AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 26 - AVS Forum
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post #751 of 4000 Old 06-28-2008, 10:25 AM
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It sounds like the signal is being clipped to video levels before it reaches the TV. Try hooking the HD or BD player directly to the TV and see if it still exhibits that behavior. If the signal is no longer clipped, then your receiver is the causing the clipping.
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post #752 of 4000 Old 06-28-2008, 10:21 PM
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Or the BD30 (or whatever source you are using) is doing the clipping. Check your user manuals. Most BD (and HD-DVD) players and displays have settings for the video grayscale range (they don't call it that though). You should also make sure that your Yamaha RX-V1800 is set to the "HDMI Pass-Through" mode and not adding any other video processing.

sperron's suggestion of going directly from your source to your display (as a test) will rule out the AVR as the cause.

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post #753 of 4000 Old 06-29-2008, 03:35 AM
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I already know it's the yamaha that's doing the clipping. i have already connected both sources straight to the tv and there's no clipping that way. after further tests i can see subtle flashing at 234 not heavy flashing. what i'm asking is bd/dvd/hddvd video playback okay with colors not flashing from 16 and below and 235 and above? i need to have the players connected to the amp through hdmi for hd audio.
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post #754 of 4000 Old 06-29-2008, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

I already know it's the yamaha that's doing the clipping. i have already connected both sources straight to the tv and there's no clipping that way. after further tests i can see subtle flashing at 234 not heavy flashing. what i'm asking is bd/dvd/hddvd video playback okay with colors not flashing from 16 and below and 235 and above? i need to have the players connected to the amp through hdmi for hd audio.

It isn't the best option, but it isn't the end of the world either. You might want to see if you can get the receiver to pass it through. Below 16 doesn't really matter as much as above 235, but you should keep both if possible (for signal processing reasons). I really wish that manufacturers would come up with playback devices that have two HDMI outputs, one for audio and one for video.

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post #755 of 4000 Old 06-30-2008, 12:11 AM
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Should numbers 16 and 235 (ref black and white) flash? because they are not flashing now. i read on these forums about the yamahas 1800/3800 having problems with color clipping. i guess the european version is the same. i think i will email yamaha and ask if there's a firmware update.
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post #756 of 4000 Old 06-30-2008, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

Should numbers 16 and 235 (ref black and white) flash? because they are not flashing now. i read on these forums about the yamahas 1800/3800 having problems with color clipping. i guess the european version is the same. i think i will email yamaha and ask if there's a firmware update.

If brightness is set correctly, then 16 will not flash. However, it is important to be able to see 16 when the brightness is set too high in order to correctly set the brightness control.

Ideally (and there is some controversy on this), 235 should always be visible in my opinion. For that matter, all the way up to 254 should be visible and have good grayscale (no color shifting). However, if you can't make this happen it isn't the end of the world. It has been shown that at least some DVDs (probably most) make use of the area from 235-254 for "specular highlights." alluring reality gives a couple examples a few posts back. If you clip everything past 235, then you are clipping those highlights. Much worse things can certainly be done, but you should try to prevent this if possible.

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post #757 of 4000 Old 06-30-2008, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post

Should numbers 16 and 235 (ref black and white) flash?

The flashing happens as brighter or darker shades are displayed. If your receiver reduces the range to 16-235, then 16 and 235 are the darkest and brightest shades. They will not flash because there aren't any darker or brighter shades to alternate between and cause the flashing.
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post #758 of 4000 Old 06-30-2008, 06:40 PM
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Just wanted to send you guys a quick thanks for this. As I don't have the sophisticated equipment of an ISF calibrator I can only use the first chapter and the misc. patterns... but those were extremely helpful for brightness/sharpness/contrast settings. The patterns also let me know my top right corner has a little horizontal alignment issue, but again, thanks to Dave, i now have a better idea how to tackle it than before. Thanks again guys for all the time and effort.
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post #759 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 11:28 AM
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I don't have a BR or HD-DVD player. Would these calibration downloads work itilizing them on something like a 360? I have 2 new HD sets that I would like to do some basic calibration on. I already have an older 60" LCD that I had calibrated and I just noticed how different and better it looks than my current 37" LCD. I would like to do some basic adjustments when my 65" plasma comes in. Thanks in advance.
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post #760 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogbuehi View Post

I don't have a BR or HD-DVD player. Would these calibration downloads work itilizing them on something like a 360? I have 2 new HD sets that I would like to do some basic calibration on. I already have an older 60" LCD that I had calibrated and I just noticed how different and better it looks than my current 37" LCD. I would like to do some basic adjustments when my 65" plasma comes in. Thanks in advance.

The HD DVD disc will work with the 360, but only if you have the HD DVD add on. It won't work in the built in 360 drive.

AVS HD 709 - Free calibration disks
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post #761 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I think the 360 can stream HD video from a computer, but I've never used mine for that and I'm not so sure if it would be able to play either video formatting. I would guess it might be able to play .ts, but even if you ran the Blu-ray m2ts through tsMuxer I don't know if the xbox would play the mpeg4 video in a .ts file format. For the next release there's a chance that we might release the video as a more common computer-type video.


GENERAL QUESTION:
Assuming we release the disk as video files, any personal preference on encoding type? The current plans are to possibly release the Blu-ray versions as 24p AVC and the HD DVD in the current 24p mpeg2 from pulldown. My thought would be to release the video file version as 1080i mpeg2 video .ts files, being how that would generally match US high-def recordings. Aside from that sort of use to calibrate for HD recordings, I'm still unclear on how these patterns would be useful for other applications.
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post #762 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

GENERAL QUESTION:
Assuming we release the disk as video files, any personal preference on encoding type? The current plans are to possibly release the Blu-ray versions as 24p AVC and the HD DVD in the current 24p mpeg2 from pulldown. My thought would be to release the video file version as 1080i mpeg2 video .ts files, being how that would generally match US high-def recordings. Aside from that sort of use to calibrate for HD recordings, I'm still unclear on how these patterns would be useful for other applications.

What's the goal? I can already mount the ISO, rip it to mpg2 and convert to any format I like. Is the goal just to make it easier for folks that don't know how to do this? (I'm not saying it's a bad goal - I'm just wondering. I might I have missed earlier comments in this thread.)

Maybe I'm in the weeds, but would a lossless format make the most sense? Perhaps wrapped in something universal, like AVI? Given the patterns I would think that compression would be very, very high, so a lossless AVI file would still be of a reasonable size.
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post #763 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

The HD DVD disc will work with the 360, but only if you have the HD DVD add on. It won't work in the built in 360 drive.

I actually don't have a HD-DVD add-on. I can only utilize a DVD player. Is there a way calibrate an HD set with just a DVD?
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post #764 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogbuehi View Post

Is there a way calibrate an HD set with just a DVD?

There's not all that much difference between the formats, and DVD would probably make more sense for general calibration than streaming that I mentioned.
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post #765 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyFunBoater View Post

What's the goal? I can already mount the ISO, rip it to mpg2 and convert to any format I like. Is the goal just to make it easier for folks that don't know how to do this?

There have been a few requests for the video from the disks in something other than m2ts or whatever vob-type video that HD DVD uses. Basically, yes it's to make the patterns more accessible for general computer use rather than having to know how it's possible to make any conversions yourself. Aside from HD DVD, Blu-ray, and 1080i recordings there's not much content at 1920x1080 that I can think of, so 1080i mpeg2 was the most coherent thing I could think of to fulfill the request. Basically the question was if this happened to be in line with whatever use that might have been intended with the requests to offer the video in a more computer-centered format.
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post #766 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

There's not all that much difference between the formats, and DVD would probably make more sense for general calibration than streaming that I mentioned.

So is there a place to download a file like the one on this thread for use on a DVD? Or will these ones work?
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post #767 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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For DVD there's GetGray, TomHuffman's sticky has a basic disk with such things as color patterns, then there's Avia or Digital Video Essentials which can be purchased or else rented from places like Netflix or some libraries. As-is, there's no standard DVD players that will play these disks.
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post #768 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 07:01 PM
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I guess maybe I was sounding confusing. I wasn't trying to play a BR or HD-DVD disc. I was trying to see if I could burn the files on this site to DVD and just use a 360 (no add-on) to calibrate my sets. If these files don't work like that, is there a file I could download to a DVD that would work? Preferrably something more simplistic as I don't have the technical equipment to calibrate. I do know how to utilize the service menu, so even some test patterns for overscan and such would be really great.
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post #769 of 4000 Old 07-09-2008, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogbuehi View Post

I guess maybe I was sounding confusing. I wasn't trying to play a BR or HD-DVD disc. I was trying to see if I could burn the files on this site to DVD and just use a 360 (no add-on) to calibrate my sets. If these files don't work like that, is there a file I could download to a DVD that would work? Preferrably something more simplistic as I don't have the technical equipment to calibrate. I do know how to utilize the service menu, so even some test patterns for overscan and such would be really great.

Maybe GetGray is what you need?
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post #770 of 4000 Old 07-10-2008, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogbuehi View Post

I guess maybe I was sounding confusing. I wasn't trying to play a BR or HD-DVD disc. I was trying to see if I could burn the files on this site to DVD and just use a 360 (no add-on) to calibrate my sets. If these files don't work like that, is there a file I could download to a DVD that would work? Preferrably something more simplistic as I don't have the technical equipment to calibrate. I do know how to utilize the service menu, so even some test patterns for overscan and such would be really great.

In short, no, it won't work. However, GetGray is downloadable and so is Tom Huffman's disc in his sticky, although they are not HD. The bottom line is that you have to have an HD drive to playback HD material, unless you are going to stream it somehow.

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post #771 of 4000 Old 07-10-2008, 03:54 PM
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Thanks
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post #772 of 4000 Old 07-10-2008, 10:59 PM
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Thanks, I will check that out!
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post #773 of 4000 Old 07-11-2008, 10:21 AM
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I'm getting the GetGray as I post. So how do you calibrate an HD set without and HD image test pattern? I'm just asking some questions to get a better feel for this calibration stuff.
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post #774 of 4000 Old 07-11-2008, 10:56 AM
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I would love to have these patterns individually downloadable. I dont have a BD or HDDVD player in my comp. Using a TVIX for playing my movies. Is there some way to get these patterns exept in a iso-file?
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post #775 of 4000 Old 07-11-2008, 11:25 AM
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So GetGray is not available free? Is it necessary to pay $25 to download it from their site?
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post #776 of 4000 Old 07-11-2008, 08:22 PM
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Yes you have to pay. It actually is a more relevant version of other calibration discs put together by somebody of his own accord to help out the unexperienced person trying to calibrate there set.
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post #777 of 4000 Old 07-12-2008, 06:16 PM
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Gray-Scale calibration with the Spyder2Express on a new Haier HL37E LCD TV
____________________________________________________________ ___________
I have taken advantage of the excellent work done by those in the AVS Forums, and wish to report my experience with the Spyde2Express colorimeter. Others have expressed concern about the reliability of this instrument, but I believe my unit works very well. I measured the temperature sensitivity sensing Color Temperature of the 60% IRE and find that the reading increases fairly lineraly about 0.1% per degree F., and at a constant temperature of 85 degrees the Color Temperature repeats within +/- 0.2 %. I am setting the measuring time at 300 ms using the option of auto adjustment of the averaging to minimize the variability at low light levels. The total measuring time is less than 4 minutes for the 11 readings from 0 t0 100% IRE
I have measured the Gray-Scale Color Temperature on more than 5 different days, and find the variability to be less than 3% at any of the readings from 20 to 100% IRE levels. I do find that my Color temperatures at 60 and 70 % IRE are about 8% higher then the other levels, and so far I have not found adjustments on the TV to make all of the readings closer to 6500. My question is does this represemt an error in the colorimeter, an error in the AVCHD disc, an error in the software, or a combination.
I think these results are quite good, and I would be interested in reports from others using different colorimeters.
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post #778 of 4000 Old 07-12-2008, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knnirs View Post

Gray-Scale calibration with the Spyder2Express on a new Haier HL37E LCD TV
____________________________________________________________ ___________
I have taken advantage of the excellent work done by those in the AVS Forums, and wish to report my experience with the Spyde2Express colorimeter. Others have expressed concern about the reliability of this instrument, but I believe my unit works very well. I measured the temperature sensitivity sensing Color Temperature of the 60% IRE and find that the reading increases fairly lineraly about 0.1% per degree F., and at a constant temperature of 85 degrees the Color Temperature repeats within +/- 0.2 %. I am setting the measuring time at 300 ms using the option of auto adjustment of the averaging to minimize the variability at low light levels. The total measuring time is less than 4 minutes for the 11 readings from 0 t0 100% IRE
I have measured the Gray-Scale Color Temperature on more than 5 different days, and find the variability to be less than 3% at any of the readings from 20 to 100% IRE levels. I do find that my Color temperatures at 60 and 70 % IRE are about 8% higher then the other levels, and so far I have not found adjustments on the TV to make all of the readings closer to 6500. My question is does this represemt an error in the colorimeter, an error in the AVCHD disc, an error in the software, or a combination.
I think these results are quite good, and I would be interested in reports from others using different colorimeters.

I'm going to attempt to comment on your post, although I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying.

As far as the Spyder 2 results you mention, it is important to remember that a meter can be repeatable but not accurate. In other words, it can give the same reading over and over (as yours has done), but that does not guarantee that the reading is correct (accurate). In general, the Spyder 2 has been found by many to be less accurate than other meters. It's difficult to say if yours is accurate or not without comparing it to another meter whose accuracy you are confident in.

As for the 8% increase in color temperature, that isn't an uncommon thing. You can pretty much rule out the disc or the software causing the increase. It could be your meter, but I would say that it is probably just your set. You may be able to tweak it in further.

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post #779 of 4000 Old 07-13-2008, 05:35 AM
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Regarding the Spyder2, as mentioned by knnirs:

I've had a Spyder2 for about 18 months and it was always very consistent in the readings. And after calibration the picture looked very good. Of course I have no idea if it actually was very good - it's possible that my eyes just got used to the picture. FWIW, other folks that saw my TV said that the color was excellent.

But in the last few months my Spyder2 has developed a serious problem with detecting red. After a recalibration the picture is noticable redder. Other posters have indicated that they have the same problem - sometimes when the pod is still new.

Anyway, I'm not sure how you should take this, other than just something to be aware of. If you're able to get good calibrations out of your Spyder, like I did for 18 months, then good for you.
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post #780 of 4000 Old 07-13-2008, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

I'm going to attempt to comment on your post, although I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying.

As far as the Spyder 2 results you mention, it is important to remember that a meter can be repeatable but not accurate. In other words, it can give the same reading over and over (as yours has done), but that does not guarantee that the reading is correct (accurate). In general, the Spyder 2 has been found by many to be less accurate than other meters. It's difficult to say if yours is accurate or not without comparing it to another meter whose accuracy you are confident in.

As for the 8% increase in color temperature, that isn't an uncommon thing. You can pretty much rule out the disc or the software causing the increase. It could be your meter, but I would say that it is probably just your set. You may be able to tweak it in further.

Thank you for your response. Yes, I did not mention that I don't have a way to check the accuracy of the colorimrter. The Gray-Scale calibration was using the factory settings on the TV, and I have not found an adjustment to mak it closer to 6500 at all IRE levels. Should I worry about getting all readings within +/- 2% of 6500 degrees when the accuracy of the colorimeter ia questionable?
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