AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 75 - AVS Forum
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post #2221 of 3956 Old 08-20-2010, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Red color and red tint would probably correspond with the test if you have that much control. Current mainstream TVs usually don't have that option to split colors and they just come with one color and tint control, so I cannot really anticipate any items that might arise from adjustment. The two TVs that I've spent much time with that had these sort of options had different items to consider when making changes. Basically where I'm going here is that I would personally be more comfortable making these sorts of changes if there was a meter to check any other changes that might happen, or else I'd have to fall back on just watching video material to check what subjective changes happened with adjustment.

Thanks for the reply. I am using LGLH7000(PAL territory)TV, that TV has all these options.I am calibrating with PS3 input via USB. Will try some video material and report.
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post #2222 of 3956 Old 08-20-2010, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggav View Post

sendspace

I'd prefer to have access to the files, so rapidshare isn't really a consideration "Files uploaded by free users can only be downloaded 10 times"

I've been using Dropbox recently. Here is a test file.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10355052/AVCHD-v1_3.7z
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post #2223 of 3956 Old 08-22-2010, 09:17 AM
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I have an older Optoma 720p dlp projector. When I use the contrast test pattern, I really have to increase it to get the flashing bars to 234 and below only. It doesn't take much decreasing to get all of the higher numbered bars to flash. Which the manual seems to indicate is ok.my question is,how low on contrast do I go?they are most defined with contrast at it's lowest setting.this does not seem where I want. Should I keep it at 234 and below?
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post #2224 of 3956 Old 08-22-2010, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggav View Post

any chance this great the AVS HD 709 can be uploaded to anywhere less lame them sendspace ?

There are alternatives. E.g. Spectracal although they persist in using V1.2.
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post #2225 of 3956 Old 08-22-2010, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Spectracal uses it displaying photos as a pattern generator.

Although I appreciate what they're trying to do (I have a WDTV Live from them) this is a terrible idea. Reasonable source devices switch to RGB-IT when displaying photographic images since that's the colorspace for digital cameras. Sometimes this isn't (much) of a problem but it certainly can be which makes it a niche solution. If only a you could get a BDP-83 the size of a WDTV. Running the AVS patterns off a USB drive into an -83 is *much* faster than the (rough) equivalent using the WDTV.
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post #2226 of 3956 Old 08-23-2010, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gee View Post

I have an older Optoma 720p dlp projector. When I use the contrast test pattern, I really have to increase it to get the flashing bars to 234 and below only. It doesn't take much decreasing to get all of the higher numbered bars to flash. Which the manual seems to indicate is ok.my question is,how low on contrast do I go?they are most defined with contrast at it's lowest setting.this does not seem where I want. Should I keep it at 234 and below?

Try the "highest" contrast ratio first. If that does not make your eyes "fatigue", and you have no colorization issue, you are fine with that setting. Sometimes, when you are at a high contrast ratio, some of the color cannot catch up and you have colorization...

If you have a meter, you probably also want to check and see if it is "too bright". For Front Projector, you are looking at 12-18, depending on if you got ambient light. For me, 14 seems pretty good. The FL measurement is more of a double check, but the main point is eye-fatigue and colorization factor.
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post #2227 of 3956 Old 08-24-2010, 05:34 PM
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fight4yu -- The words "colorization factor" is an inappropriate term. The effect is that, as the contrast is turned up, one of the colors will run up to its maximum output limit (usually it is the Red output) before the other two colors do. This results in a discoloration of the gray-scale at the high (white) end (and it will no longer be perfect shades of black and white). There should be absolutely no tinting of the gray-scale ramps (black to white). If there is tinting, the Contrast control is set too high.

Dr.Gee -- From your description, it almost sounds like you are using the Contrast control (used to set the White level) backwards (I don't think you did though). You also have to remember that some displays will clip (= not display) any video above 235. Some displays will not let you adjust the Contrast in accordance with the calibration software instructions. In either case, you have to set the Contrast control to a level that is comfortable to watch, as long as the entire video gray-scale, 16 to 235 range, is output.

You also have to remember that the Brightness control sets the Black level (and that should really be set first). Those two controls interact with each other, and adjusting one will effect the other. So you have to go back and forth between those two controls to get the correct settings (sometimes 3 to 6 times, or more). Those two controls set the entire gray-scale display range, and set the maximum contrast ratio that your display can produce. Don't obsess over one control, at the expense of the other.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #2228 of 3956 Old 08-25-2010, 08:14 AM
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The AVS HD 709 disc is great! For someone doing a basic calibration, it is very thorough. With the disc I was able to determine a few things I simply could not with the DVE blu ray disc..

After using the DVE blu ray (and then running the AVS disc) I determined...

My brightness was too low when using dve, fixed it with avs

My color setting was three ticks too high, the blinking smpte color bar pattern really helps the human eye focus in on the correct color and tint setting (with the blue filter).
Having the "blinking" effect resulted in me setting my color a few ticks lower then I had with the DVE disc, which made skin tones appear more realistic.

Finally, I was able to see that I was in fact clipping the color green with my contrast setting. A few ticks lower helped me correct this.


Thanks for providing such a robust calibration disc! Also, it appears the show HD Nation has been running a tutorial on how to correctly use the disc, if anyone needs a run through. It is done in three parts, over three recent episodes.
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post #2229 of 3956 Old 08-25-2010, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I didn't realize that the show had more than just the first segment. I added links on the first post.
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post #2230 of 3956 Old 08-26-2010, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

fight4yu -- The words "colorization factor" is an inappropriate term. The effect is that, as the contrast is turned up, one of the colors will run up to its maximum output limit (usually it is the Red output) before the other two colors do. This results in a discoloration of the gray-scale at the high (white) end (and it will no longer be perfect shades of black and white). There should be absolutely no tinting of the gray-scale ramps (black to white). If there is tinting, the Contrast control is set too high.

Dr.Gee -- From your description, it almost sounds like you are using the Contrast control (used to set the White level) backwards (I don't think you did though). You also have to remember that some displays will clip (= not display) any video above 235. Some displays will not let you adjust the Contrast in accordance with the calibration software instructions. In either case, you have to set the Contrast control to a level that is comfortable to watch, as long as the entire video gray-scale, 16 to 235 range, is output.

You also have to remember that the Brightness control sets the Black level (and that should really be set first). Those two controls interact with each other, and adjusting one will effect the other. So you have to go back and forth between those two controls to get the correct settings (sometimes 3 to 6 times, or more). Those two controls set the entire gray-scale display range, and set the maximum contrast ratio that your display can produce. Don't obsess over one control, at the expense of the other.

Thanks CT for my correction. I am too lazy to explain Yes, white should be pure white, and not show any "color".
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post #2231 of 3956 Old 08-29-2010, 05:26 AM
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Hi!
In hope, here is one of the AVS HD Disk developers:
CalMAN V4 now starts a Grayscale reading with 100%, then 0%, 10% ... 90%.
So working with V4 now is a little bit troublesome, because first you have to load a 100% white Pattern, then you have to go back to the Disk Menue for starting the 10% Grayscale (0% ... ).
I would like to know, if an adaption of the AVS HD Testpattern disk is intended, to start the Grayscale Patterns with a 100% Pattern?

_________
Regards,
Harry
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post #2232 of 3956 Old 08-29-2010, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harry* View Post

CalMAN V4 now starts a Grayscale reading with 100%

Here is a link that seems to be realated http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18750040

The last few days I've been looking into possible considerations for a new version. If users want the CalMAN patterns changed it could probably be done, but version 3 users would then have to always skip the first chapter. Currently I'm thinking I might make the CalMAN patterns the same 3 minutes as the rest of the disc, because I never figured out how the option worked that the 30 second patterns were intended for. I thought it was for an autosense feature, but the program kept reporting a timeout before the 30 second change with what I tried. For the way I used CalMAN it seemed easiest to just use manual chapter skips and I stopped using CalMAN because the 30 second chapters were a hassle.
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post #2233 of 3956 Old 08-29-2010, 09:30 AM
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Oh, nice to see, "Pattern autosense" is working in V4!

I didn't check'd this till now, because I've had problems in V3 with.
OK, using this option CalMAN is starting at 0%.

But I often have disabled the autosense option, so I would really appreciate it, If you could make a further AVS HD revision, for ex. 1.3c or so.
I agree, adding only a 100% Pattern at the start of the Grayscale and skipping this if no need for should be the best idea.

However: Great job. Thank you for this good Tool anyway!

_________
Regards,
Harry
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post #2234 of 3956 Old 08-30-2010, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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AVCHD TEST
If your player will play the current AVCHD, would you please test one of these downloads? If you test it, all you need to do is to list the model of your player and say if it works or not. Currently the test disc has only been tried on PowerDVD and the BDP-S1, and I'd like to get an idea if there are any issues with the authoring before planning on using this for a new release.

AVCHD-Test.exe

AVCHD-Test.7z

Note: Although the menu shows Misc Patterns after E, those sections have been removed from the test disc because they are not compatible with AVCHD.


CALMAN USERS
If you have an opinion if AVS HD 709 should begin with 100% white to support v4 of CalMAN, please reply with your opinion. If you have an opinion on the length of CalMAN chapters (30 seconds or three minutes), again please reply. Otherwise I'll just go with whatever I choose, and I do not have v4 of CalMAN and don't get the 30 second chapters.

Edit: On second thought it may be possible to do the CalMAN items with menus.
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post #2235 of 3956 Old 08-30-2010, 03:26 PM
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Samsung BD-P2500.

Test disk works fine.

Larry
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post #2236 of 3956 Old 08-31-2010, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

AVCHD TEST

Works with the OPPO BDP-80 and BDP-83.

-Bill
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post #2237 of 3956 Old 09-03-2010, 07:30 PM
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Sony BDP-S760 (BDP-S1000ES in the US)
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post #2238 of 3956 Old 09-03-2010, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

AVCHD TEST
If your player will play the current AVCHD, would you please test one of these downloads? If you test it, all you need to do is to list the model of your player and say if it works or not. Currently the test disc has only been tried on PowerDVD and the BDP-S1, and I'd like to get an idea if there are any issues with the authoring before planning on using this for a new release.

AVCHD-Test.exe

AVCHD-Test.7z

Note: Although the menu shows Misc Patterns after E, those sections have been removed from the test disc because they are not compatible with AVCHD.


CALMAN USERS
If you have an opinion if AVS HD 709 should begin with 100% white to support v4 of CalMAN, please reply with your opinion. If you have an opinion on the length of CalMAN chapters (30 seconds or three minutes), again please reply. Otherwise I'll just go with whatever I choose, and I do not have v4 of CalMAN and don't get the 30 second chapters.

Edit: On second thought it may be possible to do the CalMAN items with menus.

You deffinetly can set up a button to do single reads that progress from 0-100, you could also set auto advance on, or do pattern auto-sense.

We switched it to read 100 first so that the next readings would be meaningful as they were read and not forced to rescale after the the last 100% reading.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
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post #2239 of 3956 Old 09-03-2010, 09:03 PM
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I d like the 100% first and where it is now. alos if you could add a complete calibration run flow where it runs greyscale and gamut all in one section. But still keep separate greyscale and gamut.

Athanasios
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post #2240 of 3956 Old 09-05-2010, 04:22 AM
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After trying various Calibration DVDs and Patterns as well as the AVS HD 709, alot of them end up giving me close to the same results. The Spears and Munsil Blu-ray DVD results were different! The end result was that my calibration results were better after using the S&M DVD, rather than the Rest. Has anyone else found this?
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post #2241 of 3956 Old 09-05-2010, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

After trying various Calibration DVDs and Patterns as well as the AVS HD 709, alot of them end up giving me close to the same results. The Spears and Munsil Blu-ray DVD results were different! The end result was that my calibration results were better after using the S&M DVD, rather than the Rest. Has anyone else found this?

Are you using full field patterns or windows? If you're using full field, I have no idea why any would be different. For windows, different window sizes/shapes, APL windows, etc could cause some differences.
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post #2242 of 3956 Old 09-05-2010, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

The Spears and Munsil Blu-ray DVD results were different! The end result was that my calibration results were better after using the S&M DVD, rather than the Rest.

Different in what way? I mean, how did your settings change? I found http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post19119649 in your posting history, but it doesn't give any details for what was different in "Brightness, Contrast, Colour and Tint."
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post #2243 of 3956 Old 09-05-2010, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the playback replies. At this time the plan is to author the AVCHD from the Blu-ray (HDMV), similar to what we tried with v1.2 and later retracted in the v1.3 revision. Due to the growing number of different players, we will simply have to rely on the compatibility reports from multiAVCHD and correct any playback issues after release. At this time I still haven't decided what to do with CalMAN patterns, so that's the next major planning issue to get around. The Colormunki looks sort of interesting, so I've sent a PM regarding the reason CalMAN left their downloads at the v1.2 release.
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post #2244 of 3956 Old 09-05-2010, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You deffinetly can set up a button to do single reads that progress from 0-100, you could also set auto advance on, or do pattern auto-sense.

Thanks for the reply. Using the v4 trial it looks like the autoadvance setting in misc probably works like I would generally want to take manual readings. As far as I can tell the autoadvance must begin at the lowest measurement. If that's the case, and there isn't an option to switch the default first item, I'll probably just leave the series for low to high.

Maybe there's a reason for it, but the "select gamma" for ISF Basic has the bar at the bottom that shows which pattern to measure and the ISF Advanced doesn't.
EDIT: After messing with the program some more I see that it could be added
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post #2245 of 3956 Old 09-05-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Different in what way? I mean, how did your settings change? I found http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post19119649 in your posting history, but it doesn't give any details for what was different in "Brightness, Contrast, Colour and Tint."

Lets take the Colour - S&M to match the requirements - Set at 57 - The others - 47-50
Contrast - S&M to match requirements - 78 - The others - 87-92
Brightness - S&M to match requirements - (Can't quite remember - fill in later)
Tint - Both the same

The iScan Duo calibration has finally rid me of the Yellow Tinge I've been trying to get rid of for the last year. This was Calibrating Expert 2, originally set to the LG THX settings. Going to see when I do a complete Standard Calibration on the LG, and get the Yellow Tinge, if the iScan Duo finalizing calibration will still rid the Yellow Tinge.

Standard Calibration, I just use the Full Screen Inner Greyscale Patterns provided by LG. IScan Duo, use the Small Window Patterns provided by the Combination Calman 4, iScan Duo and Chroma5 Profiled to the i1Pro.
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post #2246 of 3956 Old 09-05-2010, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Lets take the Colour - S&M to match the requirements - Set at 57 - The others - 47-50

I don't remember looking into what they do for color, but what does the i1Pro give for color? CalMAN should indicate it in some way, or Y values on a color run would work.

Quote:


Contrast - S&M to match requirements - 78 - The others - 87-92

I think I have read most of their descriptions for contrast. What are the patterns or tests that are suggesting to turn down contrast. Aside from maybe color steps or a ramp, I can't quickly think of much that would be better observed with a pattern than the i1pro for setting contrast.
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post #2247 of 3956 Old 09-05-2010, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Standard Calibration, I just use the Full Screen Inner Greyscale Patterns provided by LG. IScan Duo, use the Small Window Patterns provided by the Combination Calman 4, iScan Duo and Chroma5 Profiled to the i1Pro.

I would never trust the inner patterns. I haven't tested them on the LG, but on other displays when I have tried them they usually don't perfectly agree with external sources. That might be why the standard calibration still has the yellow tinge.
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post #2248 of 3956 Old 09-05-2010, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

After trying various Calibration DVDs and Patterns as well as the AVS HD 709, alot of them end up giving me close to the same results. The Spears and Munsil Blu-ray DVD results were different!

S&M isn't a calibration disc, it's a "High Definition Benchmark" intended to be used for visual assessment and adjustment. Given that, it's not surprising that a typical calibration workflow using a pattern source (e.g. AVS HD, Tom Huffman's disc, GetGray, DVE etc.) would yield different results in the small area of overlap (strictly speaking only adjusting color lightness). At least when everything is used correctly that should be the case.
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post #2249 of 3956 Old 09-06-2010, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

I d like the 100% first and where it is now.

After playing with the CalMAN v4 trial some more, here are my current thoughts. Generally they're in line with the quote:

1 - Each section will begin with white, because that seems to be the CalMAN v4 default expectation. White will also be in the series, so it would have to be skipped for the super white options. I think it's odd to have 100% color with three white measurements, but for consistency that would be the layout.

2 - Popup and left may return to chapter 1 to again begin taking a default measurement run. For consistency, this will be the default behavior for the entire disc.

3 - Popup and right may return to chapter 2 to begin taking a measurement run with Auto Advance or Autosense. This behavior will only apply to the CalMAN section.

4 - I'm still kicking around ideas for how to have an option for video to begin at chapter 2 for people using Auto Advance or Autosense. Personally I would probably use QuickView with Auto Advance and the > button, so it's likely the video opening to white would get on my nerves like the 30 second chapters did. It wouldn't take up much disk space, but it could turn into a lot of time to author and verify.

5 - Color Temp section may be changed to 30-80-100 to support 2 and 3 step options

6 - 0% may be removed from 20% Gray to match 5 step option.
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post #2250 of 3956 Old 09-06-2010, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harry* View Post

"Pattern autosense" is working in V4!
OK, using this option CalMAN is starting at 0%.

Auto Advance and the > button also would seem to work with the current layout, but the Pre-Cal and Post-Cal Captures only appear to have the (>) button.
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