AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 4096 Old 09-29-2008, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edo Gálvez View Post

So in even less words: gamma anywhere from 2.2 to 2.5 is fine depending on lighting conditions?

Well if you accept the power law simplification of the defined gamma correction, then an end-to-end gamma of 1 comes from using a display gamma around 2. For a TV that isn't in a "dim environment" where the subjective factor comes into play a display gamma around 2 seems reasonable.

Quote:


Rather than having each receiver provide this correction, the assumed 2.5-power at the CRT is under-corrected at the camera by using an exponent of about 1/2.2 instead of 1/2.5. The assumption of a dim viewing environment is built into video coding.

This is the basic principle of the end-to-end gamma being greater than 1, but I intentionally left out the portion quoted here because of how the Rec 709 gamma correction doesn't use a strict power function.
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post #902 of 4096 Old 09-29-2008, 04:45 PM
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Thanks
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post #903 of 4096 Old 09-30-2008, 06:00 AM
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I downloaded and uncompressed the AVCHD version and everytime I try to burn the .iso with Roxio it says please insert a blank disc. I've tried three different format DVD's and all are blank with the same outcome. Any ideas of what the issue is here?
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post #904 of 4096 Old 09-30-2008, 06:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edo Gálvez View Post

Edit, I followed the link and read this part:

Rather than having each receiver provide this correction, the assumed 2.5-power at the CRT is under-corrected at the camera by using an exponent of about 1/2.2 instead of 1/2.5. The assumption of a dim viewing environment is built into video coding.

Please note the thread addressed that incorrect assumption:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1066202
"The ITU-R BT.709 transfer function in combination with its target monitor is attempting to achieve a viewing gamma of 1.125 by incorrectly assuming a CRT gamma of 2.5 and an LUT gamma of 1.0/2.222"

"Using the actual power function fit value for the 709 transfer function of 1.0/1.956 and maintaining the display gamma of 1.125, we can solve for the ideal target monitor gamma of 2.2."
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post #905 of 4096 Old 09-30-2008, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrunet View Post

Please note the thread addressed that incorrect assumption:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1066202
"The ITU-R BT.709 transfer function in combination with its target monitor is attempting to achieve a viewing gamma of 1.125 by incorrectly assuming a CRT gamma of 2.5 and an LUT gamma of 1.0/2.222"

"Using the actual power function fit value for the 709 transfer function of 1.0/1.956 and maintaining the display gamma of 1.125, we can solve for the ideal target monitor gamma of 2.2."

Thanks, although honestly I'll have to read on the concepts (viewing gamma, LUT gamma, etc) to be able to really understand what you are saying.
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post #906 of 4096 Old 09-30-2008, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdp1276 View Post

I downloaded and uncompressed the AVCHD version and everytime I try to burn the .iso with Roxio it says please insert a blank disc. I've tried three different format DVD's and all are blank with the same outcome. Any ideas of what the issue is here?

The issue is Roxio. Try Imgburn or Nero instead.
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post #907 of 4096 Old 09-30-2008, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

The issue is Roxio. Try Imgburn or Nero instead.

Imgburn works great and is free.

Bob.
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post #908 of 4096 Old 09-30-2008, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edo Gálvez View Post

honestly I'll have to read on the concepts (viewing gamma, LUT gamma, etc) to be able to really understand what you are saying.

Generally I don't think there's much reason to discuss gamma in this thread, but going back to the summary of the linked thread the following would basically apply to the quote:


- CRT or monitor gamma I called display gamma (also listed as target monitor in the quote)
- Viewing gamma (also labeled display gamma) is what I termed end-to-end gamma
- LUT gamma, or transfer function, is essentially the gamma correction
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post #909 of 4096 Old 09-30-2008, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Generally I don't think there's much reason to discuss gamma in this thread, but going back to the summary of the linked thread the following would basically apply to the quote:


- CRT or monitor gamma I called display gamma (also listed as target monitor in the quote)
- Viewing gamma (also labeled display gamma) is what I termed end-to-end gamma
- LUT gamma, or transfer function, is essentially the gamma correction

Yeah sorry, I didn't even notice I jumped onto the derail wagon. Thanks a lot for your answers still
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post #910 of 4096 Old 10-01-2008, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I have no issue with trying to understand the gamma concept here so that someone can follow the discussion. I would just prefer to try to leave drawing concusions elsewhere. In my opinion the section "What should overall gamma be?" from http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-GammaAppendix.html gives a good overview of the end-to-end gamma (viewing gamma) being discussed in the thread DERG originally linked.
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post #911 of 4096 Old 10-02-2008, 07:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edo Gálvez View Post

Thanks, although honestly I'll have to read on the concepts (viewing gamma, LUT gamma, etc) to be able to really understand what you are saying.

I'm not trying to inflict any further 'concusions' but the DERG link has already cleared up the prevailing confusion regarding the actual CRT Optoelectronic transfer function (OETF) or target of 2.20 so that when it's combined with the actual (~.51) Rec. 709 encoding should result in a nominal viewing end-end contrast emphasis.. i.e.
Quote:


http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-GammaAppendix.html
All CRT displays have a power-law transfer characteristic with a gamma of about 2.5
A CRT has a gamma of 2.5, and we can't change that

------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/Color/sRGB
More recently ITU-R BT.709 has been adopted internationally and contains camera gamma of 1.0/1.956..

The actual 709 encoding transfer function is closer to a CRT gamma of 1.0/1.956 than 1.0/2.222. This is due to the large offset of 0.099 in the transfer function equation. This is well matched to the eye's own non-linearity and it helps minimize transmission noise in the dark areas
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post #912 of 4096 Old 10-02-2008, 09:11 AM
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In a way, I regret linking a discussion on the gamma debate as it seems to have distracted the purpose of this thread. But, in using the AVCHD calibration ISO (found at the beginning of this thread) to me at least, is what makes AVS forums so good. But, using this disc has also opened Pandora's Box. I found my projector has 8 different Gammas. And after seeing that (combined to that much discussed gamma link) prompted my curious mind to ask about gamma.
My background, over 30 years in product validation in the auto industry, began with working hands-on to design engineering. I learned to ask lots of questions to understand a common interest to those who know the answers. That's why I asked should gamma be set at 2.2 or 2.4 in post #894 & said, "That's what I don't get. Is this subjective to the viewer or is there a right or wrong?"

Leaving it to resolve myself, without the experience of many of you, I would look at it like this:
1) The goal of calibration is to replicate on screen as close as possible what is intended by the viewing source; BD, DVD, cable, DSB - whatever. It would seem there would be a known standard set by the source. If the source is encoded to a particular standard, then that's the calibration goal. What goes in is what comes out.
2) Anything different than that would be to the particular taste, or subjectiveness, of the viewer. The same could be said for audio. For example; I love hearing the T-Rex in Jurassic Park thunder across my theater! To some it's exaggerated; to me it's heaven!

I have my projector calibrated to 2 different user gammas. Switching back & forth to view differences I found gamma 2.4 adds a bit more punch to blacks & color. Gamma 2.2 seems to have more detail than 2.4. Colors & blacks lack the punch of 2.4 but has a smoother look. I have left it on gamma 2.2.
It would seem flexibility would be the key to adapt to newer display technologies.
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post #913 of 4096 Old 10-02-2008, 09:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DERG View Post

Is this subjective to the viewer or is there a right or wrong?

Yes gamma is subjective and it also interacts with viewing ambient.
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post #914 of 4096 Old 10-02-2008, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DERG View Post

It would seem there would be a known standard set by the source. If the source is encoded to a particular standard, then that's the calibration goal. What goes in is what comes out.

To reproduce an original would be an end-to-end (viewing) gamma of 1 situation - the display gamma (what you measure) would be an inverse of the gamma correction (camera gamma). Gamma correction is defined by Rec 709 and approximates to around a 1/1.956 power function. If you use a display gamma of about 2, you arrive at an end-to-end gamma of around 1 (1/1.956 * 2.0 = 1.0).

When white objects in the room are darker than white in the image, a subjective factor arises due to "the way the human visual system works" (See "What should overall gamma be?" from http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-GammaAppendix.html). In such a situation where the room is darker than the image, the suggestion is always to use an end-to-end gamma greater than 1 (or a display gamma greater than 2). The suggested viewing gamma to use is generally dependent upon light levels in the room, although different sources also vary on what exact viewing gamma is appropriate for a given light level. The sRGB document discussed in the linked AVSforum thread defines the expected light level in the room along with the display gamma for their system. Rec 709 contains no such recommendations for room light levels and display gamma so it's not specifically standardized, the subjective factor remains, and instead much of the discussion surrounds what display gamma (or the related viewing gamma) is appropriate for certain room light levels.
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post #915 of 4096 Old 10-02-2008, 02:30 PM
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Allright jumping onto the derail wagon again since you guys won't bring the discussion to another thread and I'm really interested ^^

I honestly want to learn about this but I simply haven't had any free time lately (incoming wedding) so I'll have to ask more questions instead of being able to draw my own conclusions: In a completely dark room except for proper bias lighting, assuming ideally calibrated black and white levels, what's the display gamma we should aim for?


And let's say, a PC screen that is used in average office environment, scarce indirect sunlight, not too warm or too cold fluorescent lamps, what gamma would you recommend?
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post #916 of 4096 Old 10-02-2008, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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The practical application is basically the following:
Desired Viewing Gamma * 1/(Gamma Correction) = Display Gamma

If you use the Poynton or Mr.D suggestion of a Viewing Gamma between 1.1 and 1.2, and you use the simplification of Rec 709 Gamma Correction to a power function of 1/1.956, the range would be:

1.10 * 1.956 = 2.15 Display Gamma
1.20 * 1.956 = 2.35 Display Gamma
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post #917 of 4096 Old 10-02-2008, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The practical application is basically the following:
Desired Viewing Gamma * 1/(Gamma Correction) = Display Gamma

If you use the Poynton or Mr.D suggestion of a Viewing Gamma between 1.1 and 1.2, and you use the simplification of Rec 709 Gamma Correction to a power function of 1/1.956, the range would be:

1.10 * 1.956 = 2.15 Display Gamma
1.20 * 1.956 = 2.35 Display Gamma

I am not too sure if this range is for either of the cases I asked about or just general acceptable values (so I should use 2.35 in the dark room and 2.15 in the office setting).
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post #918 of 4096 Old 10-03-2008, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrunet View Post

Yes gamma is subjective and it also interacts with viewing ambient.

Thanks. My theater is a bat cave. Absolutely no ambient light at any time of day.

alluringreality, This is a great read (http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-GammaAppendix.html). I can see why there's so much discussion on this.
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post #919 of 4096 Old 10-03-2008, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edo Gálvez View Post

I am not too sure if this range is for either of the cases I asked about or just general acceptable values

Generally the trend is a higher recommended gamma for a darker surround. I would think a consistent 2.15 display gamma across the grayscale (averaged gamma can vary greatly across the grayscale) would be a reasonable minimum to shoot for in a "dim surround" condition like the computer example, but my comment wasn't necessarily meant as a specific range for the given situations. In fact, some sources suggest an even higher range of 1.25 for viewing gamma in a "dark surround". On the other hand, the higher gamma for a darker surround didn't get a lot of attention in the linked AVSforum thread, so the importance might be questionable.

As far as I'm concerned the major item being dealt with is the perceptual issue, which is further commented on in "Surround effect" from http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/TIDV/Gamma.pdf The way Poynton puts it is that you're aiming for "pictures that are more subjectively pleasing than would be produced by a mathematically correct linear system." By increasing gamma you are reducing the light output difference between 0% and 10%, and that will lower the judged shadow detail in a scene (assuming the same ambient lighting). As an end-user the only valid test I can think of to look into the effect of ambient lighting, would be to try to create a viewing gamma of 1 in a "bright surround" and then to look at which gamma best replicated the look of the image in a "dim" or "dark surround". Of course it's quite possible that tests like this have already been done and that's where the viewing gamma recommendations come from, but if so I haven't seen such things specifically discussed in this forum.
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post #920 of 4096 Old 10-08-2008, 12:48 PM
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Couldn't really find an answer to this on this thread. What percentage of the screen are the window patterns like the grayscale window and color windows? I have a Pioneer 151 and it seems windows sized at about 40% give the wrong gamma readings.
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post #921 of 4096 Old 10-08-2008, 02:45 PM
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It's a 40% gray window, not 40% screen size window.

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post #922 of 4096 Old 10-08-2008, 02:49 PM
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Thx, I was actually looking for what size the windows are. 25% screen size or are they larger? It's documented elsewhere that for example 50% screen size windows mess up the gamma readings later on.
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post #923 of 4096 Old 10-08-2008, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidcan View Post

What percentage of the screen are the window patterns like the grayscale window and color windows?

The window box in the original image is 720x408 inside of 1920x1080. That works out to less than 15% of the area. The size was chosen simply because DVE on HD DVD used a similar size window and the pixels divide into 8. The w6rz.net patterns use a larger window and it looks like they're around 25% area.
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post #924 of 4096 Old 10-09-2008, 01:05 AM
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Just for reference, the w6rz.net window size is 960x552 or 25.6%.

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
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post #925 of 4096 Old 10-13-2008, 11:39 AM
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hey guys,

at home i only have an xbox360 DVD player through HDMI. To use these downloads and proper calibration, will i have to get my hands on a blu ray player or an HD DVD player??

Is it fairly easy to use those calibration discs for someone who's a noob? Should i read absolutely everything on the calibration thread or is most of it pretty self explanatory once i have the DVD in?

thanks in advance.

*edit* Since I'm a noob, should i fork out the 30 bucks for one of the Joe Kane DVD basics calibration discs? Some people say it's not as accurate, though.

and for more background info i just bought my first panny plasma 42pz80u. I'm at about 80 hours break in using the SD card images found on this site.
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post #926 of 4096 Old 10-13-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirtis View Post

hey guys,

at home i only have an xbox360 DVD player through HDMI. To use these downloads and proper calibration, will i have to get my hands on a blu ray player or an HD DVD player??

A lot of players will use this disc when burned onto a standard DVD. I don't know about the 360 specifically.

Quote:


Is it fairly easy to use those calibration discs for someone who's a noob? Should i read absolutely everything on the calibration thread or is most of it pretty self explanatory once i have the DVD in?

Well, there is not much help on the disc. Read the first posting in this thread for instructions.

For the absolute beginner, I recommnend finding a commerical disc with THX Optimizer on it. It has instructions and is good practice at operating the controls, skills you will use with the other discs.

Quote:


*edit* Since I'm a noob, should i fork out the 30 bucks for one of the Joe Kane DVD basics calibration discs? Some people say it's not as accurate, though.

I think DVE HD Basics is about $15 from Amazon. It has more patterns and an audio section. But for the simple calibration I do, the AVS 709 disc is sufficient.

-Bill
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post #927 of 4096 Old 10-13-2008, 12:44 PM
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which version should i get for regular DVD viewing? They all just mention blu ray players.

AVCHD (.exe) or AVCHD (.7z)
BDMV (.exe) or BDMV (.7z)
HD DVD (.exe) or HD DVD (.7z)

i'm gonna use it on an xbox360 regular dvd player.
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post #928 of 4096 Old 10-13-2008, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirtis View Post

which version should i get for regular DVD viewing? They all just mention blu ray players.

AVCHD (.exe) or AVCHD (.7z)
BDMV (.exe) or BDMV (.7z)
HD DVD (.exe) or HD DVD (.7z)

i'm gonna use it on an xbox360 regular dvd player.

Right, Blu-Ray (and HD-DVD) is what this disc is for. You're in the wrong place for an SD-DVD calibration disc.

If you want a downloadable SD-DVD calibration disc, I recommend GetGray: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=586139. It's inexpensive, but not free.

Else there is THX Optimizer, included free on many commericial discs, or Avia or DVE, available from retailers everywhere.

-Bill
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post #929 of 4096 Old 10-16-2008, 09:23 PM
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The PS3 passes resolution tests with flying colors, my nvidia 7900 + pure video decoder doesn't come even close to it. Is there any way to improve on this?
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post #930 of 4096 Old 10-17-2008, 03:42 AM
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Edo Gálvez -- From what I've read, the Panasonic BD55 comes the closest (for about the same price as a PS3). But BD players are not the subject of this thread.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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