AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 20 - AVS Forum
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post #571 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Black is defined as 16 and white as 235. (235-16)/10=21.9 In sticking with those points there's a rounding that has to appear somewhere in a 10% grayscale from black to white. On this disk between 50% and 60% is a change of 21 and all the others are changes of 22. It's possible that this item related to rounding could show up in a gamma plot. It has been suggested an alternate way would be to use 236 for white so that all the steps of a 10% grayscale are an even 22 for plotting gamma, but white is defined as 235 so I have left the rounding item in. This sort of thing also shows up in near white and near black and other items that use small percentages because 1% is actually 2.19 but for the digital levels that were used to create the disk whole numbers have to be used.

All in all I question if the rounding item is what you're noticing. I don't necessarily consider it an error, just related to how the disk was created. This originally started out as merely a replacement for taking measurements from the DVE HD disk that wouldn't load far too often on my player and is still MIA on Blu-ray. My point is that a level change of 1 is probably within any other errors that might appear in the authoring process. The near white item was simply a clear mistake on my part unrelated to any small systematic errors that might appear in how the disk is put together.

Thanks for thoughtful answer. I really have no idea what you do to make these discs. I thought the dE bump at 70 was probably real, maybe software, maybe probe. Never thought it might be the DVD until your post. I posted the same question on the ColorHCFR thread. Thanks again.
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post #572 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I thought the dE bump at 70 was probably real, maybe software, maybe probe. Never thought it might be the DVD until your post. I posted the same question on the ColorHCFR thread. Thanks again.

Hold on.......when you refer to "dE bump", do you mean a change in gray scale (hence "dE")? As the gray scale patterns have (or should have) no color component, that would not be a function of the disc. I believe that alluringreality was talking about slight inaccuracies in the level of gray - not the "color" of gray.

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post #573 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I would guess in the direction of the delta E item being related to the display or meter. The encoding isn't my thing, but I think running the grayscale video through a reference decoder will result in no color component in YCbCr.


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post #574 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Hold on.......when you refer to "dE bump", do you mean a change in gray scale (hence "dE")? As the gray scale patterns have (or should have) no color component, that would not be a function of the disc. I believe that alluringreality was talking about slight inaccuracies in the level of gray - not the "color" of gray.

By "dE bump" I am referring to a higher value of dE at 70% gray that always seems to be there through a number of calibrations. It is quite out of character with the dE values for % gray readings above and below 70%. Since I only have 2 adjustments possible for the entire grayscale (offset and gain), perhaps it is at 70% gray where these two controls meet?

I don't know what the gray patterns on the DVD represent, but at least on the display gray is a summation of RGB just in the right proportion, correct? I was simply asking if 70% gray could possibly be "off" in any way, as in maybe too much or too little of a RGB component because of a typo. Again, I don't know what data are input to display the % gray windows.

I hope this answered your questions.
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post #575 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 01:19 PM
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When you look at a gradient pattern, do you see a discolouration around where 70% grey would be?

If yes, then it is something to do with the processing of your video chain.

I always put up a the gradient pattern when doing a calibration because sometimes even a single click of the contrast/brightness can introduce a noticeable error.
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post #576 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Thanks for thoughtful answer. I really have no idea what you do to make these discs. I thought the dE bump at 70 was probably real, maybe software, maybe probe. Never thought it might be the DVD until your post. I posted the same question on the ColorHCFR thread. Thanks again.

It is probably real. I would question the TV first, the probe second, and the software and test disc last.

The software and disc would be the last part of the chain I would question, mainly because you have people right here that can verify things for you. alluring and I can verify if there is a problem with the disc (like the near white issue), where as the maker of your probe/TV set is much harder to reach. In other words, errors in AVS HD (and Color HCFR) are much more likely to be found and fixed quickly because we are closely related to the community and we listen to your feedback carefully. AFAIK, the 70% pattern is accurate on RC1. The only known issue is the near white pattern.

Anyway, there is roundoff error as alluring has described, but you have to keep in mind that this error is very small. Take 70% gray for instance. We figure the digital level for 70% like this:

(0.7*(235-16)) + 16 = 169.3

We can't do 169.3, so we round down to 169. We figure the percentage error from rounding (this is just one way to get an idea):

(0.3)/(169) = .001775 = .1775%

So you see the deviation from the real 70% is extremely small. It is basically small enough to ignore given that we are working with consumer displays and, at the very best, ISF level measuring devices.

Even if you take the "incorrect" near white level pattern on RC1, you quickly find out that even that error is realatively small.

As for verifying the patterns, we don't do a whole lot of that anymore. When we first started working on AVS HD, everything was checked by hand in the digital realm at each stage... the pattern was checked for correct RGB, the encoded material was checked in YCbCr, and then the encoded pattern was decoded by a reference decoder and the RGB was checked again. After we did this a whole bunch of times (it can be time consuming), we had faith in our process and we quit checking every single pattern. The only time we have an error is when alluring or I make a human error, and those get sorted out pretty quick. I think the near white error is the first error we have ever had on an official release, and it was found within a few days of the release and reported.

So, as much as I hate to say it, it is probably your set and not your testing equipment. At one time I had questioned the accuracy of my own DisplayLT because the Red primary on my A3000 measured undersaturated where everyone else's was closer to spec. Just to make sure I sent my meter to alluring for comparision... even our relatively "cheap" DisplayLT meters were remarkably close to each other. I just had to accept the fact that my red primary was undersaturated, at which point I began developing my sinister plans to steal DaveHancock's set


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post #577 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

By "dE bump" I am referring to a higher value of dE at 70% gray that always seems to be there through a number of calibrations. It is quite out of character with the dE values for % gray readings above and below 70%. Since I only have 2 adjustments possible for the entire grayscale (offset and gain), perhaps it is at 70% gray where these two controls meet?

I don't know what the gray patterns on the DVD represent, but at least on the display gray is a summation of RGB just in the right proportion, correct? I was simply asking if 70% gray could possibly be "off" in any way, as in maybe too much or too little of a RGB component because of a typo. Again, I don't know what data are input to display the % gray windows.

I hope this answered your questions.

I will double check this for you to make sure that 70% gray is correct. It might take me a couple days as I'm tied up until Thursday night. Alluring might do it more quickly if we ask nicely.

[asking nicely] Alluring could you check this out before Thursday? Just the RGB on the original pattern to make sure it is right? [/asking nicely]



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post #578 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

It is probably real. I would question the TV first, the probe second, and the software and test disc last.

I agree with that.
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Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

So, as much as I hate to say it, it is probably your set and not your testing equipment.

He can verify that it is NOT the disc by simply turning the color control on the set to "0".
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I just had to accept the fact that my red primary was undersaturated, at which point I began developing my sinister plans to steal DaveHancock's set

I DON'T agree with that!

PS: Color errors have crept into grayscale patterns on test DVDs. The Avia DVD has color errors below 40IRE.

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post #579 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

[asking nicely] Alluring could you check this out before Thursday? Just the RGB on the original pattern to make sure it is right? [/asking nicely]

I checked the original images around 70% before the first reply, so from my usual involvement the only item anywhere in the vicinity of 70% was the shift in the rounding.


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post #580 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I checked the original images around 70% before the first reply, so from my usual involvement the only item anywhere in the vicinity of 70% was the shift in the rounding.

If the RGB on the original image is right, then the level should be correct. I didn't change anything on the encoding end that would affect levels. Basically all that has been changed in my workflow is the frame rate and some interlaced/progressive changes to the Misc. Section.

In short, all the other patterns are correct except for the near white pattern that has already been discussed.


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post #581 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post


PS: Color errors have crept into grayscale patterns on test DVDs. The Avia DVD has color errors below 40IRE.

We made a special effort to prevent that with AVS HD by thoroughly checking our workflow before releasing Beta 1. We continue to spot check things to try to catch stuff before it is released.

I think that is one potential downfall for commercial disks... if the original creators ship out the patterns to be encoded/authored by a 3rd party, then they are relying on that third party to do everything correctly. I could see it really being a problem if the original creators didn't have the tools/time/knowledge to check behind the 3rd party. It is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to check their work by taking measurements. You pretty much need to verify everything is being encoded/decoded correctly in the digital realm without relying on anything else. This in itself isn't that easy; if we didnt have Ron (dr1394) helping us then I don't know if we could have done it.


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post #582 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 07:33 PM
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However, let's put the burden of proof back on kjgarrison and simply have him verify that his dE bump occurs with the Color turned down to 0 on his set.

These kinds of bumps are not unusual on displays. Could be a design flaw in his set (I don't recall what it was), or perhaps he may have contrast too high and is getting soft clipping of IREs above 70. If he adjusted drives at IRE 90 or 100 for D65 and cuts at IRE 20-30, he could well get this bump at 70 if he is getting soft clipping at the high end. I've seen this lots of times.

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post #583 of 4034 Old 03-03-2008, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

However, let's put the burden of proof back on kjgarrison and simply have him verify that his dE bump occurs with the Color turned down to 0 on his set.

These kinds of bumps are not unusual on displays. Could be a design flaw in his set (I don't recall what it was), or perhaps he may have contrast too high and is getting soft clipping of IREs above 70. If he adjusted drives at IRE 90 or 100 for D65 and cuts at IRE 20-30, he could well get this bump at 70 if he is getting soft clipping at the high end. I've seen this lots of times.

OK, I will test with Color 0. From your first post I didn't understand what to look for with color 0.

BTW, guys I never really thought your disc could be off. I feel a bit guilty for causing so much discussion. I'm also grateful, but not surprised, that you checked already.

Thanks all. For those interested I'll report what happens with Color = 0!
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post #584 of 4034 Old 03-04-2008, 06:05 AM
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This is strange, I had the previous release burned on a dvd and it would play in my samsung bd-p1400. I burned the latest release on a dvd and it will not play in the same player. Is there a difference between the two versions that would cause this?

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post #585 of 4034 Old 03-04-2008, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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The prior AVCHD disk was created off of files files on my computer using Nero 8. There were a number of issues reported with people being unable to burn the iso, so instead I created the iso from Ulead disk this time. Do you still have the Beta2 disk that will play? (To rule out say a player firmware update causing issues) Honestly when I tried the prior AVCHD disk in the Samsung player at Best Buy it didn't work and GetGray also reported the player as not working from DVD.


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post #586 of 4034 Old 03-04-2008, 07:18 AM
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Yes I have the previous AVCHD disk and it still plays. I haven't performed any firmware updates since creating the first disk. My samsung 1400 player has has had several firmware updates, maybe that explains why yours wouldn't play in the one at BestBuy. Both discs were burned from disk utility on my mac running OSX tiger 10.4.11.

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post #587 of 4034 Old 03-04-2008, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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The process in creating the new disk is basically identical to how the prior disk was created except for how the iso was built. I could do a UDF 2.5 iso from Nero 8 to match the prior disk, but it would be a day or two for me to upload a revised .7z file to try. There was a report on the last page by a3willia saying the Samsung worked with the current disk, but there wasn't enough information to tell what exactly he was using. Anyway what I'm getting at is that your computer software might simply be having some issue with the current iso from Imgburn like people were having issues with the iso from Nero 8. I suppose there has to be some reason why Ulead doesn't offer an iso for AVCHD like they do for HD DVD.


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post #588 of 4034 Old 03-04-2008, 09:45 AM
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I have not applied the newest samsung firmware update, wanted to hear some more people's experience with it first. Guess I will try updating to the newest firmware and see if that is it. I read a3willia's post and could not tell if he had burned the file on an actual blu-ray disc or on dvd. Thanks for following up with me, I will try my firmware first.

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post #589 of 4034 Old 03-04-2008, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRussell View Post

I have not applied the newest samsung firmware update, wanted to hear some more people's experience with it first. Guess I will try updating to the newest firmware and see if that is it. I read a3willia's post and could not tell if he had burned the file on an actual blu-ray disc or on dvd. Thanks for following up with me, I will try my firmware first.

You might post this on the calibration thread of your Samsung, whatever model it is and whatever firmware you're referring to.
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post #590 of 4034 Old 03-04-2008, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

However, let's put the burden of proof back on kjgarrison and simply have him verify that his dE bump occurs with the Color turned down to 0 on his set.

These kinds of bumps are not unusual on displays. Could be a design flaw in his set (I don't recall what it was), or perhaps he may have contrast too high and is getting soft clipping of IREs above 70. If he adjusted drives at IRE 90 or 100 for D65 and cuts at IRE 20-30, he could well get this bump at 70 if he is getting soft clipping at the high end. I've seen this lots of times.

Leave it to the pro to know. "Soft clipping" ... never heard of it.

It was contrast too high. I ran a whole series of grayscale measurements with contrast 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, all with color 0. The "elbow" of the gamma curve is at IRE 50, but the worst dE is consistently at 70.

The biggest changes seem to occur at contrast settings above 92. I was lulled into a false sense of security by the absence of clipping at near white with contrast set to 98. btw, Samsung LCD 4671

Thanks, Dave.

Any additional tips are more than welcome!
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post #591 of 4034 Old 03-04-2008, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Leave it to the pro to know. "Soft clipping" ... never heard of it.

It was contrast too high. I ran a whole series of grayscale measurements with contrast 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, all with color 0. The "elbow" of the gamma curve is at IRE 50, but the worst dE is consistently at 70.

The biggest changes seem to occur at contrast settings above 92. I was lulled into a false sense of security by the absence of clipping at near white with contrast set to 98. btw, Samsung LCD 4671

Thanks, Dave.

Any additional tips are more than welcome!

I've run into this problem more often on LCDs than anywhere else. And your experience (absence of hard clipping) is what leads to this.

Dave Hancock
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post #592 of 4034 Old 03-05-2008, 01:14 PM
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It depends on how much variation you have from device to device. Most devices over HDMI are very close, provided you don't have something set up incorrectly. Most people have to use their BR/HD DVD/DVD player settings because a signal generator is required to get decent test patterns from a STB.

This is also somewhat dependent on the specific devices used. The safest thing to do is use an SD disc (like GetGray) for SD playback chains, and an HD disc for HD playback chains.

Just curious what you might recommend if have SD and HD on the same chain, as in, a BD player that would be used upscale SD DVD.

I ask because I noticed today that I was finding a fairly big difference in optimal black level settings between the AVS HD709 (bluray version) and my AVIA setup disc (sd) when played back over the same BD10A player.

Is this always going to be a problem for me? If I set proper black levels for bluray discs, I will not have good blacks on SD DVDs? Or, If I set it for SDDVD using AVIA, I will have crushed blacks on Bluray and lose shadow detail? I hope not.

If it ain't in HD, it ain't worth watching!
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post #593 of 4034 Old 03-05-2008, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Black is generally defined as color 16 in both SD and HD. For my players it doesn't matter what is used for any grayscale items because the players seem to correctly decode to the same levels. In what you present though, there are a few items that might come into play:

1) The player might not be decoding different sources to the same levels. I'm rather confident my players do not exhibit this issue, but it is possible that some players might. Without a doubt different video types being decoded to different levels is a major issue with my computer so it's possible that the same could happen with certain standalone players. 1080i AVC video doesn't actually match the majority of commercial content, so it is possible that the disk might be entirely irrelevant if a player exhibits this as an issue. One way to check this item is to measure the TV with different sources on similar patterns, but I realize not everyone is going to have a way to meaure light levels for such a check. In that case, one thing you could do is to see if anyone has checked the player model for variation with different sources. I suppose a more basic thing might be to simply check a grayscale ramp with different sources to look for where black is clipping. I'm thinking most calibration disks have a grayscale ramp, the APL should be similar, and if the player exhibiting different black levels is really a problem it might show up in such a simple test.

2) It's possible that what you're seeing is due entirely to the patterns. What I mean is that the patterns on this disk will not match the Average Picture Level (APL) of the Avia disk. The amount of light in the image, the APL, can influence the perceived setting. This can happen in a couple ways - if your TV has a dynamic setting it's possible that the black level might vary depending upon the APL, but more likely is the possibility that different APLs might cause your eye's iris to open or close and influence how high you have to set the black level to see differences in dark grays. Generally the way this item appears with my equipment is that the black clipping pattern on the AVS HD disk is absolutely the lowest that I can set black-level, and in order to make out differences in dark gray with a higher APL pattern I might have to turn up black level. What I mean is that the setting from the black clipping pattern might still be causing the grays to be different shades, but due to a lot of white in a pattern I might not be able to make out the difference without turning up the black-level. Again on my sources this isn't really an issue when I checked the AVS HD disk against the DVE, AVIA, and GetGray patterns, but it somewhat falls into a more subjective area where equipment and other settings might also come into play.


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post #594 of 4034 Old 03-05-2008, 03:04 PM
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Downloaded and burned the HD-DVD windows version using Imageburn but it does not work in my Toshiba HD-A3...all the files show up when I check it in My Computer. Any ideas?


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post #595 of 4034 Old 03-05-2008, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Have you checked the disk against the iso? There's a feature in Imgburn that can compare information. I have to assume it's a burner or media issue and trying either a different computer or disk type might clear it up, because there have been few reports of problems with the HD DVD version. It's simply a Ulead Media Factory 6+ iso, so http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146 might be of help but I'm not aware of anything special about the A3.


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post #596 of 4034 Old 03-07-2008, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by billbillw View Post

Just curious what you might recommend if have SD and HD on the same chain, as in, a BD player that would be used upscale SD DVD.

I ask because I noticed today that I was finding a fairly big difference in optimal black level settings between the AVS HD709 (bluray version) and my AVIA setup disc (sd) when played back over the same BD10A player.

Is this always going to be a problem for me? If I set proper black levels for bluray discs, I will not have good blacks on SD DVDs? Or, If I set it for SDDVD using AVIA, I will have crushed blacks on Bluray and lose shadow detail? I hope not.

As alluring stated, it sounds like this might be an APL type issue. Don't know what your set is, but maybe you could try turning off any dynamic contrast/iris setting and see if that gives you more reasonable results. I wouldn't be surprised if the patterns don't match exactly for many of the reasons already explained, but I would think they would be fairly close. You might also want to check your player to see if any of the "bell and whistle" type settings could be affecting it.

The experiments I have done (and others) with devices using HDMI have generally shown that patterns are pretty consistent, even from device to device. For instance, someone checked their PS3 a while back by calibrating using AVS HD first, then double checking it with an SD disc to make sure the upconversion was done correctly. Everything seemed to line up between the two. My PS3, Xbox 360, and A2 are all extremely close over HDMI using AVS HD.

My general recommendation is to do exactly what you are doing, that is, calibrate using HD and double check with SD. If you have a meter, try checking some of the color patterns to see if you get any variations there. If they are more consistent than the black level pattern, then it is probably an APL issue.


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post #597 of 4034 Old 03-07-2008, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Have you checked the disk against the iso? There's a feature in Imgburn that can compare information. I have to assume it's a burner or media issue and trying either a different computer or disk type might clear it up, because there have been few reports of problems with the HD DVD version. It's simply a Ulead Media Factory 6+ iso, so http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146 might be of help but I'm not aware of anything special about the A3.

Figured it out, thanks...


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post #598 of 4034 Old 03-08-2008, 09:23 AM
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Any idea when the final release with the fixes is being released?
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post #599 of 4034 Old 03-08-2008, 11:11 AM
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Any idea when the final release with the fixes is being released?

I don't think we have a schedule for it yet... we need to discuss some things and we have taken a break after RC1.

The only error that we are aware of is in the near white pattern, as disclosed by alluringreality. The next release will address that pattern. Everything else is accurate.


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post #600 of 4034 Old 03-08-2008, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

I don't think we have a schedule for it yet... we need to discuss some things and we have taken a break after RC1.

The only error that we are aware of is in the near white pattern, as disclosed by alluringreality. The next release will address that pattern. Everything else is accurate.

The default in ColorHCFR for the near white series is 5 measurements (96, 97, 98, 99, 100.) The one that is off isn't in this range. I think we can wait awhile
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