AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 139 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4141 of 4168 Old 04-07-2015, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Hi all,

Got a question regarding my LG plasma. If I follow the instructions for the first test in basic settings, I have to set brightness to 51 in order for 17 to flash (below that it doesn't flash, but at 51 it doesn't 'barely' flash, it very visibly flashes). But then on the second test the instructions say set brightness so that 19 and higher flash. With brightness at 51 18 flashes, and I have to back down to 49 in order for anything below 19 to stop flashing. At brightness 49, in both tests the first flashing bar is 19.

What would be the correct thing to do here?
See if the gamma control has any effect. There may also be TV brand and model specific settings that can affect black level. I would probably choose a black 17 over a bright-ish flashing 17.
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post #4142 of 4168 Old 04-08-2015, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by asou68 View Post
It is hard to describe the problem, but in certain scenes the blacks look really "heavy" or something.
There simply isn't enough information here to really comment. I think the black level and levels near black can vary on some displays depending on the image displayed, but I'm not familiar with your model of TV to comment if such a thing could be happening. Misc pattern A5 has a rather wide range, so you might be able to see the 10% bar on the Dynamic Brightness pattern if the display has a tendency to adjust subjective levels depending on the image displayed. Otherwise I don't have a lot of ideas, unless other owners of that model might be familiar with the effect.
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post #4143 of 4168 Old 04-10-2015, 08:24 AM
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If playing back from PC, should the signal be converted into Limited RGB (16-255) when playing back those patterns, or leave at full RGB (0-255)?
Thank you
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post #4144 of 4168 Old 04-10-2015, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SoulOfUniverse View Post
If playing back from PC, should the signal be converted into Limited RGB (16-255) when playing back those patterns, or leave at full RGB (0-255)?
Thank you
See:

HTPC - Kodi Color Calibration Questions
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post #4145 of 4168 Old 04-11-2015, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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If playing back from PC, should the signal be converted into Limited RGB (16-255) when playing back those patterns, or leave at full RGB (0-255)?
The recommendation from this forum is to pass the video signal to the display with as little alteration as possible. That basically means the ideal is to retain the limited (16-235) output, since that's what's contained in the vast majority of commercial video. From a practical standpoint it may be difficult to do when using a computer, and most computers default to expanding to a full (0-255) range.
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post #4146 of 4168 Old 04-11-2015, 03:55 PM
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I don't have a colorimeter but I'm trying to get my HD TV as close to the Rec. 709 Standard as possible. I'm using a Samsung HDTV and it
has three picture modes: dynamic, standard, and movie. It also has color temperatures: cool, standard, and warm.
Those are the two most important settings I need to change if I want to get as close as possible to Rec. 709 correct? So which ones would I use if so?
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post #4147 of 4168 Old 04-11-2015, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicOrange View Post
I don't have a colorimeter but I'm trying to get my HD TV as close to the Rec. 709 Standard as possible. I'm using a Samsung HDTV and it
has three picture modes: dynamic, standard, and movie. It also has color temperatures: cool, standard, and warm.
Those are the two most important settings I need to change if I want to get as close as possible to Rec. 709 correct? So which ones would I use if so?
If you prefer a brighter picture, use standard picture mode and warm color temperature.

For not as bright, try movie and warm.

Be sure to download the AV709 disk and get your brightness and contrast adjusted.

Even with these settings, you might not be all that close.

These displays are mass produced products and don't come close to being lab grade instruments.

Which Samsung display do you have?

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post #4148 of 4168 Old 04-11-2015, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
If you prefer a brighter picture, use standard picture mode and warm color temperature.

For not as bright, try movie and warm.

Be sure to download the AV709 disk and get your brightness and contrast adjusted.

Even with these settings, you might not be all that close.

These displays are mass produced products and don't come close to being lab grade instruments.

Which Samsung display do you have?
Thanks I am using a SamsungUN40H5003 but I've searched through the web and not much comes up. You say use standard but doesn't movie get you closer to the 2.2 Gamma/6500K color temp?
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post #4149 of 4168 Old 04-12-2015, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by OrganicOrange View Post
Thanks I am using a SamsungUN40H5003 but I've searched through the web and not much comes up. You say use standard but doesn't movie get you closer to the 2.2 Gamma/6500K color temp?
That depends on the particular display. It doesn't appear that you have a gamma setting available in the user menu so you're going to have to eyeball it.

According to the pdf for your display http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/co...PRENG-0725.pdf you do have an option of two warm settings; warm 1 and warm 2. On plasmas, we usually will use warm 2 but then adjust grayscale using meters. Without meters, some have recommended using warm 1. Put up a grayscale pattern and if it looks cool, (bluish) try warm 2. If it looks pinkish, use warm 1.

As for gamma, again eyeball it. If the picture looks flat on movie mode, try standard. If it appears that you're loosing to much shadow detail using standard, try movie mode.

Sorry for not giving you better information but this is probably as good as anyone can provide without actually owning your particular display.

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post #4150 of 4168 Old 04-12-2015, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
That depends on the particular display. It doesn't appear that you have a gamma setting available in the user menu so you're going to have to eyeball it.

According to the pdf for your display http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/co...PRENG-0725.pdf you do have an option of two warm settings; warm 1 and warm 2. On plasmas, we usually will use warm 2 but then adjust grayscale using meters. Without meters, some have recommended using warm 1. Put up a grayscale pattern and if it looks cool, (bluish) try warm 2. If it looks pinkish, use warm 1.

As for gamma, again eyeball it. If the picture looks flat on movie mode, try standard. If it appears that you're loosing to much shadow detail using standard, try movie mode.

Sorry for not giving you better information but this is probably as good as anyone can provide without actually owning your particular display.
Yeah, the manual said it had two options for warm, but it doesn't. I've tried switching between all my picture modes but nothing.
I've set the basic settings for both movie and standard. Here is a picture of the two, both using the warm color temperature. Standard on top, movie on bottom.
Spoiler!
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post #4151 of 4168 Old 04-15-2015, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
There simply isn't enough information here to really comment. I think the black level and levels near black can vary on some displays depending on the image displayed, but I'm not familiar with your model of TV to comment if such a thing could be happening. Misc pattern A5 has a rather wide range, so you might be able to see the 10% bar on the Dynamic Brightness pattern if the display has a tendency to adjust subjective levels depending on the image displayed. Otherwise I don't have a lot of ideas, unless other owners of that model might be familiar with the effect.
So I've now used the AVS709 patterns to calibrate the brightness & contrast within the MadVR (video renderer) I use to play back video on my laptop & I get a similar effect in certain scenes.

Here is a screen cap:

http://s21.postimg.org/5okgyqeqf/TDKR_Blacks_2.jpg

It just doesn't look "right".
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post #4152 of 4168 Old 04-19-2015, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Since you seem to be referencing the same scene on two entirely different displays and video players, I'll suggest maybe it's as intended. The scene might look like that due to artistic intent. Basically I'm suggesting the video content could be encoded that way, and the people making the movie may not have intended for the scene to look "right". The idea of calibration is to try to get a similar look from multiple displays and video players, which you seem to be describing.

All that brightness or black-level really does on a digital display is to choose which video level is represented as the darkest shade. Anything lower than that shade is lost, and anything higher is represented as being lighter than the darkest shade. If you set brightness too low you lose information that is intended to be displayed, and if you set brightness too high then areas that are intended to be displayed as dark shades are instead represented by lighter shades. If you set brightness to the lowest setting where you can still see the bars start flashing somewhere in the range of 17-20, then brightness is likely in the range reasonably recommended by the commercial calibration discs.

I'm not familiar with your TV, but some TVs have gamma controls. Gamma controls can affect how quickly the TV comes out of black. So a gamma control may also be able to affect near-black shades and make them darker or lighter depending on the setting. Personally I use measurements for gamma, so gamma is not covered in the manual.
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Last edited by alluringreality; 04-19-2015 at 07:33 AM.
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post #4153 of 4168 Old 04-19-2015, 10:02 AM
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This movie, The Dark Knight Rises, does sort of have a "greenish cast with heavy saturation" to it for effect.
Also screen caps (made by cameras?) transmitted over the internet, aren't always a faithful rendition of what one sees in real life looking at the screen in a dark room with human eyes.


I agree the gamma being off could be the issue or perhaps computer RGB range being used instead of video RGB range in some device along the path.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass, etc., any more than we pick the ending of a play. High fidelity means an unmodified, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original artist's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #4154 of 4168 Old 04-21-2015, 06:29 AM
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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

Thanks to this disc, I adjusted my Samsung ES6150 last night, and put in a couple of movies. Looked much better. I'm confused about Samsung's "HDMI Dark Level" setting (off, dark, darker, darkest) that seems to do nothing but bias the brightness.

I couldn't adjust contrast so the white bars above 234 or so disappeared. Is that normal for some displays? I got the pink tinge at the upper reach of contrast, and got a rather washed out pattern with it set very low....


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post #4155 of 4168 Old 04-21-2015, 07:31 AM
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I couldn't adjust contrast so the white bars above 234 or so disappeared. Is that normal for some displays?
That's perfectly normal, and even considered desirable, as long as you're getting the lumens you want.
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post #4156 of 4168 Old 05-03-2015, 01:50 PM
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They are at least a couple of us who would like to use some of the patterns on a jump drive that we plug into our videoforge HDMI pattern generator.

Is there a version of the pattern disk that contains 0-255 levels in either .jpg or .png?
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post #4157 of 4168 Old 05-09-2015, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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The project is based around tga and yuv images that use the video range (16-235). I suppose someone could use an image editor or other software to expand the levels and save as a different format if they wanted. Here is a compressed file that includes the images used to create the videos.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9F...ew?usp=sharing
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post #4158 of 4168 Old 05-13-2015, 10:57 AM
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I have a question about projector picture calibration, I will be very grateful if anyone can help me with it:

I use following MP4 clips from "AVS HD 709" for picture calibration in my Epson 5010 projector (I don't have any color calibration tool). Needless to say that before doing this, I make sharpness zero and turn off all post-processing (including Auto Iris) -

"1-Black Clipping.mp4": I turn up the Brightness so that 17 to 25 flash

"3-White Clipping.mp4": I turn down the Contrast so that 230 to 234 flash

"3-Color Steps.mp4": I turn down Color Saturation so that all shades of RED are distinguishable. Though this still leaves few shades of BLUE and GREEN indistinguishable, I don't turn down Color Saturation anymore because it makes the picture dull

"4-Color Clipping.mp4": This remains a problem. RED, GREEN and BLUE do not clip in the same column. If I lower the Color Saturation so that Green starts clipping at 235, then RED clips somewhere at 247 and BLUE clips somewhere at 221.
I can indeed go to the advanced color settings and give RED a push and lower the BLUE saturation to make all three colors clip at 235. But this makes the picture reddish and dull.


Your thoughts/advice?

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post #4159 of 4168 Old 05-13-2015, 11:08 AM
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I'm not an expert, but my take on the color clipping pattern is that it's just white clipping broken down into the RGB components of white. So, I use the pattern to adjust basic contrast/white level so that each individual color does not clip below video white. I don't think the pattern was designed to adjust color saturation. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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post #4160 of 4168 Old 05-13-2015, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barefoot Joe View Post
I'm not an expert, but my take on the color clipping pattern is that it's just white clipping broken down into the RGB components of white. So, I use the pattern to adjust basic contrast/white level so that each individual color does not clip below video white. I don't think the pattern was designed to adjust color saturation. Correct me if I'm wrong.
basically correct.
at the contrast he is at, colors are running out so lower contrast.
If he had a meter and gray scale control he could work the gains to get it right.

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post #4161 of 4168 Old 05-13-2015, 10:50 PM
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Thanks for the responses! Maybe I am mistaken but my understanding is that color saturation is basically "contrast for colors". So correcting color clipping pattern through saturation controls should be a natural fit?
Also I adjust black & white clipping patterns before moving on to color clipping pattern. Isn't it wrong to tamper with brightness and contrast controls again for color clipping pattern?
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post #4162 of 4168 Old 05-14-2015, 09:32 AM
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This is an oversimplification, and I'm probably not explaining it well, but here goes...grayscale and color management should be viewed as different steps in the calibration process. Ideally, a good color management system (CMS) should not affect grayscale and visa-versa. Brightness and contrast are gross adjustments to set the dynamic range (blackest blacks and whitest whites) for your monitor, or the extreme ends of your grayscale. The color clipping pattern is designed to help you more accurately set your contrast. Although the white clipping pattern may look correct, you may be clipping one or more of the colors in white. I understand that the name "color clipping" sounds as though the pattern has more to do with color management than grayscale. The name itself can potentially be misleading. The color saturation control is in the CMS, not the grayscale. That is why your results look "reddish and dull" when using the color clipping pattern to adjust your CMS. The pattern just wasn't designed for that.

If you haven't already, download the pdf instructions of the AVS HD 709 patterns found in post #1 of this thread. It explains what each pattern is used for and how to use it. I'm going to predict a meter and software in your future as you have delved this far into disk calibration. Ask me how I know!
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post #4163 of 4168 Old 05-14-2015, 10:54 AM
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I'd add that on my Panasonic ST60, the Color control has a direct relationship with Color Clipping; that is, as Color is increased, color clipping increases. When I go into CMS, it is clear that adjusting luminance is responsible for this.

I don't use the Color control when I calibrate, just CMS with my meter, and checking afterwards, it was good to see that the colors were blinking up to the high 240's, just like white.
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post #4164 of 4168 Old 05-20-2015, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Isn't it wrong to tamper with brightness and contrast controls again for color clipping pattern?
As noted by Barefoot Joe, getting the Color Clipping pattern to display as intended may require turning down contrast. The Color Clipping pattern is not really intended as a color adjustment. Generally color is set in relation to gray, and there are other patterns that are typically used for setting the color control.
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Using the contrast clipping pattern, should I aim to have bar 253 barely flashing (squinting but its there) or should I have it a little more pronounced? Is 254 or 255 pure white?
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post #4166 of 4168 Unread Today, 05:29 AM
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Using the contrast clipping pattern, should I aim to have bar 253 barely flashing (squinting but its there) or should I have it a little more pronounced? Is 254 or 255 pure white?
Legal range video white is actually 235, but you don't have to set contrast to clip above 235. Anything above that is above white detail. Here's a good article about contrast adjustment....


http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/01/setting...u-might-think/
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post #4167 of 4168 Unread Today, 06:33 AM
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Legal range video white is actually 235, but you don't have to set contrast to clip above 235. Anything above that is above white detail. Here's a good article about contrast adjustment....


http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/01/setting...u-might-think/
Thanks for the article - I have actually read it before. The article does state that some films do go all the way up to 109%. What I am concerned about is why the AVSHD contrast clipping pattern only goes up to 253 when I thought peak white is 255.
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Video level in standart Rec709 - 1-254, but visible 253 must background 254.
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