AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 57 - AVS Forum
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post #1681 of 4106 Old 07-20-2009, 11:01 PM
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Which would be more accurate to set black for plasmas. avs hd or dve hd basic
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post #1682 of 4106 Old 07-20-2009, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I have searched and found the PS3 settings, but have not found this addressed:

HDMI Black Level

My Samsung LCD has a setting for "HDMI Black Level" either Low or Normal.

Which is correct for our purposes?

You didn't mention which Samsung LCD display you are using (they have many models). However, based on my new Samsung LCD HDTV (UN32B6000), I would guess that "Normal" refers to clipping the signal at video black = digital 16, and "Low" would permit displaying signal undershoot (below digital 16 video black) -- sometimes called the "expanded" range, which is what I think the PS3 calls it.

NOTE: My manual also states: "The HDMI Black Level function may not be compatible with all external devices."

As I see it you have 4 combinations of choices, 2 on the PS3 and 2 on your Samsung. You may have to try all 4 to see which gives you the best results.

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post #1683 of 4106 Old 07-20-2009, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff6666p View Post

Which would be more accurate to set black for plasmas. avs hd or dve hd basic

I would guess that the AVS HD 709 would be better. A lot also depends on the amount of ambient light in your room.

I haven't played my copy of DVE HD Basics yet, but they use a 50% APL (AFIK) for their black level test pattern, which makes it difficult to set the black level accurately.

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post #1684 of 4106 Old 07-21-2009, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

I would guess that the AVS HD 709 would be better. A lot also depends on the amount of ambient light in your room.

I haven't played my copy of DVE HD Basics yet, but they use a 50% APL (AFIK) for their black level test pattern, which makes it difficult to set the black level accurately.

What APL level should we be using to set the black levels correctly?

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post #1685 of 4106 Old 07-21-2009, 12:23 PM
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i don't know about "correctly" but the Chris Wiggles source settings guide recommends the DVE 20% gray window :

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Background Guide to Setting Source Options
Using DVE, I particularly like Title 12, Chps 13-15. Chp 13 has a 20% center bar that is not blindingly bright when you raise your black levels to see the three bars beside it. If you’re not familiar with DVE, the two pairs of inner bars are above black, the background is black (digital 16) and the outermost pair of bars are below black. If your system is preserving BTB data, you will see all three bars when you raise your black level at your display to observe.

as far as "correct", i personally believe on plasmas and CRT's you can get adequately "correct" results using a 50% APL, but you will just have to get very close to the screen and physically shield your eyes from the bright parts to see the blacks well enough to set levels. that may be the main reason why CT_Wiebe is saying this pattern makes setting levels "difficult" (note he did not actually say "wrong").

i personally use the AVS HD chapter 2 "APL Clipping pattern" where, again, it may be a little hard to see, but it gives a result that works for me.
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post #1686 of 4106 Old 07-21-2009, 12:41 PM
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Thanks for the response alluringreality. The bars going from 1-25 are still strange though, if I select RGB Full, I can see all the different bars on the first test, but when I return to the ps3 xmb, and look at a dark image I have saved as a screenshot, I can't see any detail, it's too dark, likewise, when I select 'RGB Limited', and make the display able to show bars 17-25, and then return to the xmb and play some games, everything is too bright and grey! (I'm sure thereason for this has been explained elsewhere, I just probably haven't understood it.) Thanks
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post #1687 of 4106 Old 07-21-2009, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigsworthy View Post

Thanks for the response alluringreality. The bars going from 1-25 are still strange though, if I select RGB Full, I can see all the different bars on the first test, but when I return to the ps3 xmb, and look at a dark image I have saved as a screenshot, I can't see any detail, it's too dark, likewise, when I select 'RGB Limited', and make the display able to show bars 17-25, and then return to the xmb and play some games, everything is too bright and grey! (I'm sure thereason for this has been explained elsewhere, I just probably haven't understood it.) Thanks

TV's operate in the 16 to 235 range, not 0 to 255. This applies to video content and games designed to be played on a TV. The RGB Full option is only for owners of PC Monitors which use the 0 to 255 range. If you connect your PS3 to a PC Monitor RGB Full is right but RGB Limited is right for a TV.

If you set RGB to Limited and set brightness to the lowest setting at which 17 still flashes, you've set the brightness control correctly. If it appears too bright then that is a result of your TV's black level, and the only thing that might help is turning your backlight setting lower (if available). LCD TV's on average tend to produce a gray black when compared to CRT and Plasma TV's. LED-backlit LCD TV's may produce deeper black levels, but they are pricey currently.
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post #1688 of 4106 Old 07-21-2009, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch437 View Post

i don't know about "correctly" but the Chris Wiggles source settings guide recommends the DVE 20% gray window :



as far as "correct", i personally believe on plasmas and CRT's you can get adequately "correct" results using a 50% APL, but you will just have to get very close to the screen and physically shield your eyes from the bright parts to see the blacks well enough to set levels. that may be the main reason why CT_Wiebe is saying this pattern makes setting levels "difficult" (note he did not actually say "wrong").

i personally use the AVS HD chapter 2 "APL Clipping pattern" where, again, it may be a little hard to see, but it gives a result that works for me.

Stetch, thank you for your reply.
So I guess I need to recalibrate, since I used the DVE BD pattern. That would make my luminance too high, right?

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post #1689 of 4106 Old 07-21-2009, 06:15 PM
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not necessarily. again, i don't think anyone said DVE gives *wrong* results. it just might be so bright you are tempted to set luminance a little high. but these are subtleties. just using the disc at all should get your levels way closer than doing nothing, high APL or no.
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post #1690 of 4106 Old 07-21-2009, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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pigsworthy - For simplicity the most widely applicable response is in line with what PlasmaPZ80U had to say. The rest of this is just if you want further details.

A complication with black levels is that there are two standards for how black can be carried over HDMI. Either computer levels (full) are used so that black is at digital 0, or video levels (limited) are used so that black is at 16. Ideally the PS3 should convert everything to one standard so that video, images, and games are all being sent with black at the same level. If that is the case, then the brightness setting for video would also apply to images or games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pigsworthy View Post
if I select RGB Full, I can see all the different bars on the first test
When you say you can see all the bars:
- Did you mean that you can see 1-25 if you turn up brightness? (not expected for RGB full)
- Or did you mean that you can see 17-25? (as described for setting brightness)
- Or is this maybe a mistake and you meant you can't see any of the bars? (brightness too low)

If the device is really outputting an RGB full range then it would typically be expected that the video would be remapped, so 1-16 would never be able to flash.

Quote:
when I return to the ps3 xmb, and look at a dark image I have saved as a screenshot
An issue with looking at a saved image is that some other setting could come into play that doesn't apply to video. For example http://www.avforums.com/forums/ps3-m...ml#post7245645 mentions that it's possible to change how images are displayed on a PS3. Ideally black would always be the same level regardless of the source, but that might not necessarily be the case.

Quote:
I can't see any detail, it's too dark, likewise, when I select 'RGB Limited', and make the display able to show bars 17-25, and then return to the xmb and play some games, everything is too bright and grey!
Attached is an image that shows levels 0-25. Ideally black in the image (the background - 0) would be the same shade as black in the video (16).

 

Image-Black.zip 33.5126953125k . file
Attached Files
File Type: zip Image-Black.zip (33.5 KB, 23 views)
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post #1691 of 4106 Old 07-21-2009, 09:24 PM
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I have tried the AVCHD version to calibrate my Pioneer bdp 320 blu ray player and PS3 with my Sony XBR4 tv set. Everything is fine, except the contrast. I have turned the contrast to Max. in XBR4, but still nearly half of the vertical bars are flashing(from left to middle), is it normal? What can I do so that only 234 bar is flashing?

Pls note that I have turned off all the advanced setting, and I use "Custom mode" , "Warm 2" as my color temp. for my calibration. Same case happened in my PS3.
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post #1692 of 4106 Old 07-21-2009, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackynJenny View Post

I have turned the contrast to Max. in XBR4, but still nearly half of the vertical bars are flashing(from left to middle), is it normal? What can I do so that only 234 bar is flashing?

You've reversed the instructions. Review section "3 - White Clipping Pattern".
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post #1693 of 4106 Old 07-22-2009, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackynJenny View Post

I have turned the contrast to Max. in XBR4, but still nearly half of the vertical bars are flashing(from left to middle), is it normal?

Not all displays will be able to clip at white. Even if they could it might not be recommended, because gamma might not be linear all the way to clipping. The described behavior seems normal for the Sony digital displays I've messed with.
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post #1694 of 4106 Old 07-22-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigsworthy View Post

Thanks for the response alluringreality. The bars going from 1-25 are still strange though, if I select RGB Full, I can see all the different bars on the first test, but when I return to the ps3 xmb, and look at a dark image I have saved as a screenshot, I can't see any detail, it's too dark, likewise, when I select 'RGB Limited', and make the display able to show bars 17-25, and then return to the xmb and play some games, everything is too bright and grey! (I'm sure thereason for this has been explained elsewhere, I just probably haven't understood it.) Thanks

What may be confusing you is that the PS3 has multiple options. The RGB Full/Limited option controls whether computer/studio levels are used when information is encoded using RGB, as is always the case for XMB and games. There is another bluray/DVD video output format that controls whether DVDs are encoded using RGB or YCbCr. If the DVD video output format is set to YCbCr, while the RGB level is set to Full, you can create the difficult situation where films are using levels 16-235 while XMB and games are using levels 0-255 on the same connection, implying two different calibrations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I have searched and found the PS3 settings, but have not found this addressed:

HDMI Black Level

My Samsung LCD has a setting for "HDMI Black Level" either Low or Normal.

Which is correct for our purposes?

The correct answer for the Samsung A650 LCD and similar models is whichever option matches the PS3. If the PS3 is using its Limited range (16-235) while the Samsung is set to normal (0-255), or if the PS3 is using its Full range (0-255) while the Samsung is set to its low (16-235) range, then calibration will be difficult.

Samsung does not help to clarify the situation, as when its RGB option (HDMI Black level) is disabled for YCbCr content, the grayed out box reads Normal even while the set is expecting its Low (16-235) levels.

Easiest is to configure the PS3 to use YCbCr, so that you can enable SuperWhite on to allow WTW beyond reference white, and to use RGB Limited so that it is using the same video levels for games as it will for films encoded in YCbCr. If the PS3 is set to Limited, then for its XMB and Game material the Samsung can be set to Low. This easy solution may have the drawback on games that take advantage of 0-255 levels in that it would introduce color banding. (There may be more subtleties here on the gaming side, as when I calibrated using a PS3 the focus was on film, and RGB Limited worked fine for the few games that were tested.)

An alternative that I have not tried personally is to configure the PS3 to use RGB for films, then set its RGB level to Full (0-255) and configure the Samsung to Normal to match. Now films and games will both use computer levels; what you lose is the BTB and WTW ranges on the calibration disk, and access to any content beyond reference white when watching films. This alternative configuration could also be useful to allow one to calibrate RGB Full game output from the PS3, even if one used a second YCbCr calibration for bluray/DVD content.

This subject becomes very confusing when people discuss the PS3 mentioning only one option, without specifying the values of the other two. Its RGB Full/Limited option matters all the time for XMB and games. Its Superwhite option matters only for YCbCr, not RGB. And its bluray/DVD video output format chooses which format is used for films, RGB or YCbCr.
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post #1695 of 4106 Old 07-22-2009, 01:40 PM
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I don't think any PS3 games are optimized for 0-255 since most PS3 users play games on a TV, not a computer monitor. Playing games with RGB Full results in black crush on my TV.
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post #1696 of 4106 Old 07-22-2009, 05:24 PM
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I cant download, all the links will stop at 99% downloaded.
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post #1697 of 4106 Old 07-22-2009, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

I cant download, all the links will stop at 99% downloaded.

From time to time there have been issues reported with sendspace, but the site was working when I tried. Personally if I was having the issue I might try downloading with a different browser, or else use a downloader like FlashGet or Orbit.
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post #1698 of 4106 Old 07-25-2009, 11:28 AM
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Question: When i run the black clipping pattern through media player classic on my PC via HDMI to the 500M, I can never see the full spectrum of flashing bars even if I turn up the brightness to full. The laptop I'm running is a Dell Studio XPS 16 with an ATi 4670 video card. If it is a problem with the ATi settings, does anyone know a way to remedy this so I can do a proper calibration? Thanks.
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post #1699 of 4106 Old 07-26-2009, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150Joker View Post

When i run the black clipping pattern through media player classic on my PC via HDMI to the 500M, I can never see the full spectrum of flashing bars even if I turn up the brightness to full.

Generally this is to be expected, because you're using a computer.

COMPUTER AND VIDEO LEVELS
Computers and video use different ranges for black to white. With computer levels black is expected at 0 and white at 255, and sometimes computer levels are called Full or 0-255. On the other hand with video black is at 16 and white at 235, video also allows for 1-15 below black and 236-254 above white information that isn't necessarily expected to be displayed, and sometimes video levels are called Limited or 16-235. Blu-ray or DVD use video levels, so the Black Clipping Pattern shows levels from 1-25 with 16 being black.

By default most computers will decode video and expand it to match the Full range, so 16 from the video goes to 0 and 235 ends up at 255 and the information outside the 16-235 range is lost. What this means for the Black Clipping Pattern is that 17-25 are the only bars that are able to flash if video is expanded to computer levels. Even if video is expanded to computer levels the Black Clipping Pattern can still be used to set brightness on the TV, just set brightness to the lowest setting where the bar marked 17 just barely flashes.

Quote:
If it is a problem with the ATi settings, does anyone know a way to remedy this so I can do a proper calibration?

If 17-25 flash on the Black Clipping pattern, you can set the brightness control on the display. One complication can be that by default most TVs expect a Limited or video input, rather than a computer input. If you are sending computer levels to your TV you might need to change a setting on the display to expect a Full range. At least that's how my Sony works, by default it expects a video input and it's best to set the TV to Full if the input uses computer levels.

In the ATI control panel the Avivo Video area is generally the place that controls video expansion. There is another set of brightness and contrast controls in the ATI panel under the "color" heading, but I would suggest leaving those controls at their default settings. On my card if I set the Avivo Video brightness to 16 and the Avivo Video contrast to 86 then the whole video range seems to be passed to the TV and Limited can be used at the display. I've read that FFdshow can also be used in the same way to retain the whole Limited range in a computer output, but the complication with either option is that then black for video doesn't match black for general computer use. On the other hand if you leave the Avivo Video brightness at 0 while setting the Avivo Video contrast to the high 90s it's possible to retain some above white from the video (CRT appears to display some above white), while leaving black at the same level for video and computer use.

Anyway I just tried to touch on a few main points:
- Video and computers use different ranges for black and white
- By default computers generally expand video levels to computer levels, which cuts off the 1-15 information shown on the Black Clipping Pattern
- You may need to set the display to expect a Full output from a computer
- There may be different ways for how you can deal with how your computer outputs video if you wish to change the default behavior
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post #1700 of 4106 Old 07-26-2009, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Today I uploaded a few minor revisions to correct some items reported from the v1.3 release. Since this update only includes minor changes, the documentation still reads v1.3 and merely the download files have changed as noted below.

1) HDMV and PATCHED versions were modified to correct for the end of section chapter skipping issue reported in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16741740 Now for all sections in the HDMV and PATCHED versions, when you reach the end of the section a chapter skip should return to the first chapter.
2) PDFs were modified to correct for the spelling mistake reported in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16736783
3) No changes were made to files for the v1.3 AVCHD, HD DVD, and MP4 versions.


NOTES FOR PRIOR RELEASES:
v1.3 Update Notes (5/24/09)
AVCHD v1.2b Revision (1/12/09)
v1.2 Release Notes (1/11/09)
AVS HD 709 v1.0 Update (11/1/08)
Release Candidate 1 (2/12/08)
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post #1701 of 4106 Old 07-27-2009, 02:17 PM
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My Sony SXRD has Grayscale adjustments for each primary color. May I use those settings and this wonderful AVS HD 709 disc to obtain accurate results with only the aid of color filters, or are those settings best reserved for equipment calibration only? They are all set to factory default, which is 0, now.

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post #1702 of 4106 Old 07-27-2009, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovswr View Post

My Sony SXRD has Grayscale adjustments

Filters won't help with grayscale adjustments. Generally you need some sort of a reference for gray, such as a meter or gray cards and a neutral light.
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post #1703 of 4106 Old 07-27-2009, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovswr View Post

My Sony SXRD has Grayscale adjustments for each primary color. May I use those settings and this wonderful AVS HD 709 disc to obtain accurate results with only the aid of color filters, or are those settings best reserved for equipment calibration only? They are all set to factory default, which is 0, now.

In case you haven't seen this it is really worth checking out: GREYSCALE & COLOUR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES.

You can pick up an inexpensive EyeOne DisplayLt meter from Amazon and calibrate your grayscale. You'll be very pleased with the results and you'll learn so much in the process.
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post #1704 of 4106 Old 07-27-2009, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

In case you haven't seen this it is really worth checking out: GREYSCALE & COLOUR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES.

You can pick up an inexpensive EyeOne DisplayLt meter from Amazon and calibrate your grayscale. You'll be very pleased with the results and you'll learn so much in the process.

Good advice. I've done just that myself and couldn't be happier with the results on my Plasma TV.
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post #1705 of 4106 Old 07-28-2009, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

In case you haven't seen this it is really worth checking out: GREYSCALE & COLOUR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES.

You can pick up an inexpensive EyeOne DisplayLt meter from Amazon and calibrate your grayscale. You'll be very pleased with the results and you'll learn so much in the process.


Thanks, I will check it out. However I am a idiot. Indeed it was not Grayscale settings, but gamma settings (two each for the 3 primary colors) that are in the Advanced menu on my set. I will check into the Grayscale too though.



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post #1706 of 4106 Old 07-28-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovswr View Post

Thanks, I will check it out. However I am a idiot. Indeed it was not Grayscale settings, but gamma settings (two each for the 3 primary colors) that are in the Advanced menu on my set. I will check into the Grayscale too though.

Actually, in setting the correct grayscale using the techniques in that "dummies" guide, you will be going a long way towards getting an appropriate gamma value for your set. Read the guide; it's excellent. I knew nothing about this stuff at first--didn't know what gamma was, afraid to go into my service menu, never cared to go beyond the Brightness and Picture settings on my set--and after slowly and carefully reading that guide, this thread, and specific reports from fellow AVS'ers who have a set like mine (like daMaster), I feel confident that I know what's going on. Be patient, go slow, and it will be worth it.
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post #1707 of 4106 Old 07-28-2009, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovswr View Post

Indeed it was not Grayscale settings, but gamma settings (two each for the 3 primary colors) that are in the Advanced menu on my set.

On the SXRD TVs the White Balance area is grayscale. There is also a gamma setting that when not off will raise the light output for the middle range, effectively lowering the average gamma. I would generally suggest leaving the gamma and black corrector items set to off, based on how they change on-screen gamma.
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post #1708 of 4106 Old 07-28-2009, 05:09 PM
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Purchase or borrow an Eye One meter and install Color HCFR software (free), follow the instructions from the link, and you will not be disappointed. Once you get the hang of it, you'll find yourself calibrating all your displays. Once your friends see the results, expect requests.

If going into the service menu makes you the slightest bit nervous, do not enter it.

Good luck and have fun,

Bob.
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post #1709 of 4106 Old 07-28-2009, 08:25 PM
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The titles on the Black Clipping Pattern are bright enough to mask the bars. Particularly 17 from the vertical text on 16. Has thought been given to dimming that text?
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post #1710 of 4106 Old 07-29-2009, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

On the SXRD TVs the White Balance area is grayscale. There is also a gamma setting that when not off will raise the light output for the middle range, effectively lowering the average gamma. I would generally suggest leaving the gamma and black corrector items set to off, based on how they change on-screen gamma.


The wealth of information here at AVS is almost overwhelming. Having said that...


I am completely & totally amazed! I vaguely knew of this thread, but did not participate until last night.

I have a Sony 60A2020, which is to say a 60" rear projection LcOS set. It is on its second bulb.

As I was going through the AVCHD (PS3) I was a little disappointed as it was seeming that all my settings were going to match what I got from DVE. Lo & behold, it was when I got to the Color/Tint section that I was blow away.

Sony sets, as a design choice, have a noticable red push, since the 70's. For whatever reason, Sony engineers just do it this way. Once I found this out, however, I went on a never ending quest to make Red, well Red. Sadly I had resigned myself to never getting a good deep red on this set, as I could never get the settings just right. Until last night. Using this wonderful resource, I was able (IMHO) to successfully tame my red push while maintaining the other primary colors fidelity.


Now as happy as I was with getting good reds, what I was not prepared for was the clarity. Apparently having well adjusted colors is crucial to over all resolution. I was astounded when watching Anderson Cooper to see (I mean really see) all of the cake white makeup he had on, yet I could still make out the subtle pink hues of his cheeks. Also the Hispanic reporter that he was talking to, had very fine blond hairs that I had never been able to see before. This experience was repeated on several other HD channesl. It was almost like getting my first HDTV 4 years ago.

Special thanks to alluringreality & whoever else participated in the creation of this wonderful tool.




In my most humblest of ways, I would like to give a little back to this thread. I have created a disc logo from the graphic in the OP. I did not attempt to change the fromat to match the 'roundness' of DVD's because a: I don't know how & b: I think it is a pleasing effect. Again thanks.







carry on with your HD-Lite Directv loving banter! <--Comedy Gold
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