AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 41 - AVS Forum
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post #1201 of 4025 Old 01-05-2009, 08:18 PM
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Quote:


Does it matter if its DVD+R or DVD-R?

What is better with the PS3?

What is better for newer stand alone players?

I use DVD-R with my PS3. I don't know for sure if DVD+R will work but it likely will. I have however not been able to make DVD-RW disks work with the PS3.
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post #1202 of 4025 Old 01-06-2009, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

I use DVD-R with my PS3. I don't know for sure if DVD+R will work but it likely will. I have however not been able to make DVD-RW disks work with the PS3.

I burned this calibration dvd on DVD+R with imgburn - works!
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post #1203 of 4025 Old 01-06-2009, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

yes that does make sens and that is what I was referring to. I would suppose since red or blue, or green for that matter is darker than a 100% white window, than it is reasonable to assume the Iris would be letting less light in and would possibly make the difference. I still am not total sure why as ideally an iris,in my opinion, should be designed to let enough lite through to give me correct results. once again I go back to the logic that if my math is right there should be enough lite in a particular color to give me correct color. I am no pro at this so I'm just going on logical assumptions here.

I don't want to get of topic here as I know this is a topic for the AVS HD 709 disk and not for discussion on how to calibrate a tv. I am just trying to get a more informed view of the situation so I can determine what pattern to use for the calibration of gray scale and color on a set with a non adjustable Iris.

I haven't heard a definite yes or no one way or the other and I assume that's probably because it depends on the TV. I hope I am steering in the right direction in wanting to use the APL patterns to perform my calibration because it may get me better results, so long as the additional patterns on screen at the same time don't contaminate my readings.


thanks for helping me understand all this. I know it can be frustrating trying to explain all this to an amateur.

I'd agree that the iris shouldn't affect the x,y for color, but it seems that Y is exactly what it's trying to affect, and Y is what you're adjusting for with Color settings. (Which I think it what we're talking about. :-) I'm easily confused.)
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post #1204 of 4025 Old 01-06-2009, 09:22 AM
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well, I went through a trial run with the APL settings and I have found that the only things that really changed about the calibration process was the gamma and luminance curves are now reading much more flat. other than that, my final settings where very close to what they where before in both grayscale and xyY values. Based o this, I can only determine that, at least as far as my set goes, the iris makes little effect on the outcome when adjusting grayscale and color. I did notice the newest hd709 disk now has 1080p patterns instead of 1080i, which I was using before. This is nice because there is a small difference on my set in black level between the two resolutions.
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post #1205 of 4025 Old 01-06-2009, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

well, I went through a trial run with the APL settings and I have found that the only things that really changed about the calibration process was the gamma and luminance curves are now reading much more flat. other than that, my final settings where very close to what they where before in both grayscale and xyY values. Based o this, I can only determine that, at least as far as my set goes, the iris makes little effect on the outcome when adjusting grayscale and color. I did notice the newest hd709 disk now has 1080p patterns instead of 1080i, which I was using before. This is nice because there is a small difference on my set in black level between the two resolutions.

I wonder if it is the difference in meters we have. color for me stayed basically the same with the apl pattern vs regular pattern but grayscale did change by a pretty wide margin. I then went and tested grayscale with full field patterns and the result was the same as the non apl windows. so now I have 2 grayscale measurements that are the same full field and regular windows, and one that is different which is the apl pattern. I'm going with the majority rule and sticking with my settings from the regular windows.
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post #1206 of 4025 Old 01-07-2009, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Meter: i1 Display2
Software: ColorHCFR 2.0.1 (LCD mode and Average many reads on dark measurements)
Discs: AVS HD 709 - v1.2 AVCHD (AVS), and Digital Video Essentials - HD Basics Blu-Ray (DVE)
Player: Sony BDP-S1
Display: Sony KDS-60A3000 (Iris on Max.)
Room: Dark except for bulb behind display

Procedure:
Placed meter in approximately the center of the screen and measured each pattern run twice to look at repeatability. Y varies a bit with time on the display. On a quick look, xy generally seemed to be within the Display2 specs for repeatability.

Measurements:
1. APL-A.chc is the first run of the AVS disc Large APL grayscale patterns
2. APL-B.chc is the second run of the AVS disc Large APL grayscale patterns
3. AVS-A.chc is the first run of the AVS disc Windows
4. AVS-B.chc is the second run of the AVS disc Windows
5. DVE-A.chc is the first run of the DVE Windows
6. DVE-B.chc is the second run of DVE Windows









The chc files from the Measures.zip can be looked at with ColorHCFR. This comparison is continued below in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post15515589

 

Measures.zip 4.318359375k . file
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post #1207 of 4025 Old 01-08-2009, 10:38 AM
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First of all thanks a lot for this excellent work, AVS REC709 DVD is the disc I've watched most since I've bought my HD-750 (probably at least half of the 80 hours or so I've logged on it).

Just two quick questions if by any chance you could help:

- Are the 75% colors patterns (5th choice in the main menu in RC1) 75% saturation or 75% stimulus? EDIT: I found the patterns-HD acrobat file (sorry, missed that obvious one) and got my answer, they are 75% stimulus as your notes say you specify sat when a % means saturation (as in primaries and secondaries sat patterns).
- Are there some color ramps on the disc (EDIT: I found the RGB clipping ramps which are useful, but I'm looking for the full ramps)? There are no ramps in the DVE HD basics on BD (don't have an HD-DVD player so can't get the advanced edition). If there are no color ramps in AVS709, any idea where I could find some to play in a BD player? Any chance you could add some in RC2?
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post #1208 of 4025 Old 01-08-2009, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Are there some color ramps on the disc

The v1.2 disk will be released within the next week. It includes a pattern that has 5% steps for each of the primaries and secondaries. It's somewhat similar to the pattern currently labeled "Grayscale Bars", but with color. We have had similar requests before, and the pattern is simply what generally seemed to fit the requests without having to do too much reworking things half-way through the process of creating a new disk. As always if something doesn't fit expectations, then anyone is welcome to submit 1920x1080 items, that can be copied, if anyone feels it would be a benefit within the current calibration disk framework .
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post #1209 of 4025 Old 01-09-2009, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The v1.2 disk will be released within the next week. It includes a pattern that has 5% steps for each of the primaries and secondaries. It's somewhat similar to the pattern currently labeled "Grayscale Bars", but with color. We have had similar requests before, and the pattern is simply what generally seemed to fit the requests without having to do too much reworking things half-way through the process of creating a new disk. As always if something doesn't fit expectations, then anyone is welcome to submit 1920x1080 items, that can be copied, if anyone feels it would be a benefit within the current calibration disk framework .

This is great news, thanks for the quick reply Alluringreality and thanks again for all your fantastic work, this project is amazingly empowering and perfectly matches HCFR. We all owe you and those behind it big time!
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post #1210 of 4025 Old 01-09-2009, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The chc files from the Measures.zip can be looked at with ColorHCFR.

Thank you for this, so the versions are the same now?
Although Gamma is a little different.

I wounder if you first release was low in blue as when I look at your files all your blues are about 8% to high.

Did you calibrated with the first version of the disk, and now with 24P version 1.0 the blue is fixed?

Looks like you may need to recalibrate with your new version 1.0 or 1.2 when you get a chance.
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post #1211 of 4025 Old 01-10-2009, 05:03 AM - Thread Starter
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This is a continuation of http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post15491277

I forgot to increase the iris on my TV for the new runs, so the only major difference is that the TV iris is on Min instead of Max. This time I took two runs of DVE Windows and two runs of AVS Windows.

Measurements:
1. DVE-C.chc is the first run of the DVE Windows
2. DVE-D.chc is the second run of DVE Windows
3. AVS-C.chc is the first run of the AVS disc Windows
4. AVS-D.chc is the second run of the AVS disc Windows







 

Measures2.zip 2.9462890625k . file
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post #1212 of 4025 Old 01-10-2009, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

so the versions are the same now?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, I've never found xy differences outside the meter repeatability on any disks I've measured. The new version will be similar to the prior v1.0 disk in that the Blu-ray and MP4 versions will use 24p AVC video, and the HD DVD will use a mix of mpeg2 and AVC video.

Quote:


Although Gamma is a little different.

Gamma is just related to relative Y measurements. I took another set of runs and again the same trend seemed to repeat with DVE relative Y being slightly lower, at the low-end of the grayscale brighter than black. So it seems a repeatable difference, but it appears to be in the 0.0X range of gamma. I figure maybe the two disks use different rounding for luma. For example (235-16)*X+16 has a decimal where X=.1 to .9, but you can only encode to whole numbers, and it's possible that the disks don't round in the exact same fashion. The only way to test this further would be to rip DVE to find if luma values are slightly different, and I don't have that capability because I don't have a Blu-ray drive in my computer and decrypting software. I know dr1394 uses a different encoding procedure for the w6rz.net patterns, and it's possible this could be an area where things might differ a bit. While I'll probably list this in the known issues, from what I've read about gamma I'm not sure things are defined this tightly, and I'm not sure consumer-level equipment or electronics is necessarily accurate to the range of variation.

Quote:


I wounder if you first release was low in blue as when I look at your files all your blues are about 8% to high.

Some displays might treat different input types differently, if you were using the 1080i patterns, that or the measurement issue from Chad B are my only guesses.

Quote:


Did you calibrated with the first version of the disk, and now with 24P version 1.0 the blue is fixed?

Generally the basic procedure of encoding and testing the encode hasn't changed.

Quote:


Looks like you may need to recalibrate with your new version 1.0 or 1.2 when you get a chance.

My TV seems to drift in xy as the bulb ages and I haven't messed with grayscale controls in a while, but the screen also isn't uniform so even if one spot measures perfect the rest of the screen will measure a little differently.
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post #1213 of 4025 Old 01-10-2009, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

[size="5"]...
v1.2 Updated Release

The following changes were made for the v1.2 release:
...

Perhaps I am overlooking it in the list but per your message a few posts back should there be something in the 1.2 list regarding the addition of the new 5% colors pattern(s)? Thanks.
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post #1214 of 4025 Old 01-10-2009, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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post #1215 of 4025 Old 01-10-2009, 08:10 AM
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@ Alluringreality...

What is your position on the practice of lowering brightness just a touch to get closer to the 2.2 average gamma we try to acheive?

I know everyones display is a little different. That said, you have said to basically be able to see at least Black 16 or at least 17 in the black clipping pattern flash.

Now in my case, I can still lower my brightness a few more clicks to get my average gamma more in line with 2.2 and still comply with DVE's Pluge for instance. The 2% above black remains visible to the eye. But then I no longer comply with your black clipping pattern where I only see 18 or 19 and above flashing.

If I comply with your flashing 17, my average gamma ends up about 2.18. Has nothing to do with your pattern I know. It's the behaviour of my set.

So what's your position on that?

C.

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post #1216 of 4025 Old 01-10-2009, 08:50 AM
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should this calibration disc be playable in my oppo 981? it wont recognize it...

i used:
image burn > taiyo yuden media > plextor 740a

thanks
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post #1217 of 4025 Old 01-10-2009, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellaguru View Post

should this calibration disc be playable in my oppo 981? it wont recognize it...

i used:
image burn > taiyo yuden media > plextor 740a

thanks

No, the 981 is a DVD player. This disc is for Blu-ray or for HD-DVD.

-Bill
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post #1218 of 4025 Old 01-10-2009, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvearl View Post

So what's your position on that?

My opinion will generally be in the upcoming v1.2 PDF. If the gamma is low and can't be adjusted then all you can really do is clip levels if you want to make the image darker. Up the page there are some measurements that might indicate that this disk could vary in comparison to DVE Y measurements. DVE will show a slightly higher gamma and would be a reference once you get to discussing gamma at the second decimal.
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post #1219 of 4025 Old 01-11-2009, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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The following changes were made for the v1.2 release:
- Black, APL, White Clipping Patterns include 3 more levels and minor text changes. Levels were added to extend farther above black and below white, to make flashing easier to see on mis-adjusted displays.
- APL Clipping pattern was revised to flash black for the center of the pattern, to try to avoid having brightness too high.
- Switched single pixel outline on Sharpness pattern from red to white, due to prior encoding issues.
- Added primary and secondary step pattern to Misc. Patterns section to try to account for requests.
- RGB Low and High Clipping patterns now change by 2 levels, instead of 1, due to encoding.
- Removed red, green, and blue single-pixel patterns from Resolution section, because of encoding issues.
- Added full-screen 3-pixel horizontal and vertical patterns to Resolution section
- Revisions to the instructions, and updated PDF to reflect changes.
- Disc label based on original by kchung was added to downloads.

The Blu-ray related versions changed somewhat significantly, and the following changes do not apply to the HD DVD version:
- Split sub-menus into ColorHCFR and CalMAN sections for Windows and fields.
- Swiched patterns to use 3-minute patterns per request, other than for CalMAN measures.
- Used 30-second patterns for CalMAN measurements, so automatic measurements could be used.
- The AVCHD has been created by converting HDMV to AVCHD.
- The MP4 version was encoded directly from meGUI, to give the correct resolution.
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post #1220 of 4025 Old 01-11-2009, 12:27 PM
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Thanks again for all of your efforts!!

-Greg
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post #1221 of 4025 Old 01-11-2009, 08:29 PM
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Hello all,

I'm sorry to ask such a basic question, but I am trying to burn the avchd 1.2 exe version. I have tried using Nero and Imgburn and I get the same results:

Once I burn the .iso image, the image programs see the data is there and the session is closed ok, and data is verified, but when I look at it in Explorer, nothing is there, and nothing autoruns.

What the heck am I missing here???

Thanks

-_Todd

OK, scratch that. I just read this:

2) Because of the UDF format used with the disc versions, some computers will not be able to read a burned disc. Even if your computer cannot read a burned disc, all that matters is if a compatible HD player can read the disc.

And stuck it in my Panasonic and it reads fine.

Ah well, chalk this up for not reading the footnotes!
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post #1222 of 4025 Old 01-11-2009, 09:54 PM
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^ But why will my computer's Intervideo WinDVD bluray software play the v1.0 burn, which is also in UDF form, but wont play the new v1.2? I used ImgBurn as ISO image to the same brand DVD-R as "Data DVD" for both. I downloaded the non zipped ".exe" form for v1.2 but I'm not sure about the v1.0. Does that matter?

v1.2 will play on my stand alone Sony Bluray 350 deck so I know the disc burn worked fine.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #1223 of 4025 Old 01-12-2009, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The following changes were made for the v1.2 release:
- Black, APL, White Clipping Patterns include 3 more levels and minor text changes. Levels were added to extend farther above black and below white, to make flashing easier to see on mis-adjusted displays.
- APL Clipping pattern was revised to flash black for the center of the pattern, to try to avoid having brightness too high.
- Switched single pixel outline on Sharpness pattern from red to white, due to prior encoding issues.
- Added primary and secondary step pattern to Misc. Patterns section to try to account for requests.
- RGB Low and High Clipping patterns now change by 2 levels, instead of 1, due to encoding.
- Removed red, green, and blue single-pixel patterns from Resolution section, because of encoding issues.
- Added full-screen 3-pixel horizontal and vertical patterns to Resolution section
- Revisions to the instructions, and updated PDF to reflect changes.
- Disc label based on original by kchung was added to downloads.

The Blu-ray related versions changed somewhat significantly, and the following changes do not apply to the HD DVD version:
- Split sub-menus into ColorHCFR and CalMAN sections for Windows and fields.
- Swiched patterns to use 3-minute patterns per request, other than for CalMAN measures.
- Used 30-second patterns for CalMAN measurements, so automatic measurements could be used.
- The AVCHD has been created by converting HDMV to AVCHD.
- The MP4 version was encoded directly from meGUI, to give the correct resolution.

Thanks for all the good work and a release on schedule!
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post #1224 of 4025 Old 01-12-2009, 01:35 AM
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m. zillch -- Your statements "don't compute" (???). Your words don't seem to match what you say plays and doesn't play. The real criteria is if both will play in your S350. WinDVD Blu-Ray will play files from your hard drive differently than it would from a AVCHD DVD, Blu-Ray format, so that is not a criteria to "doing it correctly".

The AVCHD-v1.exe and AVCHD-v1_2.exe are programs that are "self-extracting" zip files. You double-click on them and they will extract the respective AVCHD-v1.iso (or AVCHD-v1_2.iso) file. you them use IMGburn to burn a "Disc Image" - this is not a Data disc it is a video DVD in a Blu-Ray format. This process is written up in a concise and detailed fashion in the current Post #1 of this thread.

Your WinDVD Blu-Ray software should play either one as will your S350, if they were done correctly.

If you try to burn the ".exe" file to a data disc, you won't get a working calibration disc, period.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #1225 of 4025 Old 01-12-2009, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

^ But why will my computer's Intervideo WinDVD bluray software play the v1.0 burn, which is also in UDF form, but wont play the new v1.2? I used ImgBurn as ISO image to the same brand DVD-R as "Data DVD" for both. I downloaded the non zipped ".exe" form for v1.2 but I'm not sure about the v1.0. Does that matter?

I'm not sure what you mean by "Data DVD" and I don't know exactly which version you're using. Because you mention iso I'll guess you're talking about AVCHD, but some Sony players will probably play HDMV written to DVD. You could try the other version (AVCHD or HDMV) written to DVD to see if that would work. How the disk is authored changed significantly from v1.0 to v1.2 so it's not completely surprising that some playback form might end up not working. In my testing the standalone players that would play v1.0 would also play v1.2, but I'll mentally note it down and see if there are any other reports. If anything I could reauthor the AVCHD the way that the v1.0 disk was authored, but in testing I couldn't find any differences.
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post #1226 of 4025 Old 01-12-2009, 06:11 AM
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Were the ColorHCFR guys close on your heals? I see that you reference eachother in a semi-mutual form so I thought that perhaps they were waiting for you and a little visa-versa?

Or do you really have no clue what stage they are at with their own update?

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post #1227 of 4025 Old 01-12-2009, 06:23 AM
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From known issues...

2) Through measurements it appears that the luma values for this disk might be slightly different than those used in the Digital Video Essentials HD Basics Blu-ray - see my measurements for further information. In use it appears this may change the second decimal point reported for gamma in measurements when compared to using Digital Video Essentials as a reference.

I think this is because DVE and AVS use different size windows compared to screen dimensions. That and DVE has additional signal included with the grey boxes in the form of pluge bars. This slight change in "percent of screen being illuminated" and the extra signal probably change the luminance Y reading at each IRE level.

This also causes the 100 IRE to have a different Luma value when reading light output at 100 IRE.

In addition, on my Plasma, IRE 50 and below is a little darker (higher number on the gamma scale) with DVE and 90 and 100 are a little brighter with DVE (Opposite of the 50 and below result). Visually looking at the gamma line, it gives you the impression that you are mor linear when using DVE. Although it is not that much different really. Then testing against Getgray, the same shift compared to DVE is there but not as pronounced on 50 and below but 60 and up are darker with Getgray (higher Gamma number) as the Windows on getgray are HUGE incomparison to either of the other two. The shift is only a 2 - 5% shift either way from disk to disk so I don't know how important that is. B ut it is there and that is why.

This is the reactional behaviour of my Plasma I suspect and is likely due to the windows being of a slightly different percentage of screen.

I just realised I have not tested your latest though. I will have to take it for a spin when the wife is not home. She hates when I play with this stuff.

C.

Panasonic 42" Plasma TH42-PZ85U
Panasonic Blueray Player DMP-BD35
Sony 5.1 Home Theater DAV-HDX475 (wish it was Panasonic but it's ok)
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post #1228 of 4025 Old 01-12-2009, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

m. zillch -- Your statements "don't compute" (???). Your words don't seem to match what you say plays and doesn't play. The real criteria is if both will play in your S350.

Both v1.0 and v.1.2 disks play in my Sony BDPS350 stand alone bluray player just fine. I just now double checked this. Version 1.2 [yes, the disk, not the hard drive file] however will not play on my computer using Intervideo WinDVD BD (for Vaio). Unlike the v1.0 disk I never see the "AVS HD 709" main menu but the disk does spin up and WinDVD BD displays the word "Stop" as if I had selected the stop button from playing a disk. Then hitting play fails to launch the disk either.

If instead of playing the disks I use Windows to "explore" the two disks I notice a different file structure is used on the two. Version 1.0, the one that works with my computer's software, has only one folder named "BDMV". Opening this reveals 6 subfolders. Version 1.2 however has two main folders. In addition to "BDMV" (which contains the same identically named subfolders) there is also a folder named "CERTIFICATE", containing an empty folder named "BACKUP".

I suspect this different file structure is the problem. Intervideo doesn't like disks with "certificates" (not that I know what that means); Sony doesn't mind.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #1229 of 4025 Old 01-12-2009, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I'm not sure what you mean by "Data DVD" and I don't know exactly which version you're using.

I downloaded a program, from www.imgburn.com, which is actually named "Express Burn" from "NCH software". It is version 4.16. In it one can select 6 different kinds of disks to burn: Audio CD, Data CD, Data DVD, Video DVD, Data Blu-ray, and finally Data HD-DVD. It pre-prompts, and I selected, "Data DVD". That's what I meant by "Data DVD". Since it works in my Sony BDPS350 stand alone player I'm pretty sure that's the right selection, but I thought I'd mention it. When I drag the file to it to burn it prompts "Do you want this burned as an ISO image ("disk"? If I recall. )" I say yes and away it goes. I think, but I'm not dead sure, I'm using the very first file from the very first page of the current thread ["AVCHD (.exe)" as it is now/ v1.2 that is], it is 1.82 GB and has a .ISO extension once I open it and it seems to self extract wanting to be burned by I think Roxio software, which I then decline to use and instead drag the icon from my desktop (the place where I told it to file itself) to the imgburn software instead .


Please also see my previous post for more details. Thanks.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #1230 of 4025 Old 01-12-2009, 07:53 AM
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Congrats and thanks for the v1.2 !!! As usual, it is very well done. I particularly like the APL options for grayscale and colors. Is it your opinion that using the APL windows will provide a slightly more accurate calibration (for real world viewing) than the non-APL windows ? I think that is the whole idea, correct.

I was a little bummed to see that my Panny BD-35 still does not offer up 24p with the new disc. I noticed that the BD-35 is actually recognizing the disc as a DVD-R when I use the "status" remote function. I wonder if this recognition is what is driving the player NOT to output 1080P/24 ? I would bet if I burn the patterns to a BD disc that this problem would be solved. Now just need to find someone with a BD burner and a favor owed.

Sean
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