AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 144 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4291 of 4343 Old 02-05-2016, 03:50 PM
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Are most blu-ray players today, without errors at the hdmi port(YCbCr)? I'm looking to get a new player with little to no errors, when I calibrate.
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post #4292 of 4343 Old 02-05-2016, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
Are most blu-ray players today, without errors at the hdmi port(YCbCr)? I'm looking to get a new player with little to no errors, when I calibrate.
Have you see this post by ConnecTEDDD?
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post #4293 of 4343 Old 02-05-2016, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Have you see this post by ConnecTEDDD?
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So many chains to consider, tv to avr to blu-ray, directv dvr, and PS4.
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post #4294 of 4343 Old 02-12-2016, 11:18 AM
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Hi all, I 'd just like to confirm that when using the black level pattern with the flashing bars, 16 should not flash, but 17 should. I came across this old thread:

For those struggling with brightness, contrast & backlight settings on LCD's

Long story short, they are saying that if 17 flashed, the brightness setting is incorrect. Instead, they say 19 should flash, and everything below that should be black. This doesn't seem right to me.
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post #4295 of 4343 Old 02-12-2016, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
Long story short, they are saying that if 17 flashed, the brightness setting is incorrect. Instead, they say 19 should flash, and everything below that should be black. This doesn't seem right to me.
There was a more recent discussion in this thread on setting the black level. Even the experts had somewhat different opinions.

The way I do it is to slowly lower the Brightness control until 16 just stops flashing; i.e., 16 is visually as black as 15 and below. At this point, 17 (and even 18) may or may not be visible, but 19 or 20 should definitely be visible, if you don't want the shadows to be crushed.

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post #4296 of 4343 Old 02-12-2016, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
There was a more recent discussion in this thread on setting the black level. Even the experts had somewhat different opinions.

The way I do it is to slowly lower the Brightness control until 16 just stops flashing; i.e., 16 is visually as black as 15 and below. At this point, 17 may or may not be visible, but 19 or 20 should definitely be visible, if you don't want the shadows to be crushed.
Interesting. Thanks. On my current set, 16 doesn't flash but 17 does with brightness set to 45. If I go down to 44, 17 totally disappears.
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post #4297 of 4343 Old 02-12-2016, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
Interesting. Thanks. On my current set, 16 doesn't flash but 17 does with brightness set to 45. If I go down to 44, 17 totally disappears.
Seems to me 45 is the right setting to use. Going down to 44 will cause some shadows details to be lost, without even improving the black.
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post #4298 of 4343 Old 02-12-2016, 04:01 PM
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What you can also do (in a dark room) is look at the surrounding black on that pattern and lower brightness until the point where it doesn't get any darker. If everything else is setup correctly (color space, HDMI black level, etc.), that should also be where 17 is just barely visible. Just an additional way to confirm.

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post #4299 of 4343 Old 02-12-2016, 05:41 PM
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Thanks, guys!
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post #4300 of 4343 Old 02-19-2016, 12:51 PM
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Hi Guys,

Is the first comment of the thread updated with the latest version?

Thanks.
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post #4301 of 4343 Old 02-20-2016, 01:03 AM
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Hi Guys,

Is the first comment of the thread updated with the latest version?

Thanks.
Yes

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post #4302 of 4343 Old 02-24-2016, 10:01 AM
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Is the MP4 version recommended for Windows machine primarily used for Kodi connected to an LG TV? If I said gamine machine instead, any difference or stil MP4 version?
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post #4303 of 4343 Old 02-24-2016, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by stevedawg85 View Post
Is the MP4 version recommended for Windows machine primarily used for Kodi connected to an LG TV? If I said gamine machine instead, any difference or stil MP4 version?
Yes, follow this guide, worked great with my HTPC picture setup.

http://lifehacker.com/how-to-get-bet...ate-1700412363

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post #4304 of 4343 Old 03-02-2016, 03:50 PM
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I don't have a blu-ray player for my TV, so I was wondering... Would it be possible to just play the raw files on my laptop and use a HDMI cable to connect it to the TV?
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post #4305 of 4343 Old 03-02-2016, 03:59 PM
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I don't have a blu-ray player for my TV, so I was wondering... Would it be possible to just play the raw files on my laptop and use a HDMI cable to connect it to the TV?
Yes. You should download the MP4 version for that.

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post #4306 of 4343 Old 03-03-2016, 07:09 AM
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The white test I could not get anything under 254 to stop flashing. Using PS4 on a 65x930C. The black test I could barely see 18 flashing, 17 was very minimal, and 16 was black not flashing.

The sharpness test I really couldnt tell what I was looking for when I raised/lowered the settings, in the video I could see the black line start to warp/bend but on my set with sharpness raised the only difference I can notice is the left bottom/top right corner boxes, the top gray box when lowered it turns to a solid dark gray box and when raised I can see the pixels and the box turns to a light gray.

Update: After further investigation the White test was flashing because I had the dynamic range set to Full. Would appreciate some advise on the sharpness test though.
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post #4307 of 4343 Old 03-24-2016, 06:01 AM
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AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but, you know, 4000+ posts

On the non-APL black clipping test: are the bar edges brighter than the bar interiors?

Like this (not my TV!):



I'm seeing this on a VT60 and have been told that this is an issue with the AVSHD disc pattern. Is that correct?

Thank you.

Last edited by fluxo; 03-24-2016 at 06:14 AM.
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post #4308 of 4343 Old 03-24-2016, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but, you know, 4000+ posts

On the non-APL black clipping test: are the bar edges brighter than the bar interiors?

Like this (not my TV!):



I'm seeing this on a VT60 and have been told that this is an issue with the AVSHD disc pattern. Is that correct?

Thank you.
What is your sharpness setting?
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post #4309 of 4343 Old 03-24-2016, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
I'm seeing this on a VT60 and have been told that this is an issue with the AVSHD disc pattern. Is that correct?
No, the AVSHD disc pattern is clean. The bright edges are the result of excessive sharpness setting.
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post #4310 of 4343 Old 03-24-2016, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
No, the AVSHD disc pattern is clean. The bright edges are the result of excessive sharpness setting.
.....which will lead to an incorrect brightness setting.

As an experiment.....leaving your brightness setting where it is, adjust your sharpness setting. Observe what happens to the edges.
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post #4311 of 4343 Old 03-24-2016, 09:15 PM
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My sharpness setting is zero, which is the universally agreed (well, almost) correct setting.
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post #4312 of 4343 Old 03-24-2016, 09:22 PM
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My sharpness setting is zero, which is the universally agreed (well, almost) correct setting.
Check your disk player and your receiver to see if they have a sharpness setting.

You can see the halo in the picture you posted.
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post #4313 of 4343 Old 03-24-2016, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Check your disk player and your receiver to see if they have a sharpness setting.

You can see the halo in the picture you posted.

As I mentioned in my post above, that is not my TV that is pictured. However, my TV looks similar.

This has not occurred using the same source device and a different display.

I can't quickly find his quote about the VT60, but David Mackenzie notes this seen on the ZT60:

"almost invisible undefeatable high frequency sharpening"

Could the brighter edges be due to that?
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post #4314 of 4343 Old 03-25-2016, 03:06 AM
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In an attempt to settle this matter, I decided to grab individual frames from the black clipping test MP4. Note: I am not sure whether it is a good idea to extract single frames in this manner, as there are a number of encoding issues etc. For conciseness, I will not go into that now.

I used ffmpeg and Adobe Premiere to extract the still images. One never knows when any given piece of software is going to work properly, so I tried two programs. I then brought the image data into Mathematica, where I can manipulate it numerically with relative ease. Let's hope that bit works!

I focussed my attention on a part of the image containing bar 16, and others, that runs from row 201 to 300 and column 1001 to 1600 of the image. Taking a line from that subimage, this is part of the array of RGB triples:



From top left to bottom right in that array are values that represent a line of image data passing through some of the black clipping bars where the representation is, apparently, 0-255, i.e. & e.g., bar 17 in the pattern should have RGB triples in the array of the form {1,1,1} Or, at least, I think this is the case. I have to say I'm a bit concerned about this RGB range business and that's something I need to investigate further.

So you can see the numerical values for the bars in the array. But you can also see that I've highlighted some weird values in there that seem out of place. For example, the bar consisting of 4s also has a {5,5,5} in it.

This is a subimage from a different black clipping test frame that has had its contrast boosted so as to reveal the strangeness:



Plotting the values for a horizontal line:



In the above, the vertical position represents the pixel greyscale value and the horizontal position represents the pixel position (i.e., the position within the line).

I'm not sure where this is going really. I haven't looked at every frame of the MP4. I am not super-confident I have approached this correctly. At every step there is the possibility of error. And none of the above sheds any light on the enhanced edge issue, as the anomalies seen there are within the bars and not at the edges.

This is all a bit perplexing.

On the one hand we have respected reviewer and calibrator David Mackenzie claiming that some of the final year Panasonic plasmas have undefeatable sharpening. This was apparent the previous year also and test patterns in the VE shootout showed some weirdness. So Panasonic's processing is demonstrably not flawless. In addition, I have seen on the black clipping test something that looks suspiciously like sharpening, even when I have all the VT60's sharpening options turned off. Moreover, selecting panel luminance low significantly reduces the enhanced edge effect to the point that it is almost invisible. That is suggestive of the possibility that the TV's processing is implicated in some way, but it is not proof.

On the other hand, over on the other forum some members are casting into doubt the integrity of the AVSHD test pattern and my preliminary look at this shows some anomalies, which might or might not be there.

--

I thought I might finish by mentioning that there is a very slight issue with the AVSHD APL patterns. They are not exactly constant-APL. The error is not very large at all, and you might think I am being pedantic. You would not be wrong to think that. But still, if you are not aware of the problem, then there is a little puzzle for you. Try to work out what is wrong and how the patterns could be fractionally improved.

That is all for now. Thanks!

Last edited by fluxo; 03-25-2016 at 03:09 AM.
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post #4315 of 4343 Old 03-29-2016, 01:47 AM
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This is playing the file back within After Effects, with brightness and contrast increased so that you can see the line:



That's a closeup of one of the flashing bars.

This is playing the file back within Quicktime Player 7:



Please note bar 24 above.

It would appear that there are some strange vertical lines within the black clipping bars and they persist for many frames. Would anyone like to comment on this?

Thanks.
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post #4316 of 4343 Old 03-29-2016, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxo View Post


Please note bar 24 above.

It would appear that there are some strange vertical lines within the black clipping bars and they persist for many frames. Would anyone like to comment on this?

Thanks.
Hi, the problem you have found it's not a pattern problem, the patterns of AVSHD disk are accurate.

The problem exist in the methology of testing you are using.

When you import video files to any Adobe software it's importing them at PC levels, so it's expanding the 16-235 to 0-255.

The results you see (the inaccurate bars reproduction) is a scalling problem that is introduced after than level expansion. These errors doesn't exist in original MP4 or Blu-Ray disk.

The errors you have found are introduced by the software you are using, because it's altering during import the original values of the pattern.

For example if you playback the MP4 file from a software player which you have configure to output 16-235, then you will see all the flashing bars below 16 to be flashing. This is the correct reproduction if you want to evaluate for errors, you can capture the image and paste it to PhotoShop to check any bars, it will be perfect.



If you import the Contrast Flashing Bars pattern, 235 and all other 236-253 bars has become 255, the same is happening to the Brightness pattern which all 16 and below bars are becoming 0.

The way you are evaluating, it will find inaccurate any video that has been encoded for video levels, since the software will always handle them as Data range video.

To proper evaluate any pattern you have to extract from original MP4 the YUV 4:2:0 file and then analyze with software where you can open YUV files and check any pixel of flashing bars with YUV eyedroper.

Another easier way is to use DVDO AVLab TPG (connect it between your blu-ray player & display) where it has a colorchecker function which will display you the digital level of any pixel by moving a cursor via it's remote buttons.

I have done both valid test methods and I have found them accurate, noone has to worry.
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post #4317 of 4343 Old 03-29-2016, 03:43 AM
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It's just an H.264 integer transform artifact. It's an example of why video compression is not lossless.

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post #4318 of 4343 Old 03-29-2016, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, the problem you have found it's not a pattern problem, the patterns of AVSHD disk are accurate.

The problem exist in the methology of testing you are using.[...]
That's really helpful. Thank you very much.

I'll have a look around and see which software options I have for YUV analysis.

I was thinking of making some patterns of my own, but if I do so, then it is important to be able to verify that my results are as intended. Hence this is a useful exercise for me.

Cheers.
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post #4319 of 4343 Old 03-29-2016, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
That's really helpful. Thank you very much.

I'll have a look around and see which software options I have for YUV analysis.

I was thinking of making some patterns of my own, but if I do so, then it is important to be able to verify that my results are as intended. Hence this is a useful exercise for me.

Cheers.
Your tests were very good (excluding the Adobe import problem which alters the test results).

If you check any grayscale pattern you will find it accurate since Y compressed but lossless.

If you check any pattern RGB level triplet of non-grayscale patterns (colors) propably you will find them +-1 levels off (or more rarely) due to compression.

That's why is better to calibrate from a calibration disk, to be able to include to the correction these errors also which will include any player internal conversions/processing errors also.

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Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 03-29-2016 at 01:27 PM.
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post #4320 of 4343 Old 03-29-2016, 04:19 AM
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The line you're complaining about will be present in YUV too.

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