AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 4034 Old 01-06-2008, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiolab1 View Post

42" Sony GWIII... I'm confused with the White Clipping Pattern test. With my current settings, I see no white bars flashing anywhere on the pattern. What does this suggest I need to adjust? And should it be adjusted at the source or the display?

Google shows your TV is a LCD RPTV, so it's probably a digital TV and the clipping pattern might apply. If you turn down contrast (maybe picture being a Sony) and still can't see flashing bars on either the second or thrid pattern, then I'd guess something would be clipping the top-end of the grayscale. Some digital TVs have controls that can clip the top-end of the grayscale, and some sources might clip the top-end of the grayscale. I've never seen your TV and you don't list the source so I really can't make much of a guess why you wouldn't be seeing the bars. With typical settings neither my TV or sources clip the grayscale, and only my computer expands levels and clips by default.


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post #242 of 4034 Old 01-06-2008, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Google shows your TV is a LCD RPTV, so it's probably a digital TV and the clipping pattern might apply. If you turn down contrast (maybe picture being a Sony) and still can't see flashing bars on either the second or thrid pattern, then I'd guess something would be clipping the top-end of the grayscale. Some digital TVs have controls that can clip the top-end of the grayscale, and some sources might clip the top-end of the grayscale. I've never seen your TV and you don't list the source so I really can't make much of a guess why you wouldn't be seeing the bars. With typical settings neither my TV or sources clip the grayscale, and only my computer expands levels and clips by default.

if you cannot see any bars flashing then you need to turn your brightness up. the first two screens are complementary of one another.
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post #243 of 4034 Old 01-06-2008, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by whityfrd View Post

after adjusting for overscan with dve hd, the geometry tweaking screen should be aligned in full tact with all circles within the edges of your screen. this is the case with dve hd. i was able to get my overscan and geometry spot in with dve hd. with this disk, i just decided to look at it and the outer edges of the circles are cut out of the picture. like its incredibly zoomed. anybody else experience this?

The circles go to the edge of the 1080p image, so if you have an RPTV that overscans then the circles will not be on-screen. The bottom and right lines of the grid are cut-off on the W6RZ original. The pattern is included for basic geometry and convergence, so the very bottom few pixels of the lower circles being cut-off isn't really a concern. An LCD or Plasma are the only TV technologies that might show the pattern without any scaling, and convergence and geometry are not a concern with those TVs.

EDIT: I looked at the DVE HD pattern and it is different. The circles on that pattern seems to be contained within about 2.5% overscan.


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post #244 of 4034 Old 01-06-2008, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whityfrd View Post

if you cannot see any bars flashing then you need to turn your brightness up. the first two screens are complementary of one another.

He was talking about white-levels. With the digital TVs I've owned, black level controls haven't had much effect on white-levels. Again though, I'm not familiar with how his TV might work.


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post #245 of 4034 Old 01-08-2008, 08:43 PM
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not too sure if this freeware is worthy. the Black clipping pattern test shows my brightness on my samsung 5271F should be 60! this is WAY too bright.
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post #246 of 4034 Old 01-08-2008, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooms View Post

the Black clipping pattern test shows my brightness on my samsung 5271F should be 60! this is WAY too bright.

Based on what? Clearly I would suggest to see if DVE or Avia come back incorrect with the setting that this disk gives. I think that both of those disks might use 2% levels near black. That would mean you could probably go lower on brightness before you start seeing clipping on their bars, but doing that you could still be clipping grays. GetGray I think uses 1% which is a little closer to black, but I found the movement harder to pick out than the flashing. Anyway, on my players all of the disks are in agreement.

A model number search says the TV is an LCD. Of course the source or other settings on the TV can also alter levels. To this point, no one has indicated that the pattern or description of how to use it would be incorrect for digital TVs.


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post #247 of 4034 Old 01-08-2008, 10:50 PM
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my black bars when watching 2.35 movies look gray at 60. 40 is where its at for me. so black that its hard to tell where the bars end and the black TV frame starts. the other settings check out fine, in fact I didnt have to adjust a thing. guess my eyes judgment is pretty damn good.
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post #248 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
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By your description it sounds like you're cutting out a lot of detail in the low-grayscale. If the TV has a backlight control, you might try turning it down with the brightness the disk is showing. That might darken up the black without so much clipping. If the second (APL) pattern is showing the same setting as the first black clipping pattern, I can't come up with a reason to set the black-level much lower. I know I could hardly stand the LCD I had because of poor black levels.


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post #249 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 12:55 AM
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the 5271 is not like any other LCD. nothing out right now comes close. except maybe the 5281.
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post #250 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooms View Post

not too sure if this freeware is worthy. the Black clipping pattern test shows my brightness on my samsung 5271F should be 60! this is WAY too bright.

We are 99.9999% confident on the accuracy of the patterns on disc. They have been checked and rechecked by different people in YCbCr space, not by looking at a display. No one else has reported anything being off, and the measurements you get with AVS HD fall right in line with those from DVE/Avia.

If your source is accurate and the pattern shows 60 is where your brightness should be, then that is the right setting. It might be gray on an LCD, but that is just a consequence of most LCDs. Look at the pattern again with your brightness set to 40. You most likely won't be able to make out any of the bars flashing above 16 (you should be able to), which means you are clipping grays. On the flashing black pattern, 17 is the first bar you should see flashing. Anything 16 or below shouldn't flash.

We are definetely open to feedback (either bad or good), but before I made statements like "this disc isn't worthy," I would at least use another calibration disc to verify. Don't be surprised if every pattern on this disc "disagrees" with an "eyeball" method.

EDIT: I have never owned an LCD, but have you tried adjusting the backlight down?


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post #251 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooms View Post

the 5271 is not like any other LCD.

I could be wrong, but I figure it clips based on the brightness setting like most any other digital TV.


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post #252 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Google shows your TV is a LCD RPTV, so it's probably a digital TV and the clipping pattern might apply. If you turn down contrast (maybe picture being a Sony) and still can't see flashing bars on either the second or thrid pattern, then I'd guess something would be clipping the top-end of the grayscale. Some digital TVs have controls that can clip the top-end of the grayscale, and some sources might clip the top-end of the grayscale. I've never seen your TV and you don't list the source so I really can't make much of a guess why you wouldn't be seeing the bars. With typical settings neither my TV or sources clip the grayscale, and only my computer expands levels and clips by default.

Sorry for the lack of information in my post!
Yes, my Sony 42" GWIII (42WE610) is a 3 LCD RPTV that is about 4 years old. Source is a Toshiba HD-A3 via HDMI-DVI. I tried turning the picture control all the way down and could still not make out any flashing. Not a big deal, but I'm interested in why this might be.
On the other hand, my 50" SXRD (KDS50A2020) was just deilvered to my house according to my wife, so I'll give this test disc a good run through with the new set!
Thanks again for such a great FREE resource!
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post #253 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 12:07 PM
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Late to this party too, but:

Quote:
If anyone is familiar with open-source patterns for setting sharpness, like ISO 12233, IEEE, or EIA, I would be interested to hear about it.

Might want to PM AussieBob. I beleive he has some IIRC. Someone just sent me some recently, I'll look for them and see if I kept them. In any event Bob's a optical (lens) person. Probably good to engage if he is able to participate.

Also, if there's something on my DVD you want to include, I will donate the Photoshop RGB frames. But the patterns are precise cut on 8 pixel boundaries for their resolution(s). They'd have to be tweaked.

I haven't seen the disc yet, but as 2.35 systems are my focus now, I'd sure like to see a "2.35" pattern.


Best, Scott


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post #254 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 12:13 PM
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Also, a recommendation from experience. When you think th etime is right, start a thread on "using the AVS HD DVD", "burning the AVS HD DVD" and keep one for "DVD development ONLY". Point the "how do I adjust my Samsung model x?" questions from noobs (and others) there. Keep the development thread as clean as you can so the generous technical folks like Ron don't have to muddle through the other stuff as much. My thread got a little long even with ponting people to seperate threads.


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post #255 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiolab1 View Post

Source is a Toshiba HD-A3 via HDMI-DVI.

I don't remember, what are the issues with the Toshibas over DVI? This sort of thing can be difficult to troubleshoot third-person, but I'd probably see what happens using component. That's the first thing that comes to mind, so I'd start there.

For the Sony SXRDs there have been reports that the sub-contrast in the service menu can affect clipping, but that's not exactly the behavior I saw on the A2000. I suppose it's possible the Sony might have user menu controls that would clip, but the SXRDs don't have anything like that. Based on the 3 Toshiba HD DVD players I've used, I can't really expect the A3 would have controls that would clip. Basically the long-standing problem reported about the Toshibas and DVI is the only thing that really comes to mind, but I've only used HDMI so I don't know what that problem was about.


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post #256 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

if there's something on my DVD you want to include, I will donate the Photoshop RGB frames...

I haven't seen the disc yet, but as 2.35 systems are my focus now, I'd sure like to see a "2.35" pattern.

Thanks for the offer.

I take it with 2.35 you're talking aspect ratios for front projectors. I'm not sure if commercial disks are encoded at 1080p with black or if they're at a different resolution. By what I've seen in documentation I would guess they're 1080p and in that case it probably wouldn't be a big deal to include. Looking at the Wiki, I'm not even sure what the height you would be talking with the mention of both 2.35 and 2.39 ratios. If you want to submit some sort of image that would prove useful for your application we'll consider it.


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post #257 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Also, a recommendation from experience... Keep the development thread as clean as you can so the generous technical folks like Ron don't have to muddle through the other stuff as much.

I've just been trying to keep the original post up to date. I'm not very good at reading through threads that I don't look at regularly, so I don't necessarily intend anything past the first couple posts to be too important. Most of the development items have been done outside of the forum. There for a bit there was some talk, but generally there have been few comments regarding the known issues section. I figure if we run into anything serious it will show up in the known issues. Aside from the 24p item, most of that section hasn't much changed since the first disk was released.

Thanks for the idea about the sharpness pattern. I think for now we'll probably release a pattern based on the Imatest image on the next disk and see what people have to say about that. I seem to get very similar settings using it as I do with DVE HD or the Sony Blu-ray pattern. The more I looked at the images geared more toward cameras I found that they tend to show a lot of scaling issues at 1080p. For example I'm almost sure the Sony Stars have a number of effects of scaling in the original image from the 12233 pattern and some of the slanted lines are a complete mess if I remember correctly.


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post #258 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 01:37 PM
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Re the 2.35 thing. A pattern like the "alignment" pattern on my DVD. It is nothing special. Just a static pattern with "marks" where a 2.35 movie would appear within the 16:9 frame. This so when the image is "stretched" by video processor, the "2.35" lines mark the edges of the screen (or where the screen should be).

Best, Scott


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post #259 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Late to this party too, but:

But the patterns are precise cut on 8 pixel boundaries for their resolution(s).

Best, Scott

Why?

By the way, thanks for the input and the offer for patterns.


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post #260 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

Why?

By the way, thanks for the input and the offer for patterns.

Mostly because Ron told me to . It's to minimize anti-aliasing at color boundaries with mpeg2 encding IIRC.


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post #261 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Mostly because Ron told me to . It's to minimize anti-aliasing at color boundaries with mpeg2 encding IIRC.

Ok, thats what I was thinking but wanted to verify. I think we decided that it would be too aggravating to go back and do our patterns that way. Arranging it that way makes sure that the color boundaries fall on macro block boundaries and makes it a little easier for the encoder because every macroblock is a single color (for simple patterns such as color bars).

Haven't seen Ron around for a while to correct me... guess I need to do some more stuff wrong


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post #262 of 4034 Old 01-09-2008, 07:38 PM
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re macroblock boundaries, yes, that was it exactly.

re the 2.35 pattern, this is what I meant. This one isn't anything fancy, it was hard to get someting decent to reproduce well with mpeg2 at SD res. The blue lines should move to the top and bottom of the 16:9 screen when the image is scaled in preparation for an anamorphic lens ad subsequent "Cinemascope" presentation in the home:



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post #263 of 4034 Old 01-12-2008, 08:26 AM
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When measuring gamma for a sony sxrd should window or full field patterns be used?
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post #264 of 4034 Old 01-12-2008, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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On SXRD I expect you would find that windows or fields hardly differ. The 100% window might have a slightly higher Y, but it's probably not exactly going to show up much in gamma. Looking at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=958099 it seems that your measuring device might have a bigger effect on the measured result than the choice of window or field based on what I've seen from SXRD measurements. The impression I've got is that windows might be slightly closer to the requirements of most program material and present fewer problems for certain display devices, so generally that's why the disk is centered around using windows.


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post #265 of 4034 Old 01-12-2008, 10:41 AM
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Thanks. The reason asked the question is because of the iris on the sony sxrd. From what I hear the iris needs to be measured with Full field patterns. If thats the case than I would need a full set of full field patterns to measure the gamma curve.
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post #266 of 4034 Old 01-12-2008, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingd View Post

Thanks. The reason asked the question is because of the iris on the sony sxrd. From what I hear the iris needs to be measured with Full field patterns. If thats the case than I would need a full set of full field patterns to measure the gamma curve.

You should measure gamma on the Sony with the Iris fixed, not one of the Auto modes.

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post #267 of 4034 Old 01-12-2008, 03:36 PM
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So once the sxrd is calibrated with the iris fixed. Is there anything else to do after you engage the auto iris?
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post #268 of 4034 Old 01-12-2008, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingd View Post

So once the sxrd is calibrated with the iris fixed. Is there anything else to do after you engage the auto iris?

No.

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post #269 of 4034 Old 01-12-2008, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwjohn View Post

We are 99.9999% confident on the accuracy of the patterns on disc. They have been checked and rechecked by different people in YCbCr space, not by looking at a display. No one else has reported anything being off, and the measurements you get with AVS HD fall right in line with those from DVE/Avia.

If your source is accurate and the pattern shows 60 is where your brightness should be, then that is the right setting. It might be gray on an LCD, but that is just a consequence of most LCDs. Look at the pattern again with your brightness set to 40. You most likely won't be able to make out any of the bars flashing above 16 (you should be able to), which means you are clipping grays. On the flashing black pattern, 17 is the first bar you should see flashing. Anything 16 or below shouldn't flash.

We are definetely open to feedback (either bad or good), but before I made statements like "this disc isn't worthy," I would at least use another calibration disc to verify. Don't be surprised if every pattern on this disc "disagrees" with an "eyeball" method.

EDIT: I have never owned an LCD, but have you tried adjusting the backlight down?

ok i exaggerated its not exactly gray at 60 but no jet black like at 40. if you check the 5271 thread you will find all of the calibrations posted never go above 50 brightness on this set, even ones where people used pro tools.
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post #270 of 4034 Old 01-12-2008, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooms View Post

ok i exaggerated its not exactly gray at 60 but no jet black like at 40. if you check the 5271 thread you will find all of the calibrations posted never go above 50 brightness on this set, even ones where people used pro tools.

Well I, for one, do have brightness above 50, I know what I am doing, and I use pro tools (though brightness does not need to be measured).

I keep saying EVERY SET IS DIFFERENT!

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