AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 06:45 AM
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There are many programs out there capable of reading those bits. Indeed it's a bitstream, but it has a well known structure.

But now I'm reading your post and noticeing you talk about HD\\BR.... that's about the color reference, right? Hope you aren't talking about the disc format, 'cause I thought I could burn an ordinary SD DVD (of course containing a 709 reference)... can you explain?
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post #422 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

There are many programs out there capable of reading those bits. Indeed it's a bitstream, but it has a well known structure.

But now I'm reading your post and noticeing you talk about HD\\BR.... that's about the color reference, right? Hope you aren't talking about the disc format, 'cause I thought I could burn an ordinary SD DVD (of course containing a 709 reference)... can you explain?

Ok, let me try to clear some of this up.

First, you have to define "reading" the disc. Yes, there are plenty of programs that will show you the 1's and 0's (basically any hex editor). But, unless you really know what you are doing, reading the 1's and 0's directly is of very limited usefulness. It is certainly not useful for calibration. I don't call that "reading" the disc.

What I call reading the disc is being able to use it as it was intended, e.g. to show test patterns and use them for calibration. There are programs that can do this, but they are basically HD DVD/BD player programs. Outside of those programs, you need an HD DVD/BD player. Anyway...

As far as what you can burn to, both discs are intended for SD DVD. What you basically have is HD DVD on SD DVD, or AVCHD on SD DVD. You still need a HD DVD or Blu-ray player to read the disc.


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post #423 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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The currently hosted disks are intended to be burned to DVD media, but they're Blu-ray and HD DVD formats. They will not play from a standard DVD player. Some computers will play the disks, but unless you're using your computer to playback HD media there's too many variables to recommend doing that for calibration. Primarily these disks are aimed at HD standalone players due to the complexity of computer playback.


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post #424 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 07:40 AM
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Ok now I've got it!

When I was talking about "reading ISO contents" I was meaning looking at contents like folders and files, not hex and bits; WinRAR and WinISO, among others can do that. But probabily they can until the ISO structure is suited for DVD contents..... that's why it can't read the ISO.... just because it is not a typical ISO\\DVD structure (that is you're stating it has HD structure inside).

Now it's better! Burning in a minute!
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post #425 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 07:40 AM
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@ AVS HD 709 team
Would it be possible to extract the ISO contents? If not, could you please make that content available for download?
There are quite a few HD "driveless" players out there that can benefit from these discs.

Thank you.
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post #426 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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The next release will include a BDMV version. The disk is targeted at Blu-ray media, but it will not be in an iso file. I believe the default formats for Blu-ray media are UDF 2.5 or 2.6, so I'm not going to use the iso to set the format like it makes sense to do for DVD media.


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post #427 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Ok now I've got it!

When I was talking about "reading ISO contents" I was meaning looking at contents like folders and files, not hex and bits; WinRAR and WinISO, among others can do that. But probabily they can until the ISO structure is suited for DVD contents..... that's why it can't read the ISO.... just because it is not a typical ISO\\DVD structure (that is you're stating it has HD structure inside).

Now it's better! Burning in a minute!

Programs like that normally load the ISO as a "virtual disc" and browse the directory structure. That might be possible if the program you are using supports UDF 2.6


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post #428 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tux View Post

@ AVS HD 709 team
Would it be possible to extract the ISO contents? If not, could you please make that content available for download?
There are quite a few HD "driveless" players out there that can benefit from these discs.

Thank you.

What would you be looking for? Something like individual video files? It might be possible if you can give a little more detail on what you would need.


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post #429 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

What would you be looking for? Something like individual video files? It might be possible if you can give a little more detail on what you would need.

The content of the HDDVD version is mpeg2 (ts), and the content of the BD version is AVCHD (m2ts), correct? Standalone HD media players without HDDVD or BD drives are able to playback all those formats. If I were able to extract those formats from the ISO or if you could make those files available unpacked for download we could use the HD709 test patterns to calibrate using our media players. Another way would be to ISO the contents to normal DVD (without the UDF2.5/2.6 format). Most media players are able to playback DVD format ISO's.

Thank you.
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post #430 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tux View Post

The content of the HDDVD version is mpeg2 (ts), and the content of the BD version is AVCHD (m2ts), correct? Standalone HD media players without HDDVD or BD drives are able to playback all those formats. If I were able to extract those formats from the ISO or if you could make those files available unpacked for download we could use the HD709 test patterns to calibrate our media players. Another way would be to ISO the contents to normal DVD (without the UDF2.5/2.6 format). Most media players are able to playback DVD format ISO's.

Thank you.

We had thought about doing this, but I don't know where we stand with it right now. What you would probably get is a series of MPEG2 files, each one containing one title from the disk. We will talk it over and see what we can come up with.

Is there anybody else out there that would find this useful?

In the meantime, check out www.w6rz.net. Ron has some great patterns on his site that you can download.


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post #431 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 09:04 AM
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Guys, are those patterns suitable for use with plasma/hcfr couple? (small windows?)
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post #432 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Guys, are those patterns suitable for use with plasma/hcfr couple? (small windows?)

They should be. If you're asking how small the windows are, you'll just have to try one and see if it works for you, I don't know the exact dimensions.


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post #433 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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The windows are about the same size as DVE HD. I would have to think that something like a snow scene would be more taxing than the windows.


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post #434 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tux View Post

The content of the HDDVD version is mpeg2 (ts), and the content of the BD version is AVCHD (m2ts), correct?

The second part is right, but HD DVD uses some other format for video content. The BDMV will have m2ts without being inside an iso. Like hwjohn mentioned, I would have to think there might be virtual disk programs to mount the image if you don't have a DVD writable drive, but your computer would have to be able to read the UDF file format.


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post #435 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 12:28 PM
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Great work guys.

My questions will validate my newness to this topic no doubt.

ColorHCFR uses "IRE" and you use "% grey". Is this a significant difference?

ColorHCFR has graphs for "Near Black" and "Near White" which are in 1% steps up from 0 and down from 100, respectively. Do you plan to add these? Or do you know where I can find them?
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post #436 of 4034 Old 02-07-2008, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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The current version of HCFR can use IRE or % gray. The selection is under the measures menu then parameters. By default the program should use % gray.

The Near Black and Near White will be added in the next version.


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post #437 of 4034 Old 02-08-2008, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The Near Black and Near White will be added in the next version.

do you have a target date for the next version?
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post #438 of 4034 Old 02-08-2008, 12:18 PM
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do you have a target date for the next version?

We don't really set target dates because we work on the disc when we have free time. Right now I am the hold up (I have some encoding to do) and I'm going out of town for the weekend.

Having said that, I would guess a time frame of 1-2 weeks.


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post #439 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 09:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The second part is right, but HD DVD uses some other format for video content. The BDMV will have m2ts without being inside an iso. Like hwjohn mentioned, I would have to think there might be virtual disk programs to mount the image if you don't have a DVD writable drive, but your computer would have to be able to read the UDF file format.

Not quite.

Both HD-DVD and BRD can use the same three codecs, it's just up to whoever is creating the content. MPEG2 (which hopefully is on its way towards being a legacy codec), h.264, and VC-1. You can find discs which use any of these, in both formats. It just depends on the title as to what is used. h.264 and VC-1 are superior to MPEG 2.
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post #440 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Not quite.

I entirely miss your point. His question included ts and m2ts, which are containers. HD DVD does not store content as either of those. If someone wants to pull content, instead of using the disk, they would be dealing with the container regardless of the video codec.


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post #441 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 03:47 PM
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OK Guys, Just got a PS3 so I downloaded the AVS HD file for Blu-Ray and used ImagBurn to make the DVD - Works GREAT.
GREAT JOB GUYS!

I know (from other threads) that some of you guys have Sony KDS-xxA3000s. I found the 1080 horizontal line pattern produced an interesting (some may call it alarming, but it is more interesting than concerning) effect.


I've cranked up the color saturation a bit to more clearly show the problem. The screen takes on a predominantly pink case with a blue circle in the center and a blue irregular border around the periphery. I've sort of concluded that this really is some minor irregularities in the optical system. It isn't there with the vertical lines and is there to a lesser extent with the pixel pattern. I found that when I moved the Red vertical convergence in the service menu that the colors shifted, leading me to conclude that the issue is related to the interaction between the red, green & blue pixels.

Have you guys seen this? Any additional thoughts? I'm sure that similar things happen with other 3 imager RPTVs, but probably not with DLPs.

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post #442 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The currently hosted disks are intended to be burned to DVD media, but they're Blu-ray and HD DVD formats.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but how is this possible? I thought BD and HD DVD used blue lasers with a shorter wavelength than SD DVD players. Aren't the pits on high-def DVDs smaller and closer together than on SD DVDs?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I entirely miss your point. His question included ts and m2ts, which are containers. HD DVD does not store content as either of those. If someone wants to pull content, instead of using the disk, they would be dealing with the container regardless of the video codec.

Sorry, I was skimming quickly, but the poster you were responding to characterized it in terms of video codecs, in that HD-DVD was MPEG2, and BRD was AVC(h.264), which is not correct. I suppose I should have responded to him instead of you
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post #444 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bweissman View Post

how is this possible? I thought BD and HD DVD used blue lasers with a shorter wavelength than SD DVD players.

The players also have red lasers in order to play typical DVDs. Both formats allow some ways to allow the HD files to be played from DVD-type media.


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post #445 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Have you guys seen this? Any additional thoughts? I'm sure that similar things happen with other 3 imager RPTVs, but probably not with DLPs.

I have an XA2 and a BDP-S1. Both of my players display the lines when outputting progressive. I might get a bit of moire, but nothing like that. I do get a pink hue if I try to display an alternating 1:1 black and white image on the TV, which I'm going to guess Sony might have addressed with a new firmware http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-i...mdl=KDS60A3000 All in all that image confuses me, so maybe hwjohn has seen it because he has a PS3.

EDIT: Original comment incorrect. The Beta2 AVCHD plays as interlaced from the BDP-S1.


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post #446 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I have an XA2 and a BDP-S1. Both of my players display the lines when outputting progressive. I might get a bit of moire, but nothing like that. I do get a pink hue if I try to display an alternating 1:1 black and white image on the TV, which I'm going to guess Sony might have addressed with a new firmware http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-i...mdl=KDS60A3000 All in all that image confuses me, so maybe hwjohn has seen it because he has a PS3.

I've seen that link over in the A3000 thread, but really don't think that this is that issue. BTW, I can't seem to get my PS3 to do 1080p on the AVSHD (at least the A3000 thinks it's 1080i). Maybe that is part of the issue?

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post #447 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 05:47 PM
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I'm going to be using this disk to do a quick calibration for a friend. He uses component and HDMI inputs, and I was wondering if this program was designed for just component or just HDMI? Or can you use it successfully on both inputs?
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post #448 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Sorry, I was skimming quickly, but the poster you were responding to characterized it in terms of video codecs, in that HD-DVD was MPEG2, and BRD was AVC(h.264), which is not correct. I suppose I should have responded to him instead of you

Thank you for clearing that up. All I would need are the m2ts files in the STREAM folder of the BD version.
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post #449 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeBeauX9 View Post

He uses component and HDMI inputs, and I was wondering if this program was designed for just component or just HDMI?

All of my testing has been digital connections, but component connections should be fine.


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post #450 of 4034 Old 02-09-2008, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

BTW, I can't seem to get my PS3 to do 1080p on the AVSHD (at least the A3000 thinks it's 1080i). Maybe that is part of the issue?

Actually my Blu-ray player does interlaced with the Beta2 AVCHD. Sure enough there is the pink/red tint to the picture that doesn't show up on the vertical lines, but it doesn't look quite like the image posted. The HD DVD running progressive looks a little different, and there's a certain amount of a moire-type colored effect. I took the HD DVD video file and did a screen capture on it with my computer. The image shows 16 and 235 colors like expected. I don't think it's in the encode, so odds are that it's the TV. For what it's worth the A3000 has never been able to produce the 1:1 white/black checkerboard without introducing pink, which the A2000 could do, so I think it's possible that most recent update by Sony might clean up that image.


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