AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 66 - AVS Forum
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post #1951 of 4082 Old 01-27-2010, 10:49 AM
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Which version do I use to run through a PC...either via loading it in a virtual dvd or on a pc dvd-rom, both using powerdvd9. I downloaded the patched version but when I load it through powerdvd the dvd runs but all I get is blank squares where there should be task buttons it seems.
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post #1952 of 4082 Old 02-03-2010, 03:32 PM
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Last night and today in the morning,finally, i'd check
my Panasonic TC-P50G15 with the colorimeter, the HCFR software,test patterns...and...
I am not sure how to correct the color problem or
how to adjust the primary color accuracy in the SM
Please, any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Eugene

Custom:Warm
Rcut: 81
Gcut:80
Bcut:81
Rdrv: FD
Gdrv: FC
Bdrv: A3
ACut: 81
ADrv: FC
-------------o0o---------
my Panasonic G15 Custom readings are now a bit better...
i reduced the Reds a few clicks, GrayScale at 100% are now: x_0.315 y_0.329
DE readings under 3,but the Gamma are way too LOW (184)
I have a green color point that is well outside the color triangle..(CIE Diagram)
My calibration are far from perfect so far I'm using the Spyder3 colorimeter,
HCFR,DVE HD Basics and Spyder3 software for adjust the Display Menu:

ConT: 69
Brig: 75
Color: 48
Tint: -6
Sharp: 30
Temp: Warm2
Pict. Mode : Custom

Serv. Menu

Orig/ Off /Final

RC: 80/0/80
GC: 80/0/80
BC: 80/+1/81
RD: EB/+2/ED
GD: FC/-8/F4
BD: 91/+6/97
AllCut: 81 (80 before)
AllDrv: F4 (FC before)
everything OFF
Black Level: Ligh

 

todofc.zip 0.939453125k . file

 

Colormeasure5.zip 0.9990234375k . file
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post #1953 of 4082 Old 02-03-2010, 05:28 PM
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I have a question about the White Clipping Pattern. I calibrated my Samsung LCD TV via my PS3 using the AVSHD disc and set video output format to YCC with super-white off. When I turn on super white, the white background in the pattern gets brighter and shifts in color quite noticeably while the flashing bars turn from neutral gray to a very obvious pink. When doing the same with the 10% grayscale windows or full fields, the 100% pattern stays neutral white regardless of super-white being on or off, while the 109% (254) pattern does the exact same thing described above with the white background of the White Clipping Pattern. So, is the background of the White Clipping Pattern 100% (235) or actually 109% (254)? Why do the bars from 230-234 look neutral gray with super-white off and then turn pink with super-white on? My contrast is maxed out at 100 from the default 95 and so there's likely a color shift above white, but 100% measures very close to D65 (CIELUV dE of 1.3). I don't see why the 230-234 looks right with super-white off but plain wrong with it on. Perhaps the background is not actually white (100% or 235) with super white on and so the bars from 230-234 just look pink relative to that background.
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post #1954 of 4082 Old 02-04-2010, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ledesma53 View Post

Last night and today in the morning,finally, i'd check
my Panasonic TC-P50G15 with the colorimeter, the HCFR software,test patterns...and...
I am not sure how to correct the color problem or
how to adjust the primary color accuracy in the SM
Please, any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Eugene

Custom:Warm
Rcut: 81
Gcut:80
Bcut:81
Rdrv: FD
Gdrv: FC
Bdrv: A3
ACut: 81
ADrv: FC

I believe the Panasonics you have no control over color. SM or user menu is the same. You will have to use an external video processor that has a CMS to correct it.
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post #1955 of 4082 Old 02-05-2010, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ledesma53 View Post

Last night and today in the morning,finally, i'd check
my Panasonic TC-P50G15 with the colorimeter, the HCFR software,test patterns...and...
I am not sure how to correct the color problem or
how to adjust the primary color accuracy in the SM
Please, any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Eugene

Custom:Warm
Rcut: 81
Gcut:80
Bcut:81
Rdrv: FD
Gdrv: FC
Bdrv: A3
ACut: 81
ADrv: FC

About the only thing you can do is even out the error in the delta E's of the secondaries by using the tint control. I had rather good luck with my G15 by employing that strategy.
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post #1956 of 4082 Old 02-05-2010, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Smith View Post
About the only thing you can do is even out the error in the delta E's of the secondaries by using the tint control. I had rather good luck with my G15 by employing that strategy.
Thank you Richard...
My DE readings are under 3 now ,but the Gamma are way too LOW (184)
and i have a green color point that is well outside the color triangle..(CIE Diagram) and 'i don't know how to fixed'
my regards,

 

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post #1957 of 4082 Old 02-05-2010, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ledesma53 View Post

...
My DE readings are under 3 now ,but the Gamma are way too LOW (184)
and i have a green color point that is well outside the color triangle ...

I'd suggest checking other Panasonic threads or starting a new one. You're more likely to get help that way.

In any case when I had a PZ85 it (like all Panasonics) had serious problems if you didn't start with the right settings (Cinema/Warm I think). Even then I found gamma to be intractable. A video processor was the only way to deal with it.
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post #1958 of 4082 Old 02-05-2010, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

I'd suggest checking other Panasonic threads or starting a new one. You're more likely to get help that way.

In any case when I had a PZ85 it (like all Panasonics) had serious problems if you didn't start with the right settings (Cinema/Warm I think). Even then I found gamma to be intractable. A video processor was the only way to deal with it.

Thank you Bodosom...I'd posted in the Color HCFR Discussion Forum and the Official G12 too, this is the first time i am crossing the line to the Service Menu...the AVS forum are really amazing, i'm learning something from here every day..
Many Thanks and regards,
Eugene
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post #1959 of 4082 Old 02-05-2010, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ledesma53 View Post

Thank you Bodosom...I'd posted in the Color HCFR Discussion Forum and the Official G12 too, this is the first time i am crossing the line to the Service Menu...the AVS forum are really amazing, i'm learning something from here every day..
Many Thanks and regards,
Eugene

Eugene,

I believe bodosom is right. The last Panny I had was tracking closer to gamma 2.1. I believe you have to put it into Cinema mode. Also you might need to either sacrifice black (ie, crush blacks) a little to get a better gamma tracking.

On the color, as I said, there is no way to correct the color points. However, I do remember magenta being slightly better. Is this in the THX mode?
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post #1960 of 4082 Old 02-05-2010, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venkatesh_m View Post

Eugene,

I believe bodosom is right. The last Panny I had was tracking closer to gamma 2.1. I believe you have to put it into Cinema mode. Also you might need to either sacrifice black (ie, crush blacks) a little to get a better gamma tracking.

On the color, as I said, there is no way to correct the color points. However, I do remember magenta being slightly better. Is this in the THX mode?

thanks vankatesh_m. This setup is for CUSTOM mode
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post #1961 of 4082 Old 02-06-2010, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Nemesis View Post

Which version do I use to run through a PC...either via loading it in a virtual dvd or on a pc dvd-rom, both using powerdvd9. I downloaded the patched version but when I load it through powerdvd the dvd runs but all I get is blank squares where there should be task buttons it seems.

Cyberlink PowerDVD is listed in the first post under Blu-ray players. It will play the AVCHD from disk. If you playback .iso files with a program like Virtual CloneDrive the Patched version will work, but some virtual disk programs may require the .iso to go over DL DVD size to recognize the image as Blu-ray.
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post #1962 of 4082 Old 02-06-2010, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

So, is the background of the White Clipping Pattern 100% (235) or actually 109% (254)?

The background is 254. If I decide to release a new version the APL pattern will be switched to 235. My current impression is that there's limited, if any, above-white material on the majority of commercial video. Generally my thought is to calibrate to white.

Quote:


Why do the bars from 230-234 look neutral gray with super-white off and then turn pink with super-white on?

Depending on the setting either 254 or 235 is likely sent, so probably the display has a color-shift for above-white.

Quote:


I don't see why the 230-234 looks right with super-white off but plain wrong with it on.

Anything above 235 probably goes to 235 with super-white off.
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post #1963 of 4082 Old 02-06-2010, 11:28 AM
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alluringreality -- Some time ago I read that a significant number of BD discs (movies) are mastered with white levels that go above 235 (= video white) = overshoot. Unfortunately, I do not have a reference to those AVS threads.

However, since video white is defined as Digital 235, that would be correct for calibration of white levels. The encoded overshoot signals do not approach 254. For purposes of calibration checking, the grayscale step/ramp pattern needs to go from about Digital 1 up to about Digital 254.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #1964 of 4082 Old 02-06-2010, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

alluringreality -- Some time ago I read that a significant number of BD discs (movies) are mastered with white levels that go above 235 (= video white) = overshoot. Unfortunately, I do not have a reference to those AVS threads.

However, since video white is defined as Digital 235, that would be correct for calibration of white levels. The encoded overshoot signals do not approach 254. For purposes of calibration checking, the grayscale step/ramp pattern needs to go from about Digital 1 up to about Digital 254.

I find it better to leave super white off, since my calibration is from 20% to 100% and ColorHCFR never asks for a 109% reading. I'd rather clip above white info than have it tinted pink or some other color. While lowering contrast reduces this tinting, I'm sure there always be some since ColorHCFR does not include 109% in the grayscale measurements. The only way to calibrate it would be to take continuous reads.
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post #1965 of 4082 Old 02-06-2010, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

Some time ago I read that a significant number of BD discs (movies) are mastered with white levels that go above 235 (= video white) = overshoot. Unfortunately, I do not have a reference to those AVS threads.

This is an area of considerable contention. Searching for posts by Stacey Spears should find some.
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post #1966 of 4082 Old 02-06-2010, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

When I turn on super white, the white background in the pattern gets brighter and shifts in color quite noticeably while the flashing bars turn from neutral gray to a very obvious pink.

This most likely means that the display is compressing/clipping red with the current contrast setting. I have a number of Samsung LCD HDTVs and they all do this if I crank the contrast up above a certain point. The reason why the 230-234 bars appear pink is that there is a lack of red in the 254 encoded background thus it brings out the red in the lower encoded bars thus making them appear pinkish. When you switch off Super-White, the PS3 is clipping anything above 235 thus you should not be able to see any flashing bars above 235 and they should all blend into the background and the lack of red at the highest end is hidden from you.

Whether or not you want to preserve above white information and/or avoid clipping/compressing of red/green/blue channels above 235 is really a personal preference decision. For me, I've tried to keep contrast below the point I see color compressing/clipping beginning to occur even if it's above 235. For most of my Samsungs that is usually around a contrast setting of 95.

hope this helps,


--tom
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post #1967 of 4082 Old 02-06-2010, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

This is an area of considerable contention. Searching for posts by Stacey Spears should find some.

I certainly recognize that fact that concerning video signals above Digital 235 on BD discs. I also do not want to attribute any references to AVS member statements, without their actual posts in hand.

I did as you suggested, and came up with, at least, two threads discussing the issue. The discussion centers around an exchange between Stacy Spears, Don Munsil, Dave Blackburn and Chris Wiggles. What I got out of that exchange is that even if the Luma value is limited to 235, the Rec. 709 specification allows the individual RGB (chroma) components to go as high as 240 (whether, or not, the display is capable of displaying those values). The discussions start with the following posts: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...6&postcount=23 and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=169.

I think we can leave any further discussion of this issue to those two threads (and any others that may be applicable). This issue is beyond the scope of this thread, IMHO.

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post #1968 of 4082 Old 02-06-2010, 03:59 PM
 
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I did a search for full field but did not come up with answer, so here we go:

*) I am ordering a Chroma 5 with Calman, and have a Regza 670u local dimming backlit LED tv. By all accounts, if you plan to use local dimming you can calibrate with it off, and then turn it on, unless it messes with the picture. Other option is to calibrate with full field patterns. Another user, with the same tv and a chroma 5, found that it does screw with the settings if you set greyscale with local dimming off, then turn it back on.

*) Does the AVS disc have the proper full field patterns I need for Calman?

*) I have a Pioneer BDP320, which appears to work with two different files, and a DVD burner. If I burn the file on NON HD media (dvd,not blu-ray disc), will the fields and slides be accurate? Only reason I ask is that I remember the older Aria and DVE dvd's do not work as well on todays HDTV's, but I assume this AVS file is for HDTV's.

Thanks!
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post #1969 of 4082 Old 02-06-2010, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

I did a search for full field but did not come up with answer, so here we go ...

Yes -- see page 2 in the manual.
Yes.
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post #1970 of 4082 Old 02-06-2010, 04:25 PM
 
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Thanks!
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post #1971 of 4082 Old 02-10-2010, 12:01 AM
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I'm using a Samsung LCD TV connected to my PS3 using HDMI cables. For the Black/White Clipping Pattern tests, I'm unable to see any flashing below bars 17 and 233 even when I turned both brightness and contrast to their maximun and minimum values respectively.

Any ideas why those bars can't be seen?
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post #1972 of 4082 Old 02-10-2010, 06:20 AM
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Make sure the PS3 is set to sup
Y Cb Cr
RGB limited
Super white on
Upconverion normal
all noise reduction on "0"

-Greg
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post #1973 of 4082 Old 02-10-2010, 04:32 PM
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My PS3 has those settings too. But my problem is no flashing bars above 234 in the contrast pattern. Anything above 234 is clipping or all the same color and shade with no difference between them. Setting the contrast to max or minimum doesn't make any difference because only 230 - 234 is still flashing. How do I set the contrast?
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post #1974 of 4082 Old 02-10-2010, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumstuf View Post

My PS3 has those settings too. But my problem is no flashing bars above 234 in the contrast pattern. Anything above 234 is clipping or all the same color and shade with no difference between them. Setting the contrast to max or minimum doesn't make any difference because only 230 - 234 is still flashing. How do I set the contrast?

If your PS3 output is going through a receiver or other HDMI switching device before the tv then that could be causing the clipping. In the case where above white is clipped no matter where contrast is set, you should set contrast to a value that doesn't cause noticeable color shifting at the high end of the grayscale (look at a grayscale ramp pattern) and doesn't cause eye fatigue.

hope this helps,


--tom
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post #1975 of 4082 Old 02-10-2010, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Make sure the PS3 is set to sup
Y Cb Cr
RGB limited
Super white on
Upconverion normal
all noise reduction on "0"

Yeah, that's what my settings are with the exception that my RGB is set to full. Isn't full better? And my TV has an option called Dynamic Contrast. It looks a lot better when turned on but I heard it's better to turn it off so I tried calibrating my TV with it off and I still can't get it to look as good.
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post #1976 of 4082 Old 02-11-2010, 04:30 AM
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Hello guys,

I've tested this disc and it's much better than DVE and some customized patterns found over the internet.

Now, my display is calibrated correctly for whites (contrast) and blacks (brightness). Also, tweaked my sharpness control (cranked up a bit from 0 to 20 since i thought its blurry sometimes) and color/hue adjustments using a blue filter.

Nice job, guys!

Cherrs from Brazil
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post #1977 of 4082 Old 02-11-2010, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamercross View Post

Isn't full better?

The PS3 FAQ has guidance.
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post #1978 of 4082 Old 02-11-2010, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumstuf View Post

My PS3 has those settings too. But my problem is no flashing bars above 234 in the contrast pattern. Anything above 234 is clipping or all the same color and shade with no difference between them. Setting the contrast to max or minimum doesn't make any difference because only 230 - 234 is still flashing. How do I set the contrast?

I think Tom is correct. It is likely getting clipped at a receiver before it gets to the TV. A buddy of mine has that problem with his Yamaha 863. Do you get the same result if connected directly into the TV? It might be the blu-ray player that is clipping too.

-Greg
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post #1979 of 4082 Old 02-11-2010, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have enough experience with Samsung TVs to comment much, but I know in some player testing that I couldn't get a couple Samsungs to display the entire video range. What was odd was that the TV's overlay would show that above white was certainly reaching the display, but yet for normal viewing the signal just went between black and white. I can't say if there's a setting that would have allowed the Samsung to display the entire range, but after hooking the PS3 directly to the display with the above settings it could still be the TV that is clipping the signal. If the TV can only display video black to white, you certainly don't want to send it an RGB full signal.
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post #1980 of 4082 Old 02-12-2010, 08:43 AM
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My PS3 is hooked up to my Samsung tv by HDMI. So it is indeed clipping, I later used the S&M blu-ray to configure contrast.
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