AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 78 - AVS Forum
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post #2311 of 4030 Old 10-13-2010, 09:24 AM
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Thanks.

Probably explains a lot. With the DVE SD DVD. I would set the Gamma, on the plasma display for a reading of around 2.35. However, I managed a ruler flat gamma from 0ire to 100ire when the brightness and contrast were set with the black level test. However, with the AVS disc I find I can only get ruler flat between 10ire-90ire. Not a big issue, I hear you say. The only way I can get a ruler flat gamma is to clip the blacks to around 21-22 AVS and increase the contrast, which also is then slightly clipped.

This may be a characteristic of the Blu-ray player itself, rather than the disc?
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post #2312 of 4030 Old 10-13-2010, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Like previously noted, the grayscale will change on the new release and it is intended to match with the DVE Blu-ray. This change will slightly alter the reported gamma for 50% and below. Personally I consider the difference for the one level change insignificant. I think on my display it changed the second decimal point for gamma, so I doubt the disc change will be noticed by most people.

My players all output very similar levels, so my display has far more impact on reported gamma than the players. For example my display has an adjusting iris that can be affected by the pattern chosen, unless shut off for gamma measurements. Generally lowering brightness will tend to increase gamma. Clipping near blacks would probably measure with a higher low-end gamma than not clipping near blacks. Beyond that I can't think of much to comment on how your electronics likely perform. Since I'm using digital connections and all my players measure similarly I tend to discount any impact of the player, but I suppose it's possible.
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post #2313 of 4030 Old 10-14-2010, 09:13 AM
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Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for making this available.
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post #2314 of 4030 Old 10-14-2010, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apaste View Post

Will do. When I calibrate my WD-65738 playing the MP4 codec through my XBox 360, in the ColorHCFR do I set it to Rec 709 or Rec 601?

Any one care to answer this question for me?
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post #2315 of 4030 Old 10-14-2010, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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It's a simple question, but to really address it could take some time. My personal opinion is that the only shortcoming with ColorHCFR has to do with how it deals with color. Ideally you would calibrate xyY for colors to the same reference that is used in video mastering, but when I tried a search of the calibration forum I didn't quickly find the threads discussing that angle. Another possible way to address the question would depend on the controls your display offers, and I'm not familiar with the display. My own display generally only offers color and tint so I like to use a custom gamut from the "color corrector" tab from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ht=spreadsheet After all this, my best answer is that the two "Related Links" from the first post that don't go to HDnation would be my suggestions for what to read on color.
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post #2316 of 4030 Old 10-14-2010, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

It's a simple question, but to really address it could take some time. My personal opinion is that the only shortcoming with ColorHCFR has to do with how it deals with color. Ideally you would calibrate xyY for colors to the same reference that is used in video mastering, but when I tried a search of the calibration forum I didn't quickly find the threads discussing that angle. Another possible way to address the question would depend on the controls your display offers, and I'm not familiar with the display. My own display generally only offers color and tint so I like to use a custom gamut from the "color corrector" tab from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ht=spreadsheet After all this, my best answer is that the two "Related Links" from the first post that don't go to HDnation would be my suggestions for what to read on color.

My TV lets me change the following:
Deep Field Imager
Super Resolution
Edge Enhance
Video Noise
Brightness
Contrast
Color
Tint
Sharpness
Gamma
Red-High
Green-High
Blue-High
Red-Low
Green-Low
Blue-Low
Red Adjust
Green Adjust
Blue Adjust
Magenta Adjust
Cyan Adjust
Yellow Adjust
Smooth 120

I think those are all the ones that matter. If HCFR isnt that accurate, is there a program that gives solid results?
Thanks for your help.
Apaste
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post #2317 of 4030 Old 10-14-2010, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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ColorHCFR is accurate, but depending on how your display measures and what controls you have available, my opinion is just that it may not necessarily present the color information in a way that is clear on what adjustments to make. I think the two links generally do a good job of explaining color.

The high and low items are probably grayscale. I don't know what the adjust controls do. I would guess that they might affect color luminance (Y), but that may not be right.
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post #2318 of 4030 Old 10-15-2010, 03:12 PM
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Hi

Would it be possible to upload the files to multiple host so people who live in countries which block sendspace (e.g Saudi Arabia) can benefit from this great project?

Thanks Dullie for the rapidshare upload.

Thanks for the efforts and appreciate all the hard work on this forum.
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post #2319 of 4030 Old 10-15-2010, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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The current plan is to switch the downloads to Dropbox for the next release, which is still on track for the end of the month. I believe the Spectracal site is currently hosting v1.2 in .exe form.
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post #2320 of 4030 Old 10-16-2010, 07:51 AM
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Hi!

Is it possible to use the AVS HD709 disc to calibrate a media player such as the HDX1000 through the USB drive?
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post #2321 of 4030 Old 10-16-2010, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ev666il View Post

Hi!

Is it possible to use the AVS HD709 disc to calibrate a media player such as the HDX1000 through the USB drive?

You do not calibrate the media player, but rather the TV and the settings associated with the connection that the media player is attached to. You may be able to get the images from the AVS disk on a USB drive that the HDX1000 can play, but I have not seen a post with any details for doing this.
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post #2322 of 4030 Old 10-16-2010, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ev666il View Post

HDX1000

I am not familiar with the device, but the following appears to be the specifications
http://www.hdx1080.com/where-to-buy/...&category_id=1

MP4 is listed, so it should likely play the MP4 version. M2TS is also listed, which is the video that AVCHD and Blu-ray use, but since it doesn't list anything about Blu-ray playlists it would probably be easier to use the MP4. The latest MP4 is in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19224071
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post #2323 of 4030 Old 10-16-2010, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPlayer View Post

You do not calibrate the media player

The media player can affect the signal sent to the display. While all my standalone players are good at passing standard levels, my computer can significantly alter the original video. Depending on what someone is trying to do, the player can be a factor as mentioned in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19300151
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post #2324 of 4030 Old 10-16-2010, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apaste View Post

Will do. When I calibrate my WD-65738 playing the MP4 codec through my XBox 360, in the ColorHCFR do I set it to Rec 709 or Rec 601?

FYI, Rec 709 is the Color matrix for HD video (Blu-Ray, 720p & 1080i/1080p), and Rec 601 is the Color matrix for Standard Definition (SD - DVD, 480i & 480p) video. Both standards use the same gray-scale values.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #2325 of 4030 Old 10-16-2010, 12:16 PM
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Great reference disc. Can't thank you enough.

How do you interpret the interlaced (1080i) pattern under "Miscellaneous Patterns" in the BD version. Should the pattern be stable for a properly performing deinterlacer? Depending which BD player I'm using I see some to moderate "shimmering".

Also, why is this pattern unavailable in the AVCHD version?

Thanks,

Jim
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post #2326 of 4030 Old 10-16-2010, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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The Misc. Patterns that appear on the HDMV and are not on the AVCHD are from w6rz. I don't know if there's any discussion on the deinterlacing pattern besides the comment from the author at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post12986511 Those patterns use mpeg2 video, which is not supported by AVCHD.
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post #2327 of 4030 Old 10-16-2010, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The Misc. Patterns that appear on the HDMV and are not on the AVCHD are from w6rz. I don't know if there's any discussion on the deinterlacing pattern besides the comment from the author at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post12986511 Those patterns use mpeg2 video, which is not supported by AVCHD.

The pattern was intended to be equivalent to the HQV disk "Film Resolution Loss Test" pattern.

I'm sure I still have the source code for that pattern. Let me see if I can find it on Monday.

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
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post #2328 of 4030 Old 10-17-2010, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The media player can affect the signal sent to the display. While all my standalone players are good at passing standard levels, my computer can significantly alter the original video. Depending on what someone is trying to do, the player can be a factor as mentioned in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19300151

I am aware that media players can affect the signal, but the OP specifically asked about the HDX1000, and this unit does not have any controls that can be adjusted or calibrated.
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post #2329 of 4030 Old 10-17-2010, 06:31 AM
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alluringreality: thank you very much!!

BPlayer: my bad. I meant calibrating a plasma using the HDX100 as a source for the patterns.
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post #2330 of 4030 Old 10-17-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

The pattern was intended to be equivalent to the HQV disk "Film Resolution Loss Test" pattern.

I'm sure I still have the source code for that pattern. Let me see if I can find it on Monday.

Ron


Thanks to both of you.

Jim
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post #2331 of 4030 Old 10-18-2010, 03:08 PM
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OK, So I tried calibrating the Grey scale on my Mitsubishi WD-65738 yesterday following the http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewt...6ab540b#115918 instructions and I think I did everything wrong. I took the initial Grey scale reading and then proceeded to adjust the controls using the AVS HD 709 MP4 Ver. 2 Codec from my XBox 360 in 1080p through an HDMI cable. When I loaded the 80 IRE and started taking RGB-HighEnd readings, the colors would come out as follows. red-82 green-107- blue-85. In the guide it said to adjust the blue and red only and not the green. But when I would adjust the red and blue the percentages would only get further away from 100%. Even tho it said not to, I lowered the green and left Reb and Blue alone. Oddly enough it all ended to where Red, Green, and Blue were all 100%. I went to check the 30 IRE to make the necessary adjustments but there was none to be made since they were all at 100%. Confused I took another Grey scale reading and all deltaE readings were 5.5 or lower, with the exception of 0 IRE. I pretty sure I did everything wronge. So if someone could help me or confirm that it is ok, I would greatly appreciate it.

Looking at the graphs everything look ok.. but in the Gamma graph, it starts to spike at the 60 IRE and ends at Gamma 1.9 at the 90 IRE. How could I fix this?

Here's my HCFR file.

 

Apaste HFCR.zip 0.7412109375k . file
Attached Files
File Type: zip Apaste HFCR.zip (759 Bytes, 2 views)
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post #2332 of 4030 Old 10-18-2010, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apaste View Post

Here's my HCFR file.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=786966 is the discussion thread for this. I took a quick look and it generally looked okay. The only thing I really noticed was gamma, but I don't know what it looked like before you made any changes. Really you need to measure the display at the default settings, so that the current settings can be compared with the default settings to see what gets better and what gets worse. Adjusting controls varies somewhat from display to display. My Sony only allows for reducing grayscale items, so it's reasonable to adjust green, since red or blue cannot be increased to match green.
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post #2333 of 4030 Old 10-18-2010, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

I'm sure I still have the source code for that pattern. Let me see if I can find it on Monday.

I just finished up a preliminary build for the new version, and I seem to have ran out of disc space on single layer DVD. Currently I'm at 4.43 GB, so it looks like I need to get rid of about 60 MB. All the w6rz mpeg2 video is showing 168 MB. I suppose it's possible that it might clear the space I need if the w6rz items were switched to mp4. The only other idea I'm coming up with would be to cut the extra patterns.
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post #2334 of 4030 Old 10-18-2010, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I just finished up a preliminary build for the new version, and I seem to have ran out of disc space on single layer DVD. Currently I'm at 4.43 GB, so it looks like I need to get rid of about 60 MB. All the w6rz mpeg2 video is showing 168 MB. I suppose it's possible that it might clear the space I need if the w6rz items were switched to mp4. The only other idea I'm coming up with would be to cut the extra patterns.

Here's a zip file with the YCbCr sequence.

http://www.w6rz.net/filmresyuv.zip

It's 50 frames long, but you should be able to make a clip of any length by just repeating the sequence.

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
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post #2335 of 4030 Old 10-18-2010, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply. The other items I had thought about including were the following:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...06#post8026006
interlacejudder.ts
filmjudder.ts

http://www.w6rz.net/
yc.zip

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16169128
interlace.zip

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16229710
progressive.zip

Would it work if I transcoded these videos to MP4, or would doing that possibly cause issues with these items?
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post #2336 of 4030 Old 10-18-2010, 09:00 PM
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I have a request. As long as new patterns are being added, could a motion resolution test, such as a scrolling "monoscope" please be added?

Many display technologies, especially LCD, have greatly reduced resolution when the image is in motion. Moving resolution grids allow for a quick way to visually determine how much resolution is lost. Thanks.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #2337 of 4030 Old 10-19-2010, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure if I posted the link, but somewhere online I read that the monoscope pattern is 1080i. Neither the HD Guru or Cnet posts appear to confirm if the pattern is 1080i, but it seems reasonable that could be the video type. Assuming the pattern is interlaced, it would primarily apply to things like sports from CBS or NBC. There are a few Blu-rays produced that use interlaced video, but the vast majority of Blu-rays use 24 frames per second progressive video. Assuming the test is 1080i it would not really apply to most Blu-rays.

Personally I have no current interest in developing such a pattern. We have previously included some evaluation patterns from w6rz in the HDMV, but that involved little time invested on my part since we used the video from dr1394. Currently we are very close to DVD capacity, but if someone wants to develop and contribute a pattern to look at interlaced motion we may be able to include it.
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post #2338 of 4030 Old 10-19-2010, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

The pattern was intended to be equivalent to the HQV disk "Film Resolution Loss Test" pattern.

I'm sure I still have the source code for that pattern. Let me see if I can find it on Monday.

Ron


Ron,

Can you give me any insight into evaluating this pattern?

Jim
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post #2339 of 4030 Old 10-19-2010, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I'm not sure if I posted the link, but somewhere online I read that the monoscope pattern is 1080i. Neither the HD Guru or Cnet posts appear to confirm if the pattern is 1080i, but it seems reasonable that could be the video type. Assuming the pattern is interlaced, it would primarily apply to things like sports from CBS or NBC.

It would apply to any live television that has motion (not static images), broadcast in 1080i, which is quite common in many cable and over-the-air US markets. The motion doesn't need to be "sports" or very fast at all to see the quality loss, as demonstrated by the rather leisurely panning of the test patterns I've seen used:


[Note: This Youtube video is too low quality to make any distinctions between the two TVs shown, but I've included it to show the speed of the moving monoscope pattern typically used. From other documents I believe it is 5 seconds/ screen change.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #2340 of 4030 Old 10-19-2010, 05:13 PM
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More:

According to other non verifiable sources, this moving monoscope pattern has been given to industry insiders (which I would think should include you) by the Advanced PDP Development Center Corporation in an attempt to promote their products:

http://www.advanced-pdp.jp/news/e_01.html

although I haven't been able to find a free source, as of yet.

Also according to them in order to generate reliable and consistent resolution figures, the moving image should be photographed first, rather than judged by eye while in motion (as I believe some professional reviewers have done in error), as is seen in the test bench picture here (see "The System of Measurement/ Procedure").

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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