AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 34 - AVS Forum

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Display Calibration

Biffa001's Avatar Biffa001
06:19 AM Liked: 10
post #991 of 4106
11-14-2008 | Posts: 62
Joined: Aug 2003
Thanks for the discs, been looking them over but have a quick question re calibration:

I am running my HTPC on a 32" 720p LCD with an ATI HD 3200 vga. Obviously the ATI control panel has many more settings than my LCD which only has brightness, contrast, saturation, sharpness, colour temp. Whereas my ATI panel has those plus hue, tint, ability to adjust red/green/blue individually etc etc. And as you may know I can adjust the video picture signal seperately from the main windows setup.

My question is where do I start? Do I leave all the settings on my TV at 50% and work straight from the ATI panel to adjust everything? Or do I leave the ATI at standard settings and use the limited TV options? Do I tweak the overall PC settings first for windows to look good then work on the ATI Avivo video settings after for HD-DVD/BRD? And what about the PowerDVD and Arcsoft Total Media Theater settings they have themselves in the programs?

Too many options! Where to start! Help!
hwjohn's Avatar hwjohn
06:28 AM Liked: 10
post #992 of 4106
11-14-2008 | Posts: 1,018
Joined: Oct 2006
You might get better answers from the HTPC forum, but I would start from the display.

The display is capable (or should be) of making physical adjustments... in other words, it can change the physical response of the LCD's. In contrast, all your Video card can do is alter the output to "fake" your LCD into displaying the correct color. Not that this is necessarily bad, especially for small adjustments, but I wouldn't want to make large adjustments if I didn't have to.

Get the LCD as close as you can first with the video cards set as close to standards as possible. What I mean by that is that you want the video card to output an unaltered signal from your source, if possible. Then calibrate the LCD the best you can and if you need to, go back and tweak the video card controls to get it better.
Biffa001's Avatar Biffa001
10:14 AM Liked: 10
post #993 of 4106
11-14-2008 | Posts: 62
Joined: Aug 2003
thanks for the reply I'll give that a go :-)
mjmbond's Avatar mjmbond
10:19 AM Liked: 16
post #994 of 4106
11-16-2008 | Posts: 773
Joined: May 2003
I keep getting a Adobe "File is damaged and can't be opened" error when trying to open the pattern pdfs. Is there a problem with these files or is something happening on my end?

TIA
alluringreality's Avatar alluringreality
12:43 PM Liked: 40
post #995 of 4106
11-16-2008 | Posts: 3,204
Joined: Jul 2006
They have been downloaded a few hundred times without comment, so I have to guess it has to do with your computer. If you're running windows I prefer to skip the way the Adobe Reader site is setup and just download the exe http://www.softpedia.com/get/Office-...e-Reader.shtml Redownloading the PDF also wouldn't be a bad idea if you're running current PDF software. If you're using Windows Explorer sometimes redownloading a failed file download can be a pain, so I would suggest maybe using another browser such as Firefox or Google Chrome to try the download again.
mjmbond's Avatar mjmbond
01:14 PM Liked: 16
post #996 of 4106
11-16-2008 | Posts: 773
Joined: May 2003
Thanks AR. I've been using Acrobat Distiller v5 for years and never encountered a .pdf file that it wouldn't open... until now. I guess my Acrobat program is too old now to open up the newer files. I downloaded Reader v8x from the link you provided and the files now open just fine.
dkuster's Avatar dkuster
08:12 AM Liked: 10
post #997 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 348
Joined: May 2005
I burned the avs HD 709 iso to DVD but it won't load or play in my Denon 2500BCTI blu ray transport.

Is there any way to purchase this already burned to blu ray???

Any help is appreciated...

-dan
hwjohn's Avatar hwjohn
08:26 AM Liked: 10
post #998 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 1,018
Joined: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkuster View Post

I burned the avs HD 709 iso to DVD but it won't load or play in my Denon 2500BCTI blu ray transport.

Is there any way to purchase this already burned to blu ray???

Any help is appreciated...

-dan

No way to purchase it on Blu-ray. I have looked into the cost of replication and it is just too much without really knowing what the interest would be ahead of time.

Best thing you can do is make sure you are burning it correctly. The most common mistake is to burn the ISO file to a disc instead of using the ISO to make a disc. I know it doesn't seem like there is any difference, but there is. If you pop the disc in your computer, does Explorer show an .iso file on the disk?
alluringreality's Avatar alluringreality
09:34 AM Liked: 40
post #999 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 3,204
Joined: Jul 2006
Out of curiosity I was looking at the items search engines return regarding Blu-ray duplication and replication. From http://www.discmakers.com/selfservic...r/default.aspx it looks like it might be possible to do a single BD-R for somewhere around $40 shipped, which I figure is probably out of line considering the format is not necessarily guranteed to play on all Blu-ray players. To do a true BD replication (expected to play on all players) would easily be over $2000 due to AACS fees and software required, but realistically 1000 copies seems to be a common minimum order so $5000 would be a reasonable estimation for what it would truly cost to replicate this on Blu-ray.

As far as the Denon goes, beyond what hwjohn has already mentioned, you could try to find out if any other owners report being able to play custom HD video from their players and report back. I've thought about offering a tsMuxer version without menus that might be a little more compatible (it seems Samsung plays tsMuxer disks), but it would only be able to contain a small portion of the patterns included in the current version.
dkuster's Avatar dkuster
10:20 AM Liked: 10
post #1000 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 348
Joined: May 2005
Hi Guys,

Yes, I did burn the image to disc with Nero, meaning I didn't just make a data disc containing the .iso file. Also, I checked my transports owner's manual and it does not list AVCHD as a compatible format.

That disc burning service looks interesting though. I'll check it out.

Thanks!
hwjohn's Avatar hwjohn
10:48 AM Liked: 10
post #1001 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 1,018
Joined: Oct 2006
AACS encryption costs are ridiculous for small runs, and AACS is mandatory.

I think the only feasible way it could happen is if you had a group buy of 200+ discs at something like $20. I don't know if people would be interested at that price or not given that I think DVE and others are also in that range.
hwjohn's Avatar hwjohn
10:49 AM Liked: 10
post #1002 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 1,018
Joined: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkuster View Post

Hi Guys,

Yes, I did burn the image to disc with Nero, meaning I didn't just make a data disc containing the .iso file. Also, I checked my transports owner's manual and it does not list AVCHD as a compatible format.

That disc burning service looks interesting though. I'll check it out.

Thanks!

Unfortunately, it isn't a requirement for a BD player to support AVCHD, although most do. Might we worthwhile to call up the manufacturer and see what they say about it.

Another thing to try is a different disc/burner... does the player give you an error?
dkuster's Avatar dkuster
11:14 AM Liked: 10
post #1003 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 348
Joined: May 2005
The player doesn't give an explicit error. A dozen seconds or so after loading the disc the display shows "-----------------"

This also happens when I load an SACD (which the Denon does not support), so I think it's just the way the transport indicates that it doesn't recognize the format...


Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

Unfortunately, it isn't a requirement for a BD player to support AVCHD, although most do. Might we worthwhile to call up the manufacturer and see what they say about it.

Another thing to try is a different disc/burner... does the player give you an error?


alluringreality's Avatar alluringreality
11:48 AM Liked: 40
post #1004 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 3,204
Joined: Jul 2006
BDMV on DVD is supported by about as many players as can be counted on one hand, so I doubt the Denon would play that either. The only other offered option to try would be BDMV on BD-R or BD-RE, but just like AVCHD there is no guarantee that a given player will play that either. Maybe someone from an owners thread for the player has tried a few bits of HD video to say if any formats work besides the commercial versions involving the AACS fees, but by this time there are just too many different players to keep track of what plays what. In this respect HD DVD was nice because if you created HD video that would play on one HD DVD player it would also play on another.
lovingdvd's Avatar lovingdvd
01:11 PM Liked: 81
post #1005 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 9,098
Joined: Jul 2002
Thanks for a truly outstanding disc! I had the opportunity to work with it the other night and it worked wonderfully (using it on a PS3).

I read that there was no lip sync pattern because it is thought to perhaps be a bit out of scope.

I would like to kindly request that a lip sync pattern please be reconsidered for this disc. Currently I use GetGray and/or DVE for this. Now that I have your disc I don't need those other discs, except for the lip sync. Having a lip sync pattern on your disk would ber supper handy indeed, and I think many folks would find great use for this.

Thank you and keep up the great work!
mjmbond's Avatar mjmbond
01:44 PM Liked: 16
post #1006 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 773
Joined: May 2003
+1

Audio sync would be a great addition!
daMaster's Avatar daMaster
01:47 PM Liked: 11
post #1007 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 1,407
Joined: May 2004
Pink/white noise for audio calibration would be awesome too!
alluringreality's Avatar alluringreality
02:54 PM Liked: 40
post #1008 of 4106
11-17-2008 | Posts: 3,204
Joined: Jul 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

Pink/white noise for audio calibration would be awesome too!

The current authoring software is known to downsample audio to 2-channel, so that probably defeats the point of the request. Changing authoring software at this time is not an option, and I cannot find enough quality information to double-check all the relations that appear in the Blu-ray formatting (all the stream types are defined in multiple places in the Blu-ray files).


Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I would like to kindly request that a lip sync pattern please be reconsidered for this disc.

If there was one pattern added to the disk, that would probably be my first choice. The major issues are (1) creating the pattern and (2) verifying the pattern is correct after it goes through the authoring process. Like stated above the current authoring software is known to recode audio and replacing files could possibly introduce issues, so verifying the pattern would be a serious consideration and something we would likely need outside technical support to address.
hwjohn's Avatar hwjohn
02:13 PM Liked: 10
post #1009 of 4106
11-18-2008 | Posts: 1,018
Joined: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Thanks for a truly outstanding disc! I had the opportunity to work with it the other night and it worked wonderfully (using it on a PS3).

I read that there was no lip sync pattern because it is thought to perhaps be a bit out of scope.

I would like to kindly request that a lip sync pattern please be reconsidered for this disc. Currently I use GetGray and/or DVE for this. Now that I have your disc I don't need those other discs, except for the lip sync. Having a lip sync pattern on your disk would ber supper handy indeed, and I think many folks would find great use for this.

Thank you and keep up the great work!

We would probably need Ron (dr1394) to help with this. I don't know of a way to mux the audio and video and ensure that they are exactly in time, or really how to check it. I know that Ron helped GetGray with his, but now we are talking about doing it with AVC coding which is an entirely different animal than MPEG2.

If anybody can do it, it is Ron. I like to think of him as the "digital" MacGuyver. He once constructed a an emergency cell phone using a paper clip, duct tape, and a discarded Tickle Me Elmo. Seriously.
lovingdvd's Avatar lovingdvd
10:22 PM Liked: 81
post #1010 of 4106
11-18-2008 | Posts: 9,098
Joined: Jul 2002
While we are discussing possible additions to the disc, these look like excellent convergence patterns: http://www.pbase.com/jackcnd/convergence . If the author would provide permission it would be great to see these included. There is a link on that page to contact the author for usage requests if you agree its a great fit for the disc.
lovingdvd's Avatar lovingdvd
10:30 PM Liked: 81
post #1011 of 4106
11-18-2008 | Posts: 9,098
Joined: Jul 2002
A couple other questions please. Would it be possible to author the disc so that the HDMI handshake did not need to occur when moving back and forth from the menus to the patterns and vice-versa? Its not a biggie but the 5 second handshake with my pj seems much longer when you have to go back and forth a lot.

Also it would be great if there was a way to quickly jump within a set of patterns from one to another. For instance - within the Grayscale Measurements section -say the 5% fields - I frequently need to go from higher levels like 80% back to lower levels like 10 or 15%, then back to higher etc. Going forward isn't too bad on the PS3, just press the forward button x times to move up. But going back is a pain because you have to hit the skip back button twice - one to get back to the beginning of the pattern, and then quickly again to move back past it to the previous pattern (this of course is not unique to this disc).

Also - would it be possible to increase the amount of time that the 0% full field and window are shown within the grayscale measurements? With my settings for high accuracy it takes my sensor a few minutes to read it, and in some cases its not done before the disc automatically moves on to the next pattern. I would hit the Pause key on the player which freezes it, but this results in a white || pause mark that is very bright and puts too much light on the screen.

Thanks again for a truly excellent disc. I did a detailed calibration last night and had no need to use any of my other calibration discs. Sweet!
alluringreality's Avatar alluringreality
11:01 AM Liked: 40
post #1012 of 4106
11-19-2008 | Posts: 3,204
Joined: Jul 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

these look like excellent convergence patterns: http://www.pbase.com/jackcnd/convergence . If the author would provide permission it would be great to see these included. There is a link on that page to contact the author for usage requests if you agree its a great fit for the disc.

We have permission to include the patterns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Would it be possible to author the disc so that the HDMI handshake did not need to occur when moving back and forth from the menus to the patterns and vice-versa? Its not a biggie but the 5 second handshake with my pj seems much longer when you have to go back and forth a lot.

This is basically the current known issue #2. We don't have much choice in what the program does for menu output. There are only a few programs that do AVCHD menus at all, and Arcsoft is the only program I've found that can pass 24p video. It uses interlaced menus, and to match typical Blu-ray we're using progressive video. We had this request once or twice before when the situation was reversed (progressive menus and interlaced video).

We could probably do all interlaced with the current program that might get around what you're talking about, but now that we have progressive video I can't come up with much other reason to use interlaced. Really how the swich is handled falls to the electronics. For example I know in reviews my BDP-S1 was complained about for this issue, while for example the PS3 wasn't, but I think the display will also come into play for how long the switch takes.


Quote:


Also it would be great if there was a way to quickly jump within a set of patterns from one to another.

The only way this is possible would be with more menu interaction, and the item above is due to the menus. The only thing I can think of at all that might be quicker than chapter skipping would be pop-up menus, but short of something maybe like DoStudio, current consumer-level programs don't have that sort of function.
lovingdvd's Avatar lovingdvd
12:13 PM Liked: 81
post #1013 of 4106
11-19-2008 | Posts: 9,098
Joined: Jul 2002
Quote:


We have permission to include the patterns.

Great! Does this mean you think you'll be incorporating them? If so, any feel when the next release will be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

We have permission to include the patterns.
Also - would it be possible to increase the amount of time that the 0% full fiel

Thanks for the details. No need to worry about the switching further. It does slow things down but still manageable and certainly not to the point where it would be worth going through a lot of trouble to improve.

It looks like your response to my question about increasing the time that the 0% full field takes got cut off. Thanks.
alluringreality's Avatar alluringreality
05:00 PM Liked: 40
post #1014 of 4106
11-19-2008 | Posts: 3,204
Joined: Jul 2006
Quote:


It looks like your response to my question about increasing the time that the 0% full field takes got cut off.

The HD DVD is close to full, but we could probably use 3 minute clips on the other stuff. It would basically only apply to the ColorHCFR patterns, because 30 seconds has been requested for the CalMAN stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Does this mean you think you'll be incorporating them? If so, any feel when the next release will be?

I put it in the current outline for possible changes. The split of CalMAN, HCFR, windows, and fields is mostly a redo of all the sections, and the time change affects the few remaining sections. From the standpoint for actually releasing a revised disk, there's a lot of things that have to be done, so there's no timetable.
Rolls-Royce's Avatar Rolls-Royce
08:01 PM Liked: 71
post #1015 of 4106
11-22-2008 | Posts: 2,075
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I'm using the new release of the AVCHD disc with my BD player, and I really like its look vs. the original's. Too bad the new look wasn't incorporated in the HD DVD version. Anyway, I've noticed that the 20% grayscale window blacks out and then reappears. It always blacks out at the 415 mark on my BD35's counter, and reappears at 416. During the blackout, the "20%" at the lower left corner of the window changes to a tiny teardrop-shaped white blob. It hasn't seemed to adversely impact grayscale readings, but I now wait until the player's counter reads 416 before initiating a reading on that window. Has anyone else noticed this? If not, I likely have a corrupted disc or original downloaded file (.exe).
alluringreality's Avatar alluringreality
09:07 AM Liked: 40
post #1016 of 4106
11-23-2008 | Posts: 3,204
Joined: Jul 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

I really like its look vs. the original's. Too bad the new look wasn't incorporated in the HD DVD version.

I guess you're talking about using sub-menus. That and the text style are about all that changed for look, and the text style was never previously an option due to how the Ulead software works. Ulead also didn't have sub-menus in their MF6+ software and they dropped HD DVD on the newer version with sub-menus. I think Nero also dropped HD DVD on their newest version. We're still kicking around ideas for the next disk, but all in all it's going to be similar to the HD DVD in that all the relevant measurement patterns will be on one menu; for example, by selecting ColorHCFR Windows all the Window patterns will appear on the sub-menu.

Quote:


Anyway, I've noticed that the 20% grayscale window blacks out and then reappears. It always blacks out at the 415 mark on my BD35's counter, and reappears at 416. During the blackout, the "20%" at the lower left corner of the window changes to a tiny teardrop-shaped white blob. It hasn't seemed to adversely impact grayscale readings, but I now wait until the player's counter reads 416 before initiating a reading on that window. Has anyone else noticed this? If not, I likely have a corrupted disc or original downloaded file (.exe).

I went to title 3, chapter 3 and let the time go past the mentioned mark. My original Sony player doesn't show what's mentioned. That's going to be one of the most used measurement patterns, so while my player will basically play anything, I would have figured if it was an issue with the video it might have been mentioned by now.

If you want to check the corruption idea, probably the ideal thing to do would be to have your computer create an MD5 hatch for the .iso file (it will take some time). There are some links at the end of step 2 in the downloads area that go to software for creating MD5 hatches, such as MD5summer for Windows. The attached MD5 file can be looked at in a text editor to see the MD5 hatch for the AVCHD .iso, if you're not using MD5 summer to do the comparison. If the .iso MD5 matches then the only other place an error could happen would be at burning, and I know I have ImgBurn on my computer set to verify the burn and eliminate that possible issue.
Rolls-Royce's Avatar Rolls-Royce
11:16 AM Liked: 71
post #1017 of 4106
11-23-2008 | Posts: 2,075
Joined: Apr 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I guess you're talking about using sub-menus. That and the text style are about all that changed for look, and the text style was never previously an option due to how the Ulead software works. Ulead also didn't have sub-menus in their MF6+ software and they dropped HD DVD on the newer version with sub-menus. I think Nero also dropped HD DVD on their newest version. We're still kicking around ideas for the next disk, but all in all it's going to be similar to the HD DVD in that all the relevant measurement patterns will be on one menu; for example, by selecting ColorHCFR Windows all the Window patterns will appear on the sub-menu.



I went to title 3, chapter 3 and let the time go past the mentioned mark. My original Sony player doesn't show what's mentioned. That's going to be one of the most used measurement patterns, so while my player will basically play anything, I would have figured if it was an issue with the video it might have been mentioned by now.

If you want to check the corruption idea, probably the ideal thing to do would be to have your computer create an MD5 hatch for the .iso file (it will take some time). There are some links at the end of step 2 in the downloads area that go to software for creating MD5 hatches, such as MD5summer for Windows. The attached MD5 file can be looked at in a text editor to see the MD5 hatch for the AVCHD .iso, if you're not using MD5 summer to do the comparison. If the .iso MD5 matches then the only other place an error could happen would be at burning, and I know I have ImgBurn on my computer set to verify the burn and eliminate that possible issue.

Yep, I was talking about the submenus.

I figured that the 20% pattern was probably OK for everyone else, as I did a look back a ways in this thread before posting, and there were no mentions of what I'm seeing. My Nero software is also set to verify the burn, and reported no errors, so I'm thinking the file may somehow have been corrupted during the download or save to my drive. The disc it's on is a DVD+RW, so I won't lose anything by downloading and burning it again.

Thanks for the quick answer!
angryht's Avatar angryht
05:56 PM Liked: 11
post #1018 of 4106
11-27-2008 | Posts: 1,321
Joined: Aug 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

Yep, I was talking about the submenus.

I figured that the 20% pattern was probably OK for everyone else, as I did a look back a ways in this thread before posting, and there were no mentions of what I'm seeing. My Nero software is also set to verify the burn, and reported no errors, so I'm thinking the file may somehow have been corrupted during the download or save to my drive. The disc it's on is a DVD+RW, so I won't lose anything by downloading and burning it again.

Thanks for the quick answer!

I used nero to burn the .iso file and got a strange result. On the 75% blue (window) at the 15 second mark the window goes black for about a half second. This also happens on the 20% gray window at about the 15 second mark. I have down loaded the file twice and burned it twice and I get the same result both times. I can work around the problem by just pausing the patterns and advancing them while they are paused.
P A U L's Avatar P A U L
07:50 PM Liked: 10
post #1019 of 4106
11-28-2008 | Posts: 45
Joined: Aug 2008
where would a complete newb like myself start? i downloaded the image file and made a DVD, loaded it with my PS3 on my Plasma TV... then what??

any links or walkthroughs available somewhere? i ended up here through search engines, and all i see is high praise for the forum without much insutrctions. lol
angryht's Avatar angryht
08:47 PM Liked: 11
post #1020 of 4106
11-28-2008 | Posts: 1,321
Joined: Aug 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by P A U L View Post

where would a complete newb like myself start? i downloaded the image file and made a DVD, loaded it with my PS3 on my Plasma TV... then what??

any links or walkthroughs available somewhere? i ended up here through search engines, and all i see is high praise for the forum without much insutrctions. lol

There is a Patterns.pdf file at the end of the first post in this thread.
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