AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 59 - AVS Forum
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post #1741 of 4034 Old 08-13-2009, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

What kind of displays use the APL gray and APL color windows (ColorHCFR)?

I have a plasma...

The APL window patterns were mainly created to measure the auto iris setting on my SXRD. The idea is that the average picture level doesn't change on the APL window patterns, so the iris (or any other dynamic setting) will not adjust during measurements. With a typical window or field the average picture level changes with each pattern, and on a dynamic iris that will cause the light output to change between different patterns. The problem with the iris adjustment is for example the measured gamma is nonsense and the Y measurements for color are not relative to each other. So the main point of the APL window patterns was to stop any dynamic display from adjusting so that relative Y measurements can be taken - primarily for gamma and color.

I've read about floating black levels on some plasmas (Panasonic?), and in such a case the APL windows would stop that sort of behavior for measurements. I haven't looked at how much blacks might change on some plasmas, but odds are that floating blacks will not impact measurements near as much as an adjusting projector iris or a dynamic LCD might. The only other possibly plasma-related use of the APL windows would be if power limiting affects the relative Y measurements for color. Again I haven't looked into this at all either, so I don't know if relative Y for color would vary much between typical color windows and APL color windows, but I'd expect the APL color window measurements to be directly relative to each other and generally in line with what you'll get from a movie scene.

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What about the APL clipping pattern?

The black clipping pattern has an extremely low average picture level, and the white clipping pattern is extremely high. The APL clipping pattern has an average picture level that is going to be closer to say a typical movie scene. The pattern is mainly included to offer an alternate pattern for setting white and black levels, sort of like how DVE has more than one pluge pattern.


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post #1742 of 4034 Old 08-13-2009, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

Long-time owner of the BH200 here.

Wanted to let everyone know with the newest firmware (July 09) update that the AVS HD HDMV (EDIT - not iso) works after burning to a DVD-R -- but the AVCHD iso does not.

Thanks for the reply. I'll update the list to reflect PATCHED working and AVCHD not working. Most likely if HDMV plays from DVD media then PATCHED should work.


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post #1743 of 4034 Old 08-13-2009, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The APL window patterns were mainly created to measure the auto iris setting on my SXRD. The idea is that the average picture level doesn't change on the APL window patterns, so the iris (or any other dynamic setting) will not adjust during measurements. With a typical window or field the average picture level changes with each pattern, and on a dynamic iris that will cause the light output to change between different patterns. The problem with the iris adjustment is for example the measured gamma is nonsense and the Y measurements for color are not relative to each other. So the main point of the APL window patterns was to stop any dynamic display from adjusting so that relative Y measurements can be taken - primarily for gamma and color.

I've read about floating black levels on some plasmas (Panasonic?), and in such a case the APL windows would stop that sort of behavior for measurements. I haven't looked at how much blacks might change on some plasmas, but odds are that floating blacks will not impact measurements near as much as an adjusting projector iris or a dynamic LCD might. The only other possibly plasma-related use of the APL windows would be if power limiting affects the relative Y measurements for color. Again I haven't looked into this at all either, so I don't know if relative Y for color would vary much between typical color windows and APL color windows, but I'd expect the APL color window measurements to be directly relative to each other and generally in line with what you'll get from a movie scene.



The black clipping pattern has an extremely low average picture level, and the white clipping pattern is extremely high. The APL clipping pattern has an average picture level that is going to be closer to say a typical movie scene. The pattern is mainly included to offer an alternate pattern for setting white and black levels, sort of like how DVE has more than one pluge pattern.

Thanks for the info, I was always wondering what kind of displays those APL patterns were intended for.


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post #1744 of 4034 Old 08-13-2009, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I've read about floating black levels on some plasmas (Panasonic?), and in such a case the APL windows would stop that sort of behavior for measurements. I haven't looked at how much blacks might change on some plasmas, but odds are that floating blacks will not impact measurements near as much as an adjusting projector iris or a dynamic LCD might. The only other possibly plasma-related use of the APL windows would be if power limiting affects the relative Y measurements for color.

um, i have a plasma and i *exclusively* use the APL patterns precisely because i live in fear of power limiting effects on plasmas. and i have measured both regular window patterns and APL window patterns and i do get different results. frankly i get flatter looking gamma curves with the non-APL windows but i keep telling myself i am getting a truer feeling for the repsonse of the display when i use the APL windows. maybe i'm dreaming.
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post #1745 of 4034 Old 08-14-2009, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch437 View Post

i have measured both regular window patterns and APL window patterns and i do get different results.

If you're using a puck or a meter with a small measurement area, a step further would be to compare if the large and small sets of APL windows vary much in regards to relative Y for color measurements. Ideally the large and small APL windows would be within repeatability, but whether or not that would commonly be the case I couldn't say.

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i get flatter looking gamma curves with the non-APL windows but i keep telling myself i am getting a truer feeling for the repsonse of the display when i use the APL windows.

With a typical gamma measurement there are two things changing - the video level (% shown) and the average picture level (APL) of the displayed image. If a display varies brightness depending on APL, which some do, a typical window measurement ends up at least partially relating how the display changes between very dark and very bright video scenes. Generally in most gamma discussions it's never mentioned that some displays may vary light output depending on the APL of the displayed image, and typically the focus of such discussion is more on how you're measuring different video levels.

The APL window patterns eliminate the adjusting APL, so the only variable is the change in the center video level. Effectively the APL windows will measure how the display increases in brightness between black and white for a given image. I might call this "on-screen" gamma, because the APL window measurement is generally in line with what you'll see looking at an individual image. It is possible that a display may vary depending on APL, so the large and small APL windows may give slightly different on-screen gamma measurements.


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post #1746 of 4034 Old 08-16-2009, 10:12 AM
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I was playing around with the AVS Disc today and I noticed that in the patched 1.3a version not only did section A not loop back at the last pattern but four other sections ending with the same A8 "Dynamic and Center" pattern did not loop back to the beginning either. Those were "Adjust Gray" and "Bright and Cont." under ColorHCFR and CalMAN (windows and fields), respectively.

I'm not sure whether the 1.3b fix solves these four other instances and that's why I'm mentioning it. (I didn't feel it was worth burning another DVD at this time for the minor 1.3b fixes.)


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post #1747 of 4034 Old 08-21-2009, 11:23 PM
 
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Since AVSHD709 uses % grey windows, does this mean it's better to use % grey than IRE windows when calibrating greyscale? The reason I ask is I get different results when using one vs the other.
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post #1748 of 4034 Old 08-22-2009, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

Since AVSHD709 uses % grey windows, does this mean it's better to use % grey than IRE windows when calibrating greyscale? The reason I ask is I get different results when using one vs the other.

For the HD standards percentage and IRE match, but I'll take it that you are talking about the IRE labels used with Avia. The Avia IRE labels do not correspond with the percent gray patterns here. For example the 7.5 IRE label is the same as 0%, and the Avia 10 IRE is not the same as 10%. Because the patterns don't match, you have to account for that with your measurement software. For example with ColorHCFR you have to select the "Measures" drop down menu, choose "Parameters", and then check "Grayscale in NTSC IRE Levels" to measure the Avia IRE labeled patterns. When measuring the AVS HD 709 patterns, you do not want "Grayscale in NTSC IRE Levels" checked in ColorHCFR. While percentage labeled patterns do not directly correspond with the Avia IRE labels, if your measurement software accounts for the difference the resulting graphs would generally be expected to look similar.


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post #1749 of 4034 Old 08-23-2009, 03:50 AM
 
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Thank you. That explains a lot.
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post #1750 of 4034 Old 08-24-2009, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

PRIMARY CHANGE:
- H.264 video has been recoded with " --colorprim bt709 --transfer bt709 --colormatrix bt709" in x264 to flag the video. Prior releases were only flagged for Mpeg-2 used in the HD DVD.

Thank you for such a great disc and for maintaining such detailed release notes!

Can you please elaborate on what the significance is for the above change? I am playing the disc on a PS3. Does the above improve the accuracy of any patterns? If I previously calibrated with version 1.2b is there any need to redo this using the latest version?
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post #1751 of 4034 Old 08-24-2009, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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The encoding side was mainly a contribution from hwjohn, but I believe the flags are basically intended to describe the video. The flag change was primarily done to bring the video in line with the original authoring intent. It was more to avoid any possible problems, rather than to necessarily correct any specific known issues. Personally my players measure the same with either video type, and I'm not aware of any examples that measure differently between flagged and unflagged video. The Misc Patterns area of v1.3 contains sections with flagged and unflagged video for comparison if you want to test your electronics. There was a suggestion in this thread that it's possible that not all commercial Blu-rays are flagged, but I personally have not tried to look for flagged and unflagged Blu-rays considering my electronics operate the same with either.


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post #1752 of 4034 Old 08-24-2009, 04:24 PM
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Hi alluringreality,

the AVCHD.iso V1.3, burned with ImgBurn 2.5.0.0, works verry well on the Denon DBP-2010.

Greets from Germany
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post #1753 of 4034 Old 08-24-2009, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I was playing around with the AVS Disc today and I noticed that in the patched 1.3a version not only did section A not loop back at the last pattern but four other sections ending with the same A8 "Dynamic and Center" pattern did not loop back to the beginning either. Those were "Adjust Gray" and "Bright and Cont." under ColorHCFR and CalMAN (windows and fields), respectively.

I'm not sure whether the 1.3b fix solves these four other instances and that's why I'm mentioning it. (I didn't feel it was worth burning another DVD at this time for the minor 1.3b fixes.)

Alluringreality, can you confirm whether all instances of this issue have been resolved in 1.3b?


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post #1754 of 4034 Old 08-24-2009, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Five playlists were changed on the v1.3b HDMV and PATCHED. Without going through the navigation I'm not sure which playlist goes with which title, but I think all the sections now have a chapter right before the out time to loop.


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post #1755 of 4034 Old 08-24-2009, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corello View Post

AVCHD.iso V1.3, burned with ImgBurn 2.5.0.0, works verry well on the Denon DBP-2010.

Thanks for the player feedback.


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post #1756 of 4034 Old 08-25-2009, 07:46 AM
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Hi everyone, I have my Toshiba since July of last year. Right now the settings are the default ones. I read that it's better to calibrate from the movie mode.
I started to calibrate it but in preference mode. Is there a difference? I watch alot of Blu-Ray movies via my PS3 and sports via my HD receiver. My firmware has not been upgraded. Should I upgrade the firmware or not before calibration?
Thanks

btw great site !!!
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post #1757 of 4034 Old 08-27-2009, 01:55 PM
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How do you use this AVC HD tool to adjust gamma ?

What pictures, scenes, images?
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post #1758 of 4034 Old 08-27-2009, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkedda View Post

How do you use this AVC HD tool to adjust gamma?

There are no visual gamma adjustment images on the disc.


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post #1759 of 4034 Old 08-27-2009, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Avia might have one of the spot gamma patterns, but I personally find those hard to interpret and of limited usefulness. If you just want a general idea of what gamma does, the Grayscale Bars or Ramp in the Misc Patterns can be used to see how gamma affects the image. For example a higher gamma will reduce the brightness increase from one bar to the next near black, and a lower gamma will generally make the image come out of black quicker. The Bars pattern is probably the easiest way to quickly observe how brightness increases from one bar to the next between black and white, or the Dynamic and Center pattern can show if your display tends to vary gamma depending on APL. At the very least you should always be able make out all the bars between black and white, including the bar brighter than black and the one darker than white. Grayscale is meant to be approximately perceptually uniform, so generally the step from one bar to the next between black and white should seem about equal. If say the steps near black were hard to tell apart while the ones near white were very clear that might be an example of a situation to lower gamma. Anyway if you need more specific information about gamma there are a couple things you could do:

1 - The easiest way to get an idea what gamma is doing is to take measurements. If you hire a calibrator they can do this for you, or else you'll need some way to measure the display. The X-rite Display LT is an example of a device that works with the free ColorHCFR software and can be used to give an idea what gamma is doing. The links area of the first post will take you to more information about taking measurements.

2 - If you don't have access to a way to measure gamma, the next best thing to do would probably be to see if other owners of your display model have measured their displays. Sometimes display reviews will also list how gamma measured. When I measured my display it generally ended up within the same range as what others had measured on theirs using similar settings, but it's possible different display types might show more variation than my model seems to have.


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post #1760 of 4034 Old 09-02-2009, 12:57 PM
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Just to say thanks for this new release and your continuing work, and to confirm that V1.3b HDMV burnt on a BD-RE in UDF 2.5 (using Nero 7) works fine with a Panasonic BD-50 (latest firmware).
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post #1761 of 4034 Old 09-03-2009, 06:26 AM
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Well, I have tried to use AVSHD, but so far I am unable to get a complete full range (1-235) output from my BD. I ask this because with my BD-55 and FP (Epson TW500), no matter how I try, it seems that the lowest range (1-7?) is always clipped (using AVSHD low level flashing bars pattern). I assumed it was a problem with the player, but I have a friend who owns a BD-35 and a Panasonic plasma, and using the same pattern he is able to get the full range out of the player without touching the default Brigthness in the player.

The strange thing is that when I use the complete 1-235 pattern in the disc (the one with flashing bars that go from below black to wtw), playing with the brightness controls at both the player and the FP I can reach a point where 1-7 don´t seem to be clipped. But I fear I may be really compressing the range? How can I know?
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post #1762 of 4034 Old 09-03-2009, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joaquin Mejia View Post

Well, I have tried to use AVSHD, but so far I am unable to get a complete full range (1-235) output from my BD. I ask this because with my BD-55 and FP (Epson TW500), no matter how I try, it seems that the lowest range (1-7?) is always clipped (using AVSHD low level flashing bars pattern). I assumed it was a problem with the player, but I have a friend who owns a BD-35 and a Panasonic plasma, and using the same pattern he is able to get the full range out of the player without touching the default Brigthness in the player.

Can you switch color spaces in the player? Try RGB vs YCbCr or vice versa.

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The strange thing is that when I use the complete 1-235 pattern in the disc (the one with flashing bars that go from below black to wtw), playing with the brightness controls at both the player and the FP I can reach a point where 1-7 don´t seem to be clipped. But I fear I may be really compressing the range? How can I know?

This very likely compresses the range. If the smooth gradient grayscale bars look ok then it may not matter.

You can calibrate without seeing the lower or upper bars.

-Bill


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post #1763 of 4034 Old 09-03-2009, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joaquin Mejia View Post

I am unable to get a complete full range (1-235) output from my BD.

Strictly speaking this isn't necessarily what is going on. You might be outputting the full range and the display may simply not be able to display it. Like you said, "using the same pattern he is able to get the full range out of the player" so it's not necessarily a given that the player isn't outputting the full range. To test if the source is outputting the full range you could hook the player up to another display that you know is able to display the entire range.

Personally I wouldn't touch the brightness control on the player, especially if I didn't test another display. I've read that some displays will clip the below-black grayscale, but for a video source it doesn't really matter because you're not displaying that range anyway. The only place where being unable to display 1-7 would necessarily be an issue would be if the source was something like a computer where the range was intended to be displayed. Without any more information to go on, I would leave the player controls at their defaults and just adjust brightness at the display so 16 and lower is all the same shade.


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post #1764 of 4034 Old 09-06-2009, 07:34 AM
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Thanks to the author for these discs, just amazing.

But I have some questions:

- I want to calibrate my HTPC. Wich option should I download? I know they are all the same, just wanna know if there's a recommended one.

- Is there a way to "convert" this disc to play it on a standard DVD player?

- Is there a similar disc for 601 standards?

Thanks
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post #1765 of 4034 Old 09-06-2009, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polcius View Post

- Is there a similar disc for 601 standards?

GetGray and TomHuffman. GetGray is closer in intent but if you're calibrating either will do.


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post #1766 of 4034 Old 09-07-2009, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polcius View Post

I want to calibrate my HTPC. Wich option should I download? I know they are all the same, just wanna know if there's a recommended one.

Assuming a player will work with any version, go with the HDMV. If there was just one version offered it would be the HDMV, but the other versions are necessary to address practical concerns with different players. For example many people don't have a way to burn to BD-RE or BD-R, but that might not matter with computer playback if you're using a virtual drive.


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post #1767 of 4034 Old 09-07-2009, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Assuming a player will work with any version, go with the HDMV. If there was just one version offered it would be the HDMV, but the other versions are necessary to address practical concerns with different players. For example many people don't have a way to burn to BD-RE or BD-R, but that might not matter with computer playback if you're using a virtual drive.

Ok, thank you
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post #1768 of 4034 Old 09-07-2009, 05:56 PM
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Not sure if this is the right place to ask, and I'm not sure if I even know what I'm talking about, but...

Well, I plan to use this with my Xbox 360 to calibrate. What I'm wondering is how I would calibrate my set when games are native RGB and videos are YCbCr (I'm pretty sure this is correct, correct me if I'm wrong please). How should I approach this?
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post #1769 of 4034 Old 09-08-2009, 02:21 AM
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Hi

I am new to this forum, but has been a AV-enthusiast for years, and have also lurked here on several occations.

Recently I invested in a Xrite Eye One probe, and using your disc and HCFR, I have accomplished great greyscale calibration.

During this process, I have discovered something that may be a LCD panel misalignment, aka convergence error. But according to expert sources, it may be difficult to differ between panel convergence error and chromatic aberration in a projector lens using white on black patterns.

These patterns may be better for that purpose:
http://www.pbase.com/jackcnd/convergence

Some projectors (like modern SXRD-displays from Sony) also allows user adjustment of panel convergence, so including such patterns would be a nice add on for the calibration disc for users without HDMI on their computers.

Thank you for your attention and for the great work already put down in creating the AVS HD 709 calibration disc.
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post #1770 of 4034 Old 09-08-2009, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by random123 View Post

How should I approach this?

The quick answer is that I would just use a video pattern. There is a similar reply at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post17115888


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