AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 143 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4261 of 4290 Old 12-14-2015, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
the calibrate was for dark reading, like an i1pro spectro and the white patch was for refresh of the display.
the dark reading is not needed any,ore but the refresh is needed for plasma crt

what type display is the key.
refresh display, plasma and crt need the meter calibrate.
My meter seems to be reading low for ftL. On my other TVs, I've always used "non refresh display." However, on this TV, I chose "white LED IPS" for display type. Would that make a difference?
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post #4262 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 11:53 AM
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Out of curiosity I loaded from AVSHD 709 a mp4 file, 23-105% Above White (MP4-2c/CalMAN Fields/21 Step Grayscale), from the Mp4, download files at the 1st page of this thread, into Photoshop & use PS's Color Sampler Tool. This file should read RGB 246,246,246 but instead was pure white at RGB 255,255,255. Why isn't reading RGB 246,246,246 as it says in the clip?

Then I tried other files (MP4-2c/CalMAN Windows/21 Step Grayscale), same as above & another mp4 @ 3-98% gray (MP4-2c/ColorHCFR Windows/Near White). It measured 98% of RGB 250,250,250 not 230,230,230 in YCcbCr color space. BTW, the Blu-ray version of AVSHD 709 reads exactly the same as the mp4 files.

So, what gives? Is the standard RGB or YCcbCr? Attached is a photo explanation.
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post #4263 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 12:29 PM
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there is no 105% of a 0-255 scale. RGB full.
since in YCcbcr 235 is 100%, there is room to go above the 235 because max
addressing per the bit used in defining pixels is 255.
so 235 plus 5% is 246.7. this is below the max of 255 in addressing.

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post #4264 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 12:56 PM
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take note that blurays and cable boxes to a minimum extent
can go beyond 100% (235). this is known as Whiter than white.
PCs vid cards can not go beyond the fixed 235.
video made for tv is not beyond 235.
some blurays are reported as going past 235.
cable boxes are limited by the content that is 235.
even thought the standard is 240+

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post #4265 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DERG View Post
Out of curiosity I loaded from AVSHD 709 a mp4 file, 23-105% Above White (MP4-2c/CalMAN Fields/21 Step Grayscale), from the Mp4, download files at the 1st page of this thread, into Photoshop & use PS's Color Sampler Tool. This file should read RGB 246,246,246 but instead was pure white at RGB 255,255,255. Why isn't reading RGB 246,246,246 as it says in the clip?

Then I tried other files (MP4-2c/CalMAN Windows/21 Step Grayscale), same as above & another mp4 @ 3-98% gray (MP4-2c/ColorHCFR Windows/Near White). It measured 98% of RGB 250,250,250 not 230,230,230 in YCcbCr color space. BTW, the Blu-ray version of AVSHD 709 reads exactly the same as the mp4 files.

So, what gives? Is the standard RGB or YCcbCr? Attached is a photo explanation.
Hi, there is not any problem with encoding of AVSHD Disk or AVSHD Media Files if you playback them with correct way.

About the problems you see, software settings of your player you are using is producing all these problems.

Any software player when you playback a movie it expands the 16-235 to 0-255. If it will not expand then you will see the Black as 6.3% Gray. Since Black @ Data Levels (PC) is 0.0.0 while @ Video TV Legal is 16.16.16.

But when a software player will expand from 16-235 to 0-255 then all information 1-16 becomes Black 0 and all information 234-254 becomes 255. This is why you see wrong levels when you capture stills and checking them in Photoshop.

If you setup the player to not expand the levels when you will see the levels of that pattern correctly or levels of any other pattern which has been encoded for video levels.

Note: This change of the software player settings is not recommended when you playback movies from your PC, it's for displaying correctly the patterns you are testing.

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Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 12-24-2015 at 01:07 PM.
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post #4266 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, there is not any problem with encoding of AVSHD Disk or AVSHD Media Files if you playback them with correct way.

About the problems you see, software settings of your player you are using is producing all these problems.

Any software player when you playback a movie it expands the 16-235 to 0-255. If it will not expand then you will see the Black as 6.3% Gray. Since Black @ Data Levels (PC) is 0.0.0 while @ Video TV Legal is 16.16.16.

But when a software player will expand from 16-235 to 0-255 then all information 1-16 becomes Black 0 and all information 234-254 becomes 255. This is why you see wrong levels when you capture stills and checking them in Photoshop.

If you setup the player to not expand the levels when you will see the levels of that pattern correctly or levels of any other pattern which has been encoded for video levels.

Note: This change of the software player settings is not recommended when you playback movies from your PC, it's for displaying correctly the patterns you are testing.
this leads me to believe his PC connected to the tv at rgb full.
I have worked with him a little.
here is hoping he finds a way to get YCcbcr pixel format mode.

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post #4267 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
this leads me to believe his PC connected to the tv at rgb full.
I have worked with him a little.
here is hoping he finds a way to get YCcbcr pixel format mode.
Most If the user is using a PC as a source and a TV as Display, he has to setup his playback software to output 16-235, the Video Card to output RGB Full 0-255 and the TV's input to accept 16-235. Doing this he will able to see above reference white levels (236-254).

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post #4268 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Most If the user is using a PC as a source and a TV as Display, he has to setup his playback software to output 16-235, the Video Card to output RGB Full 0-255 and the TV's input to accept 16-235. Doing this he will able to see above reference white levels (236-254).
his source will be YCcbcr.

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post #4269 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
his source will be YCcbcr.
Blu-Ray/DVD/Broadcast/Satelite/Terestial signals...all of them have been compressed to YCbCr for delivery, to reduce bandwidth in transmission / file size in media discs.

There is no problem since it's software video player will do the colorspace conversion to RGB.

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post #4270 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Blu-Ray/DVD/Broadcast/Satelite/Terestial signals...all of them have been compress to YCbCr for delivery, to reduce bandwidth in transmission / file size in media discs.

There is no problem since it's software video player will do the colorspace conversion to RGB.
maybe in Europe, here the box sends YCrCb to the TV which converts it to RGB before lighting up pixels.
over HDMI over component it sends ‎YPbPr

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post #4271 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
maybe in Europe, here the box sends YCrCb to the TV which converts it to RGB before lighting up pixels.
over HDMI over component it sends ‎YPbPr
I was talking about how source signal is transmitter, while you are talking about the signal output from that devices.

The user asked about why the AVSHD patterns were not displayed correctly. We don't know other detail of his setup (seems that he using a PC), it's better to not move the thread discussion to other areas non-AVSHD related, for the remaining users that will be interesting to read stuff about AVSHD disk here.

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post #4272 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I was talking about how source signal is transmitter, while you are talking about the signal output from that devices.

The user asked about why the AVSHD patterns were not displayed correctly. We don't know other detail of his setup (seems that he using a PC), it's better to not move the thread discussion to other areas non-AVSHD related, for the remaining users that will be interesting to read stuff about AVSHD disk here.
OK Ted
I said I have been working with him.
it doesn't matter what compression is used over , sat, cable, fios, wifi, the input to the tv will be YCbCr.
so his calibration needs to be pattern in that pixel format.
And that info is/has screwd many newbees here who don't understand.
so this is the perfect place to distinguish what happens using the disc.
why expected readings are not right.
why using the pc as a pattern generator mandates
you select which format you will be using to what content.
how you can use a bluray player and disc to check if your PC is sending the right format.

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post #4273 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
there is no 105% of a 0-255 scale. RGB full.
since in YCcbcr 235 is 100%, there is room to go above the 235 because max
addressing per the bit used in defining pixels is 255.
so 235 plus 5% is 246.7. this is below the max of 255 in addressing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, there is not any problem with encoding of AVSHD Disk or AVSHD Media Files if you playback them with correct way.

About the problems you see, software settings of your player you are using is producing all these problems.

Any software player when you playback a movie it expands the 16-235 to 0-255. If it will not expand then you will see the Black as 6.3% Gray. Since Black @ Data Levels (PC) is 0.0.0 while @ Video TV Legal is 16.16.16.

But when a software player will expand from 16-235 to 0-255 then all information 1-16 becomes Black 0 and all information 234-254 becomes 255. This is why you see wrong levels when you capture stills and checking them in Photoshop.

If you setup the player to not expand the levels when you will see the levels of that pattern correctly or levels of any other pattern which has been encoded for video levels.

Note: This change of the software player settings is not recommended when you playback movies from your PC, it's for displaying correctly the patterns you are testing.
Boy, I think I've opened Pandora's box!

In my first calibrations I used the AVSHD 709 mp4 files on a USB thumb drive thinking it made no difference. In my past, I created video montages professionally on my computer purely from photos which were RGB 0-255. I was aware of needing to render my final project for TV viewing with an FX effect called Computer RGB to Studio RGB. This effect would convert all RGB 0-255 to YCcbCr 16-235, otherwise, while viewing on TVs from DVD or Blu-ray sources, blacks below 16 & white above 235 would be crushed. I believe this is what ConnecTEDDD is saying but in a more technical way.

The AVSHD 709 mp4 files I've used on the thumb drive must be rendered with the same or similar FX effect, Computer RGB (RGB) to Studio RGB (YCcbCr). Otherwise, playback on the display source would not be correct. That would also explain why Photoshop read 255 for 105%. Further test in PS loading the APL Clipping.mp4 file (MP4-2c/Basic Settingsinto Photoshop shows all blacks from 0-16 as 0 and whites 235-255 as 255. I can't explain why PS would read 16 as 0 & 235 as 255 but would explain why my earlier post PS read 255 for 246 (105% white).

As CalWldLif correctly points out, I'm trying to make sure the video is correct for my display. CalWldLif, I have downloaded a newer driver but it still refers to 59i @ 1920x1080 the best setting for my Samsung UHD. CalWldLif has suggested I try both CalMAN's calibration source using Samsung's HDMI input & AVSHD blu-ray which I have a copy of to see if the calibrations match. This is the only way to be sure but it would seen the AVSHD 709 mp4 files on the USB thumb drive would be okay to use.
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post #4274 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DERG View Post
Boy, I think I've opened Pandora's box!

In my first calibrations I used the AVSHD 709 mp4 files on a USB thumb drive thinking it made no difference. In my past, I created video montages professionally on my computer purely from photos which were RGB 0-255. I was aware of needing to render my final project for TV viewing with an FX effect called Computer RGB to Studio RGB. This effect would convert all RGB 0-255 to YCcbCr 16-235, otherwise, while viewing on TVs from DVD or Blu-ray sources, blacks below 16 & white above 235 would be crushed. I believe this is what ConnecTEDDD is saying but in a more technical way.

The AVSHD 709 mp4 files I've used on the thumb drive must be rendered with the same or similar FX effect, Computer RGB (RGB) to Studio RGB (YCcbCr). Otherwise, playback on the display source would not be correct. That would also explain why Photoshop read 255 for 105%. Further test in PS loading the APL Clipping.mp4 file (MP4-2c/Basic Settingsinto Photoshop shows all blacks from 0-16 as 0 and whites 235-255 as 255. I can't explain why PS would read 16 as 0 & 235 as 255 but would explain why my earlier post PS read 255 for 246 (105% white).

As CalWldLif correctly points out, I'm trying to make sure the video is correct for my display. CalWldLif, I have downloaded a newer driver but it still refers to 59i @ 1920x1080 the best setting for my Samsung UHD. CalWldLif has suggested I try both CalMAN's calibration source using Samsung's HDMI input & AVSHD blu-ray which I have a copy of to see if the calibrations match. This is the only way to be sure but it would seen the AVSHD 709 mp4 files on the USB thumb drive would be okay to use.
but you will not get the features of color checking.
possible different rendering tv issues that treat usb differently than HDMI
Bluray would be best.
there are other discs here that have color slides for color work.

The pixel format is in the media part of the driver package.
you need to start the program that controls the vid card and look for things like, "My digital display"
or some such tab. if you successfully loaded the media program, something listed will give you control of pixel format/colorspace/RGB.
best go back to your orig thread thou.

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post #4275 of 4290 Old 12-24-2015, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
but you will not get the features of color checking.
possible different rendering tv issues that treat usb differently than HDMI
Bluray would be best.
there are other discs here that have color slides for color work.

The pixel format is in the media part of the driver package.
you need to start the program that controls the vid card and look for things like, "My digital display"
or some such tab. if you successfully loaded the media program, something listed will give you control of pixel format/colorspace/RGB.
best go back to your orig thread thou.
It's got to be there somewhere. I'll keep looking. Have family coming until Monday & will resume calibration then. Thanks for your help!
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post #4276 of 4290 Old 01-02-2016, 11:18 AM
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Hi,

I've mounted the HDMV iso and opened it from MPC-HC (Open Disc> chose HDMV 2D disc) but it goes straight to 0% Red Saturation. The option to go to the title menu is grey and I cannot select it. How can I navigate this disc with MPC-HC? I don't want to use another media player since I use madVR with MPC-HC, while others use different rendering software.
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post #4277 of 4290 Old 01-02-2016, 12:03 PM
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Hi,

I've mounted the HDMV iso and opened it from MPC-HC (Open Disc> chose HDMV 2D disc) but it goes straight to 0% Red Saturation. The option to go to the title menu is grey and I cannot select it. How can I navigate this disc with MPC-HC? I don't want to use another media player since I use madVR with MPC-HC, while others use different rendering software.
Download the MP4 version. Much easier to use on a PC.

Henry
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X-Rite i1Display Pro, ArgyllCMS, DisplayCAL, madVR, HCFR
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post #4278 of 4290 Old 01-02-2016, 12:25 PM
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Download the MP4 version. Much easier to use on a PC.
Thanks, I'll give it a try.

Edit: This is so much easier to use. Question, though: HCFR asks for "0% gray video" - does this mean 0% black? Because in the disk there's only 10% gray and higher, not 0%.

Last edited by YonathanZ; 01-02-2016 at 12:30 PM.
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post #4279 of 4290 Old 01-02-2016, 12:30 PM
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Hi,

I've mounted the HDMV iso and opened it from MPC-HC (Open Disc> chose HDMV 2D disc) but it goes straight to 0% Red Saturation. The option to go to the title menu is grey and I cannot select it. How can I navigate this disc with MPC-HC? I don't want to use another media player since I use madVR with MPC-HC, while others use different rendering software.
Hi, AFIK, Media Player Classic HC doesn't support Full Blu-Ray Menus.

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post #4280 of 4290 Old 01-02-2016, 12:42 PM
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What files do I actually need to use with HCFR? This is all very, very confusing.

I clicked the "measure gray scale" button on HCFR and it asked me something about 11 point, so I clicked OK and now it tells me to open a file "0% gray video level", but in the 709 HD disc there seem to be 3 folders for HCFR, and inside them they're divided by percentage, so I have no idea which one to use. Inside those percentage folders, there isn't even a 0% gray option, but only 0% black. Help.
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post #4281 of 4290 Old 01-02-2016, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YonathanZ View Post
I clicked the "measure gray scale" button on HCFR and it asked me something about 11 point, so I clicked OK and now it tells me to open a file "0% gray video level", but in the 709 HD disc there seem to be 3 folders for HCFR, and inside them they're divided by percentage, so I have no idea which one to use. Inside those percentage folders, there isn't even a 0% gray option, but only 0% black.
0% grey is the same as 0% black.
Choose the 10% (increment) folder on the 709 HD disc if you're measuring 11 points (0%, 10%, 20%,... , 90%, 100%).
Choose the 5% (increment) folder if you're measuring 21 points (0%, 5%, 10%,... , 95%, 100%).

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-02-2016 at 06:54 PM.
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post #4282 of 4290 Old 01-03-2016, 07:59 AM
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0% grey is the same as 0% black.
Choose the 10% (increment) folder on the 709 HD disc if you're measuring 11 points (0%, 10%, 20%,... , 90%, 100%).
Choose the 5% (increment) folder if you're measuring 21 points (0%, 5%, 10%,... , 95%, 100%).
Oh, I see. Thank you!
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post #4283 of 4290 Old 01-08-2016, 04:00 AM
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I have my htpc connected to tv and projector. Is the best option for me to use the mp4 version or to mount the iso and use TotalMedia Theather?
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post #4284 of 4290 Old 01-08-2016, 05:13 AM
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I have my htpc connected to tv and projector. Is the best option for me to use the mp4 version or to mount the iso and use TotalMedia Theather?
It's best to use the same method that you will be using when playing movies. However, it's also worthwhile cross-checking the two, to make sure they produce similar results.
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post #4285 of 4290 Old 01-08-2016, 07:36 AM
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When playing movies I will be using kodi, so I suppose I have to use a different player for calibration.

Is it ok to use vlc og mediaplayer classic? Any changes in player settings I need to do before playing the calibration files?
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post #4286 of 4290 Old 01-08-2016, 08:17 AM
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When playing movies I will be using kodi, so I suppose I have to use a different player for calibration.
You can use Kodi to play the MP4 files, although I thought it also has a plug-in for ISO.

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post #4287 of 4290 Old 01-10-2016, 09:08 PM
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I'm about to give the AVCHD version a go in VLC... went that route just to keep the menu structure. I was going to go the MP4 route but I'm paranoid based on the results of others using them on the PS3 and other devices. I'll report back on how it works.

A stripped-down version that would burn to DVD-R SL 4.7gb would be really nice, even with just the bare min on brightness, contrast, color, tint, and sharpness.

Any thoughts of someone publishing this project to YouTube as a whole? I know the individual patterns are out there, but a channel/playlist would be quite handy for having everything in one place.

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post #4288 of 4290 Old 01-10-2016, 09:09 PM
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I'm about to give the AVCHD version a go in VLC... went that route just to keep the menu structure. I was going to go the MP4 route but I'm paranoid based on the results of others using them on the PS3 and other devices. I'll report back on how it works.

A stripped-down version that would burn to DVD-R SL 4.7gb would be really nice, even with just the bare min on brightness, contrast, color, tint, and sharpness.

Any thoughts of someone publishing this project to YouTube as a whole? I know the individual patterns are out there, but a channel/playlist would be quite handy for having everything in one place.

EDIT: VLC couldn't play the AVCHD Menus, either as ISO or mounted, and displayed a grey screen for most of the time. I guess I'll try MP4. Any best practices for calibration straight off of a PC?


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post #4289 of 4290 Old 01-18-2016, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post
Any thoughts of someone publishing this project to YouTube as a whole? I know the individual patterns are out there, but a channel/playlist would be quite handy for having everything in one place.

EDIT: VLC couldn't play the AVCHD Menus, either as ISO or mounted, and displayed a grey screen for most of the time. I guess I'll try MP4. Any best practices for calibration straight off of a PC?
Hi, YouTube re-encodes any video you will upload. So the digital levels will be changed and will not provide the same accuracy with the original encoded content.

There PC software players that support Full Menu playback from a Blu-Ray ISO, like: ArcSoft TotalMedia Theatre, CyberLink PowerDVD, Corel's WinDVD, Nero Blu-ray Player.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #4290 of 4290 Old 01-26-2016, 11:29 AM
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Just inputting my two cents, since I use both the PS3 for Bluray and also the PC through an AV receiver going to one input on my TV.

How I ended up calibrating my system was first I ran the disc through my PS3 and calibrated the TV. Then I ran the test images from the PC (via XBMC) and looked at the results. Since changes had to be made, I tweaked my video card settings as necessary to comply with the test images through XBMC.

I'm still new to all this so your results may vary.
I tried this last night, the only problem I had was setting the White Level on the PS3, the best I could do was 230-240. On the PC it was no problem, I was able to set it so 235 was flashing.

Not sure why the PS3 cannot display Whites properly but I used these setting:
http://www.cnet.com/news/ps3-blu-ray...k-the-editors/

I only have these two devices that I can display the Patterns, could I use the values from the PC to set the white value?

Last edited by FlynP5; 01-27-2016 at 08:36 AM. Reason: Wrong Information
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