AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 90 - AVS Forum
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post #2671 of 4095 Old 01-14-2011, 01:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvrmstrng View Post

Macbook pro with DVI to HDMI that I use to watch .MKV's
Playstation 3
Epson 8350

VLC (media player i use for .MKV's)

Generally any part of the electronics used can possibly affect playback. Ideally you would want to calibrate each video source. If you watch video from both the PS3 and the computer then you would probably want to check the playback of each device. Some electronics, such as cable or satellite, may not offer test patterns, and in that case one way to handle things is to calibrate for a reference output like commented in #2664.

With the PS3 you could download the AVCHD and burn the image to DVD media. In that case I consider it safe to assume that Sony has made sure the different video types allowed for Blu-ray will all match. By using the AVCHD you would have a reference for Blu-ray playback on the PS3.

With computers things may not be as simple, depending on the software used. With Windows there are certain issues that can show up from different containers or video types, depending on the video drivers or playback software. I'm not familiar with Mac, VLC, or color profiles to really comment about any possible issues in using different containers or video types from the ones you would typically watch with the computer. It's possible that VLC may not exhibit the sorts of possible issues mentioned in the series of replies to smokarz (start at #2651), but putting the calibration video through the same modifications as other video you typically watch might be a more thorough check than simply using the MP4 download to check playback from the computer.
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post #2672 of 4095 Old 01-14-2011, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Generally any part of the electronics used can possibly affect playback. Ideally you would want to calibrate each video source. If you watch video from both the PS3 and the computer then you would probably want to check the playback of each device. Some electronics, such as cable or satellite, may not offer test patterns, and in that case one way to handle things is to calibrate for a reference output like commented in #2664.

With the PS3 you could download the AVCHD and burn the image to DVD media. In that case I consider it safe to assume that Sony has made sure the different video types allowed for Blu-ray will all match. By using the AVCHD you would have a reference for Blu-ray playback on the PS3.

With computers things may not be as simple, depending on the software used. With Windows there are certain issues that can show up from different containers or video types, depending on the video drivers or playback software. I'm not familiar with Mac, VLC, or color profiles to really comment about any possible issues in using different containers or video types from the ones you would typically watch with the computer. It's possible that VLC may not exhibit the sorts of possible issues mentioned in the series of replies to smokarz (start at #2651), but putting the calibration video through the same modifications as other video you typically watch might be a more thorough check than simply using the MP4 download to check playback from the computer.

I am doing my best to understand that post #2651 because clearly that is what is happening. When i play the mp4 from the macbook pro through HDMI to the projector and run the basic contrast test I dont see any of the bars flashing. I guess this would be black crush?

I am also trying to find out if over HDMI it is possible for the macbook to output the correct values (not 0-255)
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post #2673 of 4095 Old 01-14-2011, 09:20 AM
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I installed blacklight to bring the display values up to where they should be, but even with brightness set to full (its 24 i believe) i cannot get bars 17-19 to flash on the brightness test. Not sure whats going on.
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post #2674 of 4095 Old 01-14-2011, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Typical video gray uses 16 luma for black and 235 for reference white, as shown in the patterns. Computers on the other hand commonly use 0 for black and 255 for white. Often computers "expand" the video so that it fits with the computer range. Usually 16 goes to 0, and 235 ends up as 255. It doesn't have to always work that way, and 20 could end up as 0 after the expansion. Generally any video expansion will be handled either by the computer's video drivers or the playback program. Since I don't use the operating system or VLC I cannot really comment on what items to adjust for either changing or avoiding expansion.

Another possibility is that the computer could be expanding so that 16 goes to 0 and the display might not show the entire computer range. Some displays have settings to choose between typical video and computer input ranges. My Sony labels the input range as either limited (video) or full (computer), but since I'm not familiar with the display I also cannot comment on your display settings. Some displays have been reported as unable to display the full computer range, but generally I would expect most recent displays to have a way to set brightness correctly for computer inputs.
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post #2675 of 4095 Old 01-14-2011, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Typical video gray uses 16 luma for black and 235 for reference white, as shown in the patterns. Computers on the other hand commonly use 0 for black and 255 for white. Often computers "expand" the video so that it fits with the computer range. Usually 16 goes to 0, and 235 ends up as 255. It doesn't have to always work that way, and 20 could end up as 0 after the expansion. Generally any video expansion will be handled either by the computer's video drivers or the playback program. Since I don't use the operating system or VLC I cannot really comment on what items to adjust for either changing or avoiding expansion.

Another possibility is that the computer could be expanding so that 16 goes to 0 and the display might not show the entire computer range. Some displays have settings to choose between typical video and computer input ranges. My Sony labels the input range as either limited (video) or full (computer), but since I'm not familiar with the display I also cannot comment on your display settings. Some displays have been reported as unable to display the full computer range, but generally I would expect most recent displays to have a way to set brightness correctly for computer inputs.

Thank you for all your help....im hoping someone with a similar setup will chime in...ill also check out the official 8350 thread.
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post #2676 of 4095 Old 01-16-2011, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvrmstrng View Post

I am also trying to find out if over HDMI it is possible for the macbook to output the correct values (not 0-255)

I wouldn't expect that to be possible. I've certainly never been able to find out how to do it with Apple provided software.
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post #2677 of 4095 Old 01-18-2011, 10:58 AM
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Hi, Ghost here from Mirillis Team.

We came across this great calibration materials reported by a Splash PRO user
that experienced problems running AVS HD 709 AVCHD version with Splash PRO.
We have investigated the problem and found that AVS HD 709 AVCHD version is not 100% AVCHD compliant. It may result in playback problems with players that support AVCHD playback but do not support Blu-ray HDMV playback.

With latest Splash PRO 1.4.1 version we improved AVCHD format support and it is now capable of playing AVS HD 709 AVCHD version.

alluringreality: If it is possible, please kindly add Splash PRO to supported players table on first page of this thread. Thank you!

Ghost / Mirillis Team
www.mirillis.com
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post #2678 of 4095 Old 01-19-2011, 07:31 AM
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post #2679 of 4095 Old 01-21-2011, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvrmstrng View Post

I installed blacklight to bring the display values up to where they should be, but even with brightness set to full (its 24 i believe) i cannot get bars 17-19 to flash on the brightness test. Not sure whats going on.

I too have the epson 8350. i wanted to calibrate using the avs hd 709 files but ran into the same issue. im still trying to figure out what can be done about it but i don't really know where to start.

The projector is amazing although, to me at least, the images look too dark. im currently using "living room" mode. will work on calibrating some more on the weekend. will update if i figure it out.

regards
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post #2680 of 4095 Old 01-21-2011, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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From the online user guide for the Epson 8350, page 37, I would guess that the "HDMI Video Range" allows for a computer input instead of typical video levels. The video here is intended to mimic typical video levels, but some players, such as computers, may alter the output. From a quick skimming of the guide I would guess the setting allows a choice between video and computer levels on the HDMI inputs.
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post #2681 of 4095 Old 01-21-2011, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

From the online user guide for the Epson 8350, page 37, I would guess that the "HDMI Video Range" allows for a computer input instead of typical video levels. The video here is intended to mimic typical video levels, but some players, such as computers, may alter the output. From a quick skimming of the guide I would guess the setting allows a choice between video and computer levels on the HDMI inputs.

Hey,

Thanks for that. for those concerned, on the remote hit menu --> signal --> advanced --> HDMI video range, select expanded.

i am indeed using a computer, after adjusting the hdmi range to "expanded" i see the bars flashing for the test. I will calibrate it sometime this week. the colors look so much better already though.

thanks for the help.
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post #2682 of 4095 Old 01-23-2011, 09:59 AM
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I don't have a DVD burner, but would really like to get a copy of this disc. Anyone feel nice enough to burn a copy for a fellow AVS'er? I would use it on a PS3 and would need the AVCHD version. I could paypal to reimburse for the cost of disc and shipping. PM me if you are willing. Thanks!!
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post #2683 of 4095 Old 01-23-2011, 01:28 PM
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I hope this is the right section (Sorry if it is not)...there seems to be a LOT of people in here that know what they are doing so I will ask my very lame question LOL!! I am wondering what reference level to choose on my Xbox 360 (standard, intermediate, expanded). The reason I ask is because I can only find older information on this (2007-2008 posts) and wonder what you guys have yours set at. My TV is as follows:

4254 Samsung plasma connected to a XBOX via HDMI. I have the color setting set to auto on the xbox.

I have noticed that with "expanded it is hard sometimes to see in dark rooms so I have it on intermediate as of now.

really appreciate and help or opinions.

Thank-You

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post #2684 of 4095 Old 01-23-2011, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post

I have noticed that with "expanded it is hard sometimes to see in dark rooms

Your TV probably has a setting to choose between video (standard) and computer (expanded) levels. By default TVs typically expect video levels, and usually you have to change the TV for computer levels. The MP4 includes patterns for adjusting brightness and contrast, but if you want to use computer levels you will probably first need to change a setting on the TV for the HDMI input levels.

I don't watch video on my Xbox, so I have my TV and Xbox set for expanded levels. Expanded provides some more information between black and white, but I can't say if games actually look any better on my TV by using expanded instead of standard levels. If I used my Xbox for watching video I'd probably just leave the TV and Xbox set for standard video levels.
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post #2685 of 4095 Old 01-23-2011, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Your TV probably has a setting to choose between video (standard) and computer (expanded) levels. By default TVs typically expect video levels, and usually you have to change the TV for computer levels. The MP4 includes patterns for adjusting brightness and contrast, but if you want to use computer levels you will probably first need to change a setting on the TV for the HDMI input levels.

I don't watch video on my Xbox, so I have my TV and Xbox set for expanded levels. Expanded provides some more information between black and white, but I can't say if games actually look any better on my TV by using expanded instead of standard levels. If I used my Xbox for watching video I'd probably just leave the TV and Xbox set for standard video levels.

Thanks for this great info!! I am like you...I never watch movies...just play games. The setting you are referring to I think is my HDMI settings?? I have 3 HDMI ports listed below, I used HDMI 3. I do not see a expanded setting on my TV...just my XBOX???? I am sure you know better than me and i am probably just looking in the wrong place LOL!!

HDMI (1) is "DVD
HDMI (2) is "PC"
HDMI (3) is "It says in the manual used for a device with a HDMI output such as a video game that is not used as much LOL!!"

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post #2686 of 4095 Old 01-23-2011, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Different manufacturers use various names for settings that perform similar functions. Not all displays can accept computer levels (Xbox expanded), but most recent HDTVs can. I would guess the Samsung "HDMI Black Level" option may select between video (Xbox standard) and computer (Xbox expanded) levels. Anyway, the MP4 video can generally be used to look at how settings affect the on-screen image. For example, you could use the Black Clipping pattern to see if the "HDMI Black Level" and "Brightness" settings can show the information above black (17-25) when the Xbox is set for expanded levels.
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post #2687 of 4095 Old 02-02-2011, 05:43 PM
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I wish to calibrate my G20 plasma using the HDMV and Arcsoft player from my Windows PC as I do not own a BluRay player. As I understand it the PC outputs in 0-255 rather than 16-235 and on my Nvidia card even if I switch it to 16-235 in the Nvidia control panel all it does is force player to convert to 16-235 but it's still outputting in 0-255 colorspace on the HDMI output regardless?

I ran Arcsoft and HDMV and the basic test of black level looks correct in 0-255 colorspace anyhow (I see 17 upwards flashing) and if I set to 16-235 in Nvidia control panel I don't see any flashing bars at all so I assume I should just leave everything in 0-255 and calibrate from that using ColorHFCR and Arcsoft as reference? Do I also have to make sure I have not color profiles loaded in Windows color management? I want to be able to copy the calibrated HDTV profile to all sources including broadcast TV but want to make sure this will work using the PC HDMI output.
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post #2688 of 4095 Old 02-02-2011, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Emery View Post

I wish to calibrate my G20 plasma using the HDMV and Arcsoft player from my Windows PC as I do not own a BluRay player.

I'll assume you intend to watch commercial Blu-rays from the computer on the display.


Quote:


I ran Arcsoft and HDMV and the basic test of black level looks correct in 0-255 colorspace anyhow (I see 17 upwards flashing) and if I set to 16-235 in Nvidia control panel I don't see any flashing bars at all so I assume I should just leave everything in 0-255

The discussion on white level in the manual gets into what I consider ideal, but from a practical standpoint I don't see much issue with using 0-255 if you want to use a computer as a video player.


Quote:


I want to be able to copy the calibrated HDTV profile to all sources including broadcast TV but want to make sure this will work using the PC HDMI output.

This sort of situation is not really the intent of the patterns here. The main issue is that it's possible for the video player (source device) to alter the signal sent to the TV. If you are trying to calibrate for a generic source then any alteration may become an issue. While my TV happens to be able to use the same settings for inputs set to 0-255 or 16-235, I also cannot say if that might hold true for other displays. Professionals use signal generators to calibrate for generic sources, whereas the patterns here also involve the player in the calibration.

Personally I use the video here to set my TV for over-the-air HD, but I also have multiple devices (video players) to make sure that one device isn't altering the signal sent to the TV. Since all my players calibrate with almost zero difference over HDMI, I consider it reasonable to assume the devices are outputting standard levels. I believe the free CalMAN generator software may be intended to avoid some of the driver or software issues that could affect video playback on a computer, but I'm not familiar with the exact capabilities of the software or if it differs from how patterns can be generated with ColorHCFR.
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post #2689 of 4095 Old 02-03-2011, 12:04 AM
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I went ahaed and did it anyhow using AVSHD, Arcsoft Total Media Theatre 5 trial and ColorHCFR. These are my readouts. I forgot to capture a screenshot of the standard primaries CIE chart but I think it was close to 4000 on the curve which is close to ideal (I forget. Best check the guide again lol)? Anyhow let me know what you think. I am unsure about the CIE I have posted.






EDIT: Reading through the guide I may have done the color readings incorrectly. Not sure. Can't quite figure out why I have those big white dots all over the graph. Also I forgot to check the Delta E values on the primaries (Should have screencapped that too).

If you can give some pointers on that it would be much appreciated. I may have to go back and redo the color primaries and secondaries?

EDIT2: Looks like I should be paying close attention to the color Delta E values and NOT the corners of the triangle! Oh well back to the drawing board.

EDIT3: How do these values look for color? I used a 2.4 gamma as 2.2 was not getting me under 10 for all values.



Hmm something don't seem right with those settings. The lack of red and green saturation is bothering me. See graph.



OK this will do me for now






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post #2690 of 4095 Old 02-03-2011, 11:45 AM
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Just wanted to say THANKS to the people who created this calibration software. I used it to do a basic calibration on my new OPPO BDP-93, fixed the slight black crush issue, and balanced the colours. Used AVATAR as a sample and everything looked fantastic!

Once again, Thank you,
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post #2691 of 4095 Old 02-03-2011, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Emery View Post

I forgot to check the Delta E values on the primaries (Should have screencapped that too).

The CIE diagram does not give full information on color. The "gamma Y" line, that appears under "delta E", will compare your measured relative Y to the selected target. Since the comparison is relative, I think the small APL measurement patterns may make sense on plasma. The rest of my opinion on color in ColorHCFR is in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post19915477 and that thread is where ColorHCFR measurements are often discussed.
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post #2692 of 4095 Old 02-03-2011, 06:45 PM
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I think it's a matter of opinion on what you are planning to gain from calibration. If you are a professional where color accuracy is essential then cheaping out on an i1/Spyder3 will give you the results you can probably expect. That is. Not 'always' accurate. For enthusiasts and those who just want something a little more in the right ranges these devices are 'good enough'.

I've been comparing my results to the THX profile on my Panasonic plasma HDTV. The red push on the THX setting is so obvious I don't know how I ever did not notice it before (But without a reference I guess you won't). If I switch back and forth between the two I can see my levels are not actually far off in terms of luminance etc. I don't see any black crush or a large jump in brightness. But what I do see is a large shift in the reds. In my calibrated results whites appear to be white without any shift towards any particular hue. Reds are red but not overly garish. One area that shows a good comparison is a shot of some green fields against a blue sky with white and grey clouds. This now looks correct. Of course visual inspection is not as good as using a measuring device but I can definitely see a major improvement (and that is what I am aiming for here for generalised viewing).

I then checked the black clipping test and found it was spot on with 16 downwards completely black and no visible flashing. 17 was barely visibly which is correct for brightness. Contrast on PC output shows a full range of whiter than white and blacker than black at 0-255 and artificially created 16-235 is correct (Nvidia does not output 16-235 through hardware but adds a shader to the player software output instead).

My readings might be out. Heck. Reading that thread, even HCFR may not be 100% accurate regardless of the measuring device used. I guess if I was really anal and had the cash to splash I'd get a spectrometer like a Colormunki or some heavy duty pro gear and signal generator etc. But in the end I think the results are 'good enough' for me.

BTW I used the iMatch software on my 2 PC displays which adjust the video card LUT rather than the monitor LUT. I read that BasicColor do software and a special cable that will work to adjust the LUT on some displays. Do you know anything about this and if it would work on a HP LP2575w? I can't find much info about it (Or pricing).

Thanks for your input.
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post #2693 of 4095 Old 02-04-2011, 08:57 AM
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Can the MP4 version be converted to work with a SD DVD player? Or is there a SD version of this?

.
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Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way. If you like Wi-Fi so much, OTA fits right in. After all, it is wireless.
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post #2694 of 4095 Old 02-04-2011, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Generally I don't recommend converting the HD video to SD, because they use different color encoding. Depending on what you need, there are a number of calibration DVDs. Off hand I can think of Digital Video Essentials, Avia, GetGray, the Disney product, and the free disc at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536. I'm sure there are also other sources.
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post #2695 of 4095 Old 02-04-2011, 08:30 PM
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I have an Insignia NS-BDLIVE01. The Blu-ray player has worked fine with any AVCHD disk I've ever used (20+), though it does not work with the AVCHD version of AVS HD. The player simply lists the folders on the disk as if it does not recognize it as a playable DVD/Blu-ray disc. Can any assistance be offered? Thanks.
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post #2696 of 4095 Old 02-04-2011, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tompic823 View Post

I have an Insignia NS-BDLIVE01. The Blu-ray player has worked fine with any AVCHD disk I've ever used (20+), though it does not work with the AVCHD version of AVS HD.

When I tested the player it was unable to play AVCHD created with commercial authoring software. Based on your comments and the replies in http://community.insigniaproducts.co...IVE01/m-p/1746 I would guess the HDMV may play from DVD media (DVDM listing). Some other players are known to require the Blu-ray folders in order to play using DVD media, and I'm not aware of any player that requires both the extra folders and AVCHD information. Anyway, try putting the HDMV (Blu-ray) version on DVD media and it may work based on the link.
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post #2697 of 4095 Old 02-04-2011, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Anyway, try putting the HDMV (Blu-ray) version on DVD media and it may work based on the link.

I was under the impression that the HDMV version was too large to fit on a standard DVD, otherwise I would have used that copy from the get-go. I'll test it out and report back with my findings. Thanks for the help!

Edit: It works great! Can't wait to calibrate my TV tomorrow. And to think I was going to spend $20 on a calibration DVD.
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post #2698 of 4095 Old 02-05-2011, 07:14 AM
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alluringreality;
I have the DVE & Avia discs, but I don't like the way either is authored. Specific chapters (patterns) are very hard to find on both discs, typical of the lame DVD structure which I haven't like from day one.
I have a copy of GetGray, but haven't burned it yet. I read through the documentation of this and found it to be superior to the others which is why I wanted to see if it would work in the SD format.

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Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way. If you like Wi-Fi so much, OTA fits right in. After all, it is wireless.
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post #2699 of 4095 Old 02-05-2011, 07:48 AM
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Hello all.

I have been using this disc to calibrate my system with Calman.

I should really calibrate the Display with a reference generator BUT

I have a Decklink HD Extreme broadcast output card on my Mac Pro.

If I had a Photoshop document of the bitmapped files on this disc, I could output them to the screen for reference calibration.

Do these files exist anywhere?

If not, would I be right in assuming I can make them in a none colour managed Photoshop File using these numbers for IRE percent?

0% = 16
10% = 38
20% = 60
30% = 82
40% = 104
50% = 126
60% = 147
70% = 169
80% = 191
90% = 213
100% = 235

If this is useful I can repost back here?

Tristan
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post #2700 of 4095 Old 02-05-2011, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

alluringreality;
I have the DVE & Avia discs, but I don't like the way either is authored. Specific chapters (patterns) are very hard to find on both discs, typical of the lame DVD structure which I haven't like from day one.
I have a copy of GetGray, but haven't burned it yet. I read through the documentation of this and found it to be superior to the others which is why I wanted to see if it would work in the SD format.

GetGray was my favorite DVD calibration disc. It does not have all the patterns that AVS HD 709 does, but shares the simplicity of layout and ease of navigation.

You should definitely give it a try.

-Bill
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