AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 3981 Old 06-17-2008, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eht View Post

One suggestion for a few additional patterns, if it hasn't been mentioned already, is a set of RGB steps. It would be nice to be able to check which channels are clipping when setting contrast.

I'm not sure exactly what you're describing. Would you be talking of something like the white clipping pattern but using red, green, and blue instead of white?
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post #722 of 3981 Old 06-17-2008, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I'm not sure exactly what you're describing. Would you be talking of something like the white clipping pattern but using red, green, and blue instead of white?

Alluring, I'm not sure but I think they are referring to step/ramp patterns for each color like GetGray has.

cheers,


--tom
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post #723 of 3981 Old 06-18-2008, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I'm not sure exactly what you're describing. Would you be talking of something like the white clipping pattern but using red, green, and blue instead of white?

Yep, exactly. Nothing wrong with the current white clipping pattern, mind you. It works great. But it would be cool to be able to check each channel individually as well.
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post #724 of 3981 Old 06-18-2008, 09:35 AM
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alluringreality, I really appreciate the 109% white window you guys have included. After a few of the conversations here, I've been protecting out to level 254 since apparently all comercial BD/DVDs use the range above 235. The only issue with the 109% window is that it's very inconveniently placed to easily check when doing free measures to adjust the grayscale. Is there any way it can be moved to the tail end of the grayscale window patterns? This would make the 109% window far easier to use.
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post #725 of 3981 Old 06-18-2008, 10:05 PM
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I watch a lot of 720p/1080p x264 video on my HTPC, and want to ensure my grayscale and video settings are correctly adjusted (decoder settings, etc.). In order to exercise my x264 decoder and video settings, I'd need to re-encode and mux this video into an MKV container, but I've no idea where to start. Anyone have any pointers?
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post #726 of 3981 Old 06-19-2008, 04:44 AM
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It could probably be done, but it would be difficult. I dont really understand why a decoder would provide video controls. What I would try to do first is figure out how to set the decoder so that it doesnt touch anything with regards to video controls. If you are using HDMI and can make sure rhe decoder isnt messing around, then you could probably use one of the existing discs to calibrate your HTPC and have that calibration apply for anything you watch. That is what I would shoot for.

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Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

I watch a lot of 720p/1080p x264 video on my HTPC, and want to ensure my grayscale and video settings are correctly adjusted (decoder settings, etc.). In order to exercise my x264 decoder and video settings, I'd need to re-encode and mux this video into an MKV container, but I've no idea where to start. Anyone have any pointers?


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post #727 of 3981 Old 06-19-2008, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

It could probably be done, but it would be difficult. I dont really understand why a decoder would provide video controls. What I would try to do first is figure out how to set the decoder so that it doesnt touch anything with regards to video controls. If you are using HDMI and can make sure rhe decoder isnt messing around, then you could probably use one of the existing discs to calibrate your HTPC and have that calibration apply for anything you watch. That is what I would shoot for.

Agreed, that's what I am in fact shooting for but having difficulty achieving that. I use different decoders for different video codecs, e.g. Cyberlink for HD-MPEG2, CoreAVC+ffdshow for HD-x264, PowerDVD Ultra for HD-DVD/BD. I'm having difficult getting the right video levels (16-235) out of my HTPC to my TV for all my viewing. That's why I figured if I could encode this video as x264 and mux it into an MKV container, then I'd be able to calibrate based on my most frequently used video path.

Unfortunately, HTPCs require endless tinkering unlike standalone players...
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post #728 of 3981 Old 06-19-2008, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes things such as different decoders can be an issue with a computer setup. The Blu-ray versions store video as m2ts and HD DVD uses a file extension that doesn't come to mind off-hand. There are ways to get the files to more common formats, but the HD containers are not used by many programs. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post12446215 is what I was using to demux for some of our testing. Anyway we have had requests along this line before, so it's possible that for the next release we might also post a more common video format such as ts or mpg for computer use.
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post #729 of 3981 Old 06-19-2008, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sperron View Post

After a few of the conversations here, I've been protecting out to level 254 since apparently all comercial BD/DVDs use the range above 235.

Let's say I select 10 commercial movies at random, and go to a bright scene in that movie. How much above white is there going to be in those scenes? I really consider this the major item of question and haven't seen this thoroughly addressed with screen-capture examples. If you want to post a few examples back to say 2000 on DVD showing above white that I can verify then I would be open to moving the patterns, but otherwise my general take is simply that few people are going to be looking at above white and it's just patterns they would have to skip when doing grayscale and color runs.
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post #730 of 3981 Old 06-19-2008, 10:03 AM
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I'm just going by what Mr.D has said. He works in professional video production and has stated:

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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

I've never found any commercially available material that stays under 235. (except maybe Avia but I regard it as useless for this very reason) Its a white reference remember not a limit.

Video looks way too clipped anyway even if you maintain all the variation up to 255. I don't think I could watch a display that clipped at 235.

Also Michael TLV who is a THX certified trainer expresses the importance of maintaining whiter then white.:

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Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

If you can live with discolored whites and soft images on the bright end lacking in detail ... by all means pump the contrast back up there. The scary thing is ... where do you stop then ...? If killing 5%-10% of the top end detail is okay to you ... why stop there? Go for 20% ... and get even bigger CR numbers ...

The train destined to image accuracy would have long since left the station.

They are certainly 2 of the most knowledgable people, in thier respective fields, that we have here at AVS. I've certainly seen a subtle but noticable improvement protecting out to 254. It's not a major deal since the pettern is on the disc at any rate.

As for screenshots, I'd have to find some online that haven't already been adjusted from video levels to PC levels. I don't have the software, expertise or desire to take such shots myself.
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post #731 of 3981 Old 06-19-2008, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sperron View Post

I don't have the software, expertise or desire to take such shots myself.

In the end what actually matters is what appears in the material you intend to watch. In that respect my take is to just skip what anyone has to say and to simply look at what actually comes on commercial disks. I find the above-white discussion interesting, but I simply haven't cared to actually check and see what appears in typical video material myself. On a windows PC it can be somewhat simple to do for DVD:

1 - First you need to be able to check levels and screen capture. The easiest way to check levels is to use the Colorcop program. This will display the RGB of the on-screen color. Screen capturing can be done by simply pressing printsceen in windows, and then you can paste the captured image into a paint program. Paint.net is an example of a free program that has a dropper tool to look at a selected color's RGB values similar to Colorcop.

2 - Make sure that you're using video levels with the patterns linked at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post14044357 All the levels should show up. You can use either program listed in #1 to also check RGB levels. If the computer is expanding levels then bars will be missing from the pattern or the RGB will not match what's indicated on the patterns. I think the default behavior of Windows Media Player is unexpanded video levels, but I've used so many players that I couldn't say for sure without rechecking.

3 - Use a calibration disk such as DVE or Getgray to check colors. For example 100% colors should show the relevant color(s) around 235 and the other(s) around 16. For example for a 100% red pattern then R would be 235 and G & B around 16, but with rounding errors a number higher or lower is somewhat common. Again I think WMP does a decent job at displaying the correct levels, but it's been a while since I've done this sort of thing myself.

4 - Once you have verified that you're using video levels (#2) and colors are displayed as expected (#3), then simply play a DVD with the same program. You can press print screen, paste into a paint program, and save. At this point you can use the programs from #1 to check how much information appears over 235.
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post #732 of 3981 Old 06-19-2008, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

Agreed, that's what I am in fact shooting for but having difficulty achieving that. I use different decoders for different video codecs, e.g. Cyberlink for HD-MPEG2, CoreAVC+ffdshow for HD-x264, PowerDVD Ultra for HD-DVD/BD. I'm having difficult getting the right video levels (16-235) out of my HTPC to my TV for all my viewing. That's why I figured if I could encode this video as x264 and mux it into an MKV container, then I'd be able to calibrate based on my most frequently used video path.

Unfortunately, HTPCs require endless tinkering unlike standalone players...

If you can't get all the decoders you are using to output either PC or Video levels, then you are probably always going to have problems unless you are going to switch TV settings based on the decoder you are currently using.

I still think the right thing to do is to get all the decoders to output a standardized signal. If that doesn't seem to be possible, then the first thing to do is try to demux the AVCHD disc and then remux it to MKV without doing any re-encoding. Do you know if CoreAVC will decode AVCHD?

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post #733 of 3981 Old 06-19-2008, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

In the end what actually matters is what appears in the material you intend to watch. In that respect my take is to just skip what anyone has to say and to simply look at what actually comes on commercial disks. I find the above-white discussion interesting, but I simply haven't cared to actually check and see what appears in typical video material myself. On a windows PC it can be somewhat simple to do for DVD:

1 - First you need to be able to check levels and screen capture. The easiest way to check levels is to use the Colorcop program. This will display the RGB of the on-screen color. Screen capturing can be done by simply pressing printsceen in windows, and then you can paste the captured image into a paint program. Paint.net is an example of a free program that has a dropper tool to look at a selected color's RGB values similar to Colorcop.

2 - Make sure that you're using video levels with the patterns linked at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post14044357 All the levels should show up. You can use either program listed in #1 to also check RGB levels. If the computer is expanding levels then bars will be missing from the pattern or the RGB will not match what's indicated on the patterns. I think the default behavior of Windows Media Player is unexpanded video levels, but I've used so many players that I couldn't say for sure without rechecking.

3 - Use a calibration disk such as DVE or Getgray to check colors. For example 100% colors should show the relevant color(s) around 235 and the other(s) around 16. For example for a 100% red pattern then R would be 235 and G & B around 16, but with rounding errors a number higher or lower is somewhat common. Again I think WMP does a decent job at displaying the correct levels, but it's been a while since I've done this sort of thing myself.

4 - Once you have verified that you're using video levels (#2) and colors are displayed as expected (#3), then simply play a DVD with the same program. You can press print screen, paste into a paint program, and save. At this point you can use the programs from #1 to check how much information appears over 235.

For what its worth, Charles Poynton has stated that most commercial DVDs actually do contain above white data in highlights. When I asked, he suggested maintaining grayscale/gamma/etc. all the way through 254 when possible.

I think most of the experts agree that it is important to preserve WTW. Whether or not the pattern is moved as a matter of convenience is up to you.

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post #734 of 3981 Old 06-19-2008, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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For anyone that might find it interesting http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13486170 is what hwjohn is refering to. Poynton also does say - To maximize image quality, undershoots and overshoots should be preserved through the signal chain as long as possible even if they are eventually clipped. Anyway, my general take on the whole discussion is that it's a tradeoff one way or another with a digital display because the displays only have a certain amount of contrast. You can either try to maximize black to white contrast or you can maintain grayscale through peak white which reduces black to white contrast. My overly practical perspective is that if someone says "the headroom region has been increasingly used to accommodate specular highlights" then I'd like specific examples so I can see what's being discussed.
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post #735 of 3981 Old 06-21-2008, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I decided to do the test I previously mentioned to look for above white in movies. I used Windows Media player with DVDs. My computer can be said to have a rounding error of around +/- 1 from the expected RGB values. Black might range from say 15-17 and white between 234-236.

As you can tell I only buy very high-brow movies, so first up was Wedding Crashers. Going by the "specular highlights" comment from Poynton it wasn't hard to find examples of above white material included in the disk. In this example there are RGB values that exceed 235 in reflections on the wine glasses and on the faces.


The second disk was The Girl Next Door, and again it wasn't hard finding multiple examples of where reflections or highlights exceeded white. In this example there are pixels in the left side of the hair that are above white.


Being 2 for 2 I decided it was enough to simply agree with the comment that "the headroom region has been increasingly used to accommodate specular highlights". I'm still not sure I'd calibrate grayscale flat all the way to 254 on a digital display, but I do have to say that I agree some information is certainly lost if levels are expanded from video to computer levels.
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post #736 of 3981 Old 06-21-2008, 12:13 PM
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alluring,

Great examples of headroom above 235! My practice is to calibrate grayscale to 235, and also set displays to not clip (or visibly discolor) to 254.

Now, what about the bottom end? The region below 16? Should we set the black level so that we can see below 16 (say 10, for example), or not (can't see 15)? My practice, and I believe that is the practice of others, is no (set so can't see 15).

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post #737 of 3981 Old 06-21-2008, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

alluring,

Great examples of headroom above 235! My practice is to calibrate grayscale to 235, and also set displays to not clip (or visibly discolor) to 254.

Now, what about the bottom end? The region below 16? Should we set the black level so that we can see below 16 (say 10, for example), or not (can't see 15)? My practice, and I believe that is the practice of others, is no (set so can't see 15).

It is correct to set below black so that it is not visible, e.g. anything below digital 16 blends in with digital 16.

It is worthwhile to note that whoever is mastering these commercial discs is putting data in the WTW region intentionally. Evidently this has been become common practice. As far as I know, data is not being placed in the BTB region intentionally.

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post #738 of 3981 Old 06-21-2008, 03:54 PM
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I must admit that my request wasn't so much that I'm too lazy to navigate to the 254 pattern, but more that it eats into those 10 minute I have before I have to recalibrate my i1 pro which is already a pain in the butt. I'm using the PS3 which is supposed to be speedy, I can't even imagine how slow navigating the disc must be for some of the stand alone owners out there.
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post #739 of 3981 Old 06-21-2008, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

It is worthwhile to note that whoever is mastering these commercial discs is putting data in the WTW region intentionally. Evidently this has been become common practice. As far as I know, data is not being placed in the BTB region intentionally.

I'll bet that data is being knowingly placed BTB. But if/when that happens it is likely viewed on a calibrated monitor, and the decision is made that loss of the information in those lower blacks is consistent with the "look" that the director wants to achieve.

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post #740 of 3981 Old 06-22-2008, 04:07 PM
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I posted this in another thread, but I was hoping I would get some more insights over here.

I have a Samsung PN58A550 plasma. With my PS3, I used AVS HD 709 and the color bar pattern from my Black Hawk Down BD to calibrate the brightness. I got 57 according to AVS HD 709, 52 according to the Pluge bars from the BD.

So does anyone know why the big difference? I have no idea which brightness setting I should be using to watch BDs. BTW, I also used SD Avia being upconverted to 1080p by the PS3 which yielded yet another brightness setting of 55 (I suppose I could use this setting for watching SD DVDs), but I'm more surprised about the difference between the two HD discs.

Just FYI, I did carefully follow the instructions from the first post for setting the black level. With the Pluge bars from the BD, I set the brightness where you can just barely see the right-most bar. This was all done in a dark room with a bias light behind the TV. The contrast was set at the same level for all the readings. Both HD discs and SD Avia yielded the exact same settings for color and tint.
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post #741 of 3981 Old 06-22-2008, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classical View Post

I posted this in another thread, but I was hoping I would get some more insights over here.

I have a Samsung PN58A550 plasma. With my PS3, I used AVS HD 709 and the color bar pattern from my Black Hawk Down BD to calibrate the brightness. I got 57 according to AVS HD 709, 52 according to the Pluge bars from the BD.

So does anyone know why the big difference? I have no idea which brightness setting I should be using to watch BDs. BTW, I also used SD Avia being upconverted to 1080p by the PS3 which yielded yet another brightness setting of 55 (I suppose I could use this setting for watching SD DVDs), but I'm more surprised about the difference between the two HD discs.

Just FYI, I did carefully follow the instructions from the first post for setting the black level. With the Pluge bars from the BD, I set the brightness where you can just barely see the right-most bar. This was all done in a dark room with a bias light behind the TV. The contrast was set at the same level for all the readings. Both HD discs and SD Avia yielded the exact same settings for color and tint.

I don't know about the BD disc. There could be a number of reasons why it gives a different reading. If you could explain what the pattern looks like, then we might be able to offer some advice.

As for SD Avia (and other pluge type patterns), they can lead to overshoot/undershoot on the brightness control because they don't have the same granularity offered by AVS HD. In other words, the two bars on Avia are more than 1 digital step apart, so you never know exactly where digital 15 blends with digital 16, and where digital 17 is visible above digital 16. There is something like 4-5 digital step between each bar on the typical pluge pattern. It simply isn't "fine" enough to nail it exactly, although they get you pretty close.

AVS HD was designed to allow you to nail it down as close as possible. The only concern you would have with AVS HD is with the APL (average picture level). The flashing black bars pattern has a low APL, which can cause things like "Auto Iris" to compensate by allowing more/less light from a backlight/lamp. This is why we offer the "APL pattern." That pattern has a mid level APL and should be used to check your brightness setting from the flashing black bars pattern. If the same setting holds for both patterns, then you are good to go. If it does not hold, then you have to decide which way to go and what concessions to make.

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post #742 of 3981 Old 06-22-2008, 07:16 PM
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Thanks for your response, hwjohn. On AVS HD, I did check the "APL pattern" to verify the black-level setting that I got from the initial "flashing black bars" pattern. It seemed to indicate that the setting was okay.

The pattern on my Black Hawk Down BD is an "easter egg" that can be found on most Sony Pictures BDs. It's just the typical SMPTE color bar pattern. I followed the instructions from here to set the black level using the Pluge bars, which is to set it at a point where the right bar is barely visible while the left and middle bars are not visible.

Again, the brightness should be set at 52 according to the BD's Pluge bars or at 57 according to AVS HD. If the brightness is set at 52, you can't see any flashing bars at all in the AVS HD pattern. If the brightness is set at 57, for the BD's Pluge bars, the left and middle bars are still not visible but the right bar is clearly visible rather than barely visible. If the brightness is bumped up one notch to 58, I can just start seeing the middle bar in the Pluge pattern. So what seems to be happening is that AVS HD is setting the brightness at a point where the right bar is at its most visible without exposing the other two bars, in contrast to setting the brightness to where the right bar is just barely visible.

I take it that one ought to be watching upconverted SD DVDs at the same brightness level as for Blu-rays (and the difference in brightness for SD Avia was due to the imprecision of its Pluge pattern)?
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post #743 of 3981 Old 06-23-2008, 01:01 AM
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Since the grayscale is the same for both SD and HD, there should be no difference, in the settings, between those two. I find that setting the Brightness using a low APL test pattern yields better results, if done per the instructions, and gives me a better contrast ratio (especially on displays that are black level challenged).

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post #744 of 3981 Old 06-23-2008, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classical View Post

Again, the brightness should be set at 52 according to the BD's Pluge bars or at 57 according to AVS HD. If the brightness is set at 52, you can't see any flashing bars at all in the AVS HD pattern. If the brightness is set at 57, for the BD's Pluge bars, the left and middle bars are still not visible but the right bar is clearly visible rather than barely visible.

There are a number of digital steps between the three bars on the pluge pattern like hwjohn mentioned. The thing about those pluge instructions you linked is that they're really more relevant to CRT displays. CRT has a different response than digital displays and you really don't get as much into crush/clip if you're using an analog display. Also CRT might have a higher gamma than many digital displays, which will determine how bright the right bar on the pluge gets.

From what you're describing, the two patterns match. All you're really seeing is the difference in 'steps' between the bars on the two patterns. You can use the 52 setting from the pluge pattern if you want, but it sounds like you'll be losing dark gray information out to around 24 or 25 (I think the pluge uses +/- 4% bars). The flashing patterns on the AVS disk can give you an idea how many digital levels above black that you'll be losing if you use a setting lower than 57.


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I take it that one ought to be watching upconverted SD DVDs at the same brightness level as for Blu-rays (and the difference in brightness for SD Avia was due to the imprecision of its Pluge pattern)?

That's correct. Going by your settings listed it seems Avia has a smaller 'step' than the pluge, which is most likely why the AVS and Avia settings were closer together. Grayscale for SD and HD are expected to be the same like CT_Wiebe mentioned, so it's likely that you can use the same brightness for SD and HD.
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post #745 of 3981 Old 06-23-2008, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by classical View Post

Thanks for your response, hwjohn. On AVS HD, I did check the "APL pattern" to verify the black-level setting that I got from the initial "flashing black bars" pattern. It seemed to indicate that the setting was okay.

The pattern on my Black Hawk Down BD is an "easter egg" that can be found on most Sony Pictures BDs. It's just the typical SMPTE color bar pattern. I followed the instructions from here to set the black level using the Pluge bars, which is to set it at a point where the right bar is barely visible while the left and middle bars are not visible.

Again, the brightness should be set at 52 according to the BD's Pluge bars or at 57 according to AVS HD. If the brightness is set at 52, you can't see any flashing bars at all in the AVS HD pattern. If the brightness is set at 57, for the BD's Pluge bars, the left and middle bars are still not visible but the right bar is clearly visible rather than barely visible. If the brightness is bumped up one notch to 58, I can just start seeing the middle bar in the Pluge pattern. So what seems to be happening is that AVS HD is setting the brightness at a point where the right bar is at its most visible without exposing the other two bars, in contrast to setting the brightness to where the right bar is just barely visible.

I take it that one ought to be watching upconverted SD DVDs at the same brightness level as for Blu-rays (and the difference in brightness for SD Avia was due to the imprecision of its Pluge pattern)?

I think alluringreality already summed it up for you. The patterns on Avia and other discs are accurate, they just aren't "fine" enough to see every digital step and really nail down the brightness setting. If there is one thing that AVS HD does better than any disc I have seen, it is the brightness pattern. You can thank alluring for finding that one.

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post #746 of 3981 Old 06-23-2008, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

That's correct. Going by your settings listed it seems Avia has a smaller 'step' than the pluge, which is most likely why the AVS and Avia settings were closer together.

I can't recall for sure if the original Avia is the same but Avia II has bars that are +1 and +2 IRE above black. Assuming 7.5 IRE is reference black then 1 IRE above that is a little greater than 1% amplitude. I'm guessing this is mapped to 19 in the digital domain since it appears just a bit brighter on my display than the GetGray +1% bar which is labeled 18. So, as Alluring said, all the numbers you got make sense with the disc patterns that you used to get them.

cheers,


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post #747 of 3981 Old 06-23-2008, 01:28 PM
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Thanks, guys, for all the replies. It makes perfect sense now and my mind is set at ease. I'll certainly start recommending AVS HD to anyone who'll listen.
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post #748 of 3981 Old 06-27-2008, 04:56 AM
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Is a 1080P 24htz version of Blu-Ray still on the way?
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post #749 of 3981 Old 06-27-2008, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Is a 1080P 24htz version of Blu-Ray still on the way?

Assuming you are talking about the AVCHD version and not the BD-RE version, it is up in the air. There are some things that have limited our capability to do 1080p/24 AVCHD with low cost software. There has been some development in some freeware tools that are going in the right direction, but it will still be a while before you see a 1080p/24 AVCHD version.

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post #750 of 3981 Old 06-28-2008, 08:06 AM
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In the black clipping test i can only see numbers 17 and above flashing. 16 and below are never flashing. in the white clipping test only 233 is ever flashing. from what i can tell 234 and above are never flashing. 234 should be flashing at least right? I'm i having a serious problem here? i'm using the toshiba hd-ep35 and the panasonic dmp-bd30 hdmi outputs throught the yamaha rx-v1800 connected to the pioneer lx608d. Please help.
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