AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 42 - AVS Forum
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post #1231 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

Congrats and thanks for the v1.2 !!! As usual, it is very well done. I particularly like the APL options for grayscale and colors. Is it your opinion that using the APL windows will provide a slightly more accurate calibration (for real world viewing) than the non-APL windows ? I think that is the whole idea, correct.

I was a little bummed to see that my Panny BD-35 still does not offer up 24p with the new disc. I noticed that the BD-35 is actually recognizing the disc as a DVD-R when I use the "status" remote function. I wonder if this recognition is what is driving the player NOT to output 1080P/24 ? I would bet if I burn the patterns to a BD disc that this problem would be solved. Now just need to find someone with a BD burner and a favor owed.

How does calibrating in 24p mode help calibration? Should the results not be exactly the same as if you run in 60p mode and then re-enable 24p mode?

What TV are you actually calibrating BTW?

C.

Panasonic 42" Plasma TH42-PZ85U
Panasonic Blueray Player DMP-BD35
Sony 5.1 Home Theater DAV-HDX475 (wish it was Panasonic but it's ok)
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post #1232 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvearl View Post

How does calibrating in 24p mode help calibration? Should the results not be exactly the same as if you run in 60p mode and then re-enable 24p mode?

What TV are you actually calibrating BTW?

C.

I believe color and grayscale should be no different, but there could be some differences in things like the resolution and sharpness patterns. As it stands, I don't see any issues with resolution at 1080P/60. Besides, I figure if I am watching in 1080P/24, I certainly want to calibrate at the same if at all possible.

I have a Sony 55A3000 (SXRD) and it does accept 24P natively and I believe at a 4X multiple even though it is 120 HZ capable.

Sean
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post #1233 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 11:47 AM
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^As long as the test pattern is a static image and not moving, I don't think frame rates matter with any devices.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #1234 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 02:50 PM
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i have to assume more and more people are going to become interested in "motion resolution". would it be possible some day to include a "motion resolution" monoscope test?

see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014030
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post #1235 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvearl View Post

I think this is because DVE and AVS use different size windows compared to screen dimensions.

My TV doesn't vary much at all between a white window and a white field for example, so I can't anticipate the repeated measurement difference would show up due to minor APL differences.
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post #1236 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stretch437 View Post

i have to assume more and more people are going to become interested in "motion resolution". would it be possible some day to include a "motion resolution" monoscope test?

I had read sites that referenced that, but I really don't know anything about the pattern and I'm somewhat confused why it would be 1080i.
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post #1237 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

Is it your opinion that using the APL windows will provide a slightly more accurate calibration (for real world viewing) than the non-APL windows ? I think that is the whole idea, correct.

The APL patterns were to look at relative Y levels for displays that vary light output depending on APL, such as the A3000 in the Auto iris modes. In the example of the A3000 the auto iris would generally be expected to remain constant if using the APL patterns and to vary if using typical patterns. If the iris varies then the measurements aren't relative to each other like would be expected for gamma or setting color Y by measurements.

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I was a little bummed to see that my Panny BD-35 still does not offer up 24p with the new disc. I noticed that the BD-35 is actually recognizing the disc as a DVD-R when I use the "status" remote function.

I'm not really sure what's going on with that player. The product page lists AVCHD for DVD-ram, DVD+R/RW, and memory card. There is a thread about the player on the Doom9 forum and the latest talk when I read had to do with 4.0 instead of 4.1 encoding for a playback issue, but I'm still not sure that cleared up the 24p item.
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post #1238 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I had read sites that referenced that, but I really don't know anything about the pattern and I'm somewhat confused why it would be 1080i.

It's probably a test of the deinterlacer in the TV.

If the deinterlacer isn't doing the right thing you will lose vertical resolution so that would be an issue for TVs connected over HDMI that don't support 24p.
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post #1239 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

It's probably a test of the deinterlacer in the TV.

That's usually not the way it's presented in what I had ran across, for example http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1107hook2/ or http://www.hdguru.com/will-you-see-a...exclusive/287/ (same author)
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post #1240 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 05:24 PM
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Hmmm. That still sounds like a test of motion or pixel adaptive de-interlacing.

Personally I'm not to worried about that kind of stuff anyway since I turn as much stuff off in the TV as possible.
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post #1241 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

If instead of playing the disks I use Windows to "explore" the two disks I notice a different file structure is used on the two. Version 1.0, the one that works with my computer's software, has only one folder named "BDMV". Opening this reveals 6 subfolders. Version 1.2 however has two main folders. In addition to "BDMV" (which contains the same identically named subfolders) there is also a folder named "CERTIFICATE", containing an empty folder named "BACKUP".

Okay, good eye. I really have no idea what happened, because the CERTIFICATE folder was already deleted in my working files but somehow like you said it ended up in the AVCHD iso. I downloaded the WinDVD trial and v1.0 or a revised v1.2 AVCHD play the same for me with the software. Anyway I'm going to take down the v1.2 AVCHD and replace it with a corrected version created from my working files. There will be a revision reply when it is completed.
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post #1242 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 06:48 PM
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Yea! -thanks. [I have a weird version of WinDVD BD made for Sony vaio computers so this may only apply to me, but thanks.]
----------------------------------------------------------------
I also cast my vote for the "moving monoscope pattern" that is mentioned in those articles above, if that's possible. I too understood it to be a way to analyze the resolution loss induced from a moving image, so a moving resolution chart as opposed to a static one is used. I think it can occur not only due to poor motion adaptive de-interlacing (MADI), but also because of the poor refresh rate of some technologies such as large LCD flat panels which still show image smearing when there is motion. The newer ones ones that combine 120Hz and additionally frame interpolation ("frame creation" as it is called on the Panasonic PTAE3000, for example) can correct for this if done properly, however they have their own drawbacks to contend with (artificial/CGI looking film reproduction, a slight video processing delay so lip synch may be lost/gamers might hate it, and too smooth motion at times, IMO).

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #1243 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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The current AVCHD download files went through a minor revision from the first v1.2 upload. The only change is that the AVCHD now has been created using ImgBurn 2.4.1.0 and does not include a CERTIFICATE folder. For most people who downloaded the 1.2 AVCHD before the revision, there is probably no reason to download the changed v1.2b AVCHD files. Based on prior testing, a majority of AVCHD players will play the same regardless if the CERTIFICATE folder is included or not included. This revision was primarily made simply to keep the disc in line with the original authoring intent.
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post #1244 of 4003 Old 01-12-2009, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Yea! -thanks. [I have a weird version of WinDVD BD made for Sony vaio computers so this may only apply to me, but thanks.]
----------------------------------------------------------------
I also cast my vote for the "moving monoscope pattern" that is mentioned in those articles above, if that's possible. I too understood it to be a way to analyze the resolution loss induced from a moving image, so a moving resolution chart as opposed to a static one is used. I think it can occur not only due to poor motion adaptive de-interlacing (MADI), but also because of the poor refresh rate of some technologies such as large LCD flat panels which still show image smearing when there is motion. The newer ones ones that combine 120Hz and additionally frame interpolation ("frame creation" as it is called on the Panasonic PTAE3000, for example) can correct for this if done properly, however they have their own drawbacks to contend with (artificial/CGI looking film reproduction, a slight video processing delay so lip synch may be lost/gamers might hate it, and too smooth motion at times, IMO).

seems like it would be useful to have two moving resolution patterns- one in 1080p to test blur inherent in the display and one in 1080i to test any additional issues due to deinterlacing.

and to bring an earlier discussion full circle, it is possible you will get different "motion resolution" scores depending on which *frame rate* you are using (even on the same display). for instance my panasonic pro plasma can display 24 fps material at either 48 Hz or 96 Hz . supposedly the 48 gets you better motion resolution (at the price of increased flicker - everything's a trade-off ;> ).
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post #1245 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 12:04 AM
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I cant seem to get this to work...

I got the iso and am trying to image burn it when it gets to 5% and says

Data Error "Cyclic redundancy check."

Anyone know what this means and anyway to fix it????
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post #1246 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by grifter024 View Post

Data Error "Cyclic redundancy check."

I put this in Google and it returned a number of different directions. There were things like checking the download, checking your hard drive, reseating the physical connections to the disks, burning at a slower speed... Generally I can't really give much of a guess without more information.
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post #1247 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 06:00 AM
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Any chance of hosting the files somewhere else? I have been trying to
download the files from sendspace and I am getting transfer speeds
of less than a byte per second....

Just to make sure that everything is ok on my end I tried downloading
the RC1-files from SpectraCal which went just fine...

/Ingvar
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post #1248 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 07:03 AM
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Thanks for another great disc. The color scales patterns are already proving very useful!! One feature request I'd like to make is to please consider adding another pattern just like it, except going from 80% to 100% in 1% increments. We are doing a ton of work in the RS20 calibration thread and it has clipping issues depending on how hard you work to correct the colors. 5% steps gives us an idea but is a bit too coarse so it would be great to see at exactly what % it begins to clip so we can make the necessary adjustments and tradeoffs.

Also is it my imagination or does the disc now change a bit faster going from the main menus to the patterns? I have to go back and forth a lot between the 75% color patterns and the 100% ones, so any future improvements that are possible to continue to speed up this switching would sure be fantastic. And best yet if at all possible it would be great if the output resolution (1080p/24) could be held the whole way from menus to patterns and back. The RS20 kicks you out of the menus if the resolution changes and all work gets lost - so when switching between 75% and 100% you have to save your work at a point where you really are not ready to commit it yet. Thanks again!
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post #1249 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 07:19 AM
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Great work on the disk.
I have only had a chance to use it on my own system but navigation speeds have greatly increased over the previous releases.
I appreciate the effort you have put forward in creating this for us.

Thanks again
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post #1250 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The APL patterns were to look at relative Y levels for displays that vary light output depending on APL, such as the A3000 in the Auto iris modes. In the example of the A3000 the auto iris would generally be expected to remain constant if using the APL patterns and to vary if using typical patterns. If the iris varies then the measurements aren't relative to each other like would be expected for gamma or setting color Y by measurements.

That makes sense. I've settled on fixed iris for the last year and a half now, so using APL should make little difference for me. Still, if I ever figure out my i1/HCFR color reading problem, I would like to play around with the new patterns to see if I notice any differences. I have experimented with full fields vs windows in the past with no noticable difference in readings.

Sean
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post #1251 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 03:02 PM
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Ok I saved the file on a zip drive and took it to a friend and was able to burn it ...now I have another question.

Ok I am a noob at calibrating tv's even though I have read most of the stuff here ...(I read most of THIS thread and didnt know anything from pages 1-3) . Now I was wondering if I dont have anything BUT this disk....would I be able to calibrate my tv or just wasting my time?

Plus what would I need to calibrate my tv and is it free or do I have to order it and wait and wait??
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post #1252 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 03:29 PM
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There are levels to a calibration.

1. Better than nothing. Use the brightness/contrast patters to set those properly. All you need is the disc.

2. Beginner. Use a blue filter (available from THX for a small fee) to set colour and tint.

3. Advanced hobbyist. By an inexpensive colorimeter (Display LT or one of the Spyders) and use software to measure (ColorHCFR or Calman).

4. Pro level. Buy more advanced/multiple sensors.
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post #1253 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grifter024 View Post

Ok I saved the file on a zip drive and took it to a friend and was able to burn it ...now I have another question.

Ok I am a noob at calibrating tv's even though I have read most of the stuff here ...(I read most of THIS thread and didnt know anything from pages 1-3) . Now I was wondering if I dont have anything BUT this disk....would I be able to calibrate my tv or just wasting my time?

Plus what would I need to calibrate my tv and is it free or do I have to order it and wait and wait??

Disclaimer: I have DVE HD Basics Blueray, Getgray, AVS 709, the one made by Tom Huffman (which is more for use with a meter) and I have seen Avia in action once. Of the disks out there, AVS 709 is undoubtedly the best when used WITH it's manual. Alot of MUST KNOW type info in the manual that makes the Basic settings on the disk all the more valuable. Job well done.

As for the use of this disk or any other for calibration?

You can really dial in Brightness really great with this disk.

You can confirm that you at least do NOT have whites clipped when adjusting Contrast (aka Picture).

You can get pretty bang on for SHARPNESS setting using a sharpness pattern from the disk.

You can use the 25 step greyscale pattern to at least know if you have fairly neutral greyscale from Dark to Light. Otherwise the grey bars will be pink or blue or green and none of those are very ideal to have. Hopefully it is only faint. But if it all looks simply grey than you are in business! But there will be little you can do about it without a meter and software and an understanding.

Color and Tint? Hahahaha. Don't get me started. But this has nothing to do with AVS 709. All the disks like this and DVE HD Blueray are great but the act of using filters is just not quite right for many sets.

You are almost better off doing color by eye than using filters on many displays. My PZ85 using a Blue filter to look through ends up at a setting that is just too high for the Color Control by 3 or more clicks. I was just as well off leaving it at factory or lowering it a few clicks until skin looked right in Bluerays. Cannot calibrate for TV channels though. Need a signal generator for that. That and most channels are dirty versions of originals anyway and calibration make little difference there due to channel to channel variance.

Joe Kane from DVE basically has good advice on his disk. Use the blue filter to dial the color control up. That's fine. Line up the tint. That's great too. Leave tint alone now and turn color control DOWN until skin looks right. This is because 90% of sets out there have what is called an oversaturated Red (red push). On purpose. So people might look just a touch rosy cheeked having dialed up color with the blue filter. You should then watch a movie you are familiar with and drop color a little at a time until YOU think skin looks right.

If you have an actual CMS (Color Managment System) in your TV and can actually deal with the primaries and secondaries individually? Well then get a probe like the i1 D2 and ColorHCFR ot CalMAN and you will still use this disk.

Constrast, Brightness and Sharpness are VERY important though so it is VERY good for that.

My 2 cents anyway.

C.

Panasonic 42" Plasma TH42-PZ85U
Panasonic Blueray Player DMP-BD35
Sony 5.1 Home Theater DAV-HDX475 (wish it was Panasonic but it's ok)
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post #1254 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 04:03 PM
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Ok thanks guys.

I have calibrated it before and I got the disk from HERE (Cant seem to find it anymore) but all it was was basic stuff (Bright,contrast,flag test and others) .

I just wanted to see if I was going to waste my time since I saw LOTS of options ., but I think I have a pretty good picture now and the HD-dvd movies I watch look really good (Cinderella man was looking good last night)
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post #1255 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inol View Post

Any chance of hosting the files somewhere else?

ColorHCFR offered to host the files at one point, I think while we were still in the beta versions. We had also used filesend at one point, but I kept getting disconnects on uploads from them. Unless ColorHCFR would host the files, sendspace is the best option that I could come up with.
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post #1256 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
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(Cinderella man was looking good last night)

Down boy...

Bob.
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post #1257 of 4003 Old 01-13-2009, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
One feature request I'd like to make is to please consider adding another pattern just like it, except going from 80% to 100% in 1% increments.
Offering to work on such a thing and contribute to the project will give you the best chance of getting it and having a working disc in a short turnaround time. I can do formatting things with relative ease, but what you requested has over 120 colors. If you want to fill the colors for RGBYCM and gray I can complete it. I would recommend going by 2s and ignoring percentages, so that would be RGB values of 235, 233, 231, 229 etc. The bars from the current image are in the images.zip file.

Quote:
Also is it my imagination or does the disc now change a bit faster going from the main menus to the patterns?
I counted the time in testing and my player and display seemed about 2 seconds quicker.

Quote:
And best yet if at all possible it would be great if the output resolution (1080p/24) could be held the whole way from menus to patterns and back.
The v1.2 AVCHD video should be 23.976 AVC and the menus are 23.976 mpeg2, so the resolution and framerate shouldn't actually change.

Quote:
The RS20 kicks you out of the menus if the resolution changes and all work gets lost
I don't know anything about your display and player, but the attached test.zip uses matching mpeg2 menus and video in an AVCHD format. The video is the w6rz related filmjudder pattern. Anyway it would test if your display kicks you out if the video and menu match. The only way we could do this sort of thing is using mpeg2 video at the current time, so it's not a serious option for the entire disk.

 

images.zip 47.939453125k . file

 

test.zip 366.6484375k . file
Attached Files
File Type: zip test.zip (366.6 KB, 1 views)
File Type: zip images.zip (47.9 KB, 1 views)
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post #1258 of 4003 Old 01-14-2009, 02:53 AM
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alluringreality -- BTW - FYI, your MD5 error checking is actually called "Hashes" not "Hatches", AFIK. That is also what Ubuntu Linux calls them for error checking their OS downloads. Just a very minor semantical nit that I picked.

Thanks for all your efforts (and that of your collaborators). BTW, I wrote the GetGray Instructions (the GetGrayCalDiscReadMe), with editorial corrections from Scott, and lots of help from some of the same people who helped you. Getting everything for everybody is not a simple task.

BTW, I'm getting between 95 & 130 KB/sec (~106KB/sec, Avg.) download speed from SendSpace after 1:00 AM, PST, using my FireFox browser on Linux (DSL service).

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #1259 of 4003 Old 01-14-2009, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

alluringreality -- BTW - FYI, your MD5 error checking is actually called "Hashes" not "Hatches", AFIK. That is also what Ubuntu Linux calls them for error checking their OS downloads. Just a very minor semantical nit that I picked.

I think you're right. I probably used whatever was in the Wiki at the time, so it's probably been that way for a couple months and was just moved to a more prominent location.
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post #1260 of 4003 Old 01-14-2009, 08:14 AM
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wow, I've just found about V 1.2, a great disc made even better! thx!!!
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