AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 96 - AVS Forum
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post #2851 of 4094 Old 07-06-2011, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by fy4coopeslad View Post

hi can i download the mp4 file on to my ps3 through the browser? I have no access to my pc at the moment

I don't think so. IIRC it is in a container so no way to open it on PS3

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post #2852 of 4094 Old 07-09-2011, 06:46 AM
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I'm trying to understand why the gamma results for my Panasonic GT30 plasma vary so much depending on using Windows or APL Windows as a pattern source. Setting the GT30 to THX mode, the gamma is very good using APL windows, and very bad using windows. It seems to me that APL windows are closer to actual content than the windows patterns, so using APL windows for this set would represent better how the set actually performs.

Is this a common finding, or do most sets measure the same with APL windows and windows?
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post #2853 of 4094 Old 07-09-2011, 12:19 PM
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I recall reading in another thread that THX mode is certified using very small window patterns, and that standard windows produce poor gamma results. It seems that the new Panny plasmas have a more aggressive ABL than in the past, and it may be causing some of the behavior that you are witnessing.
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post #2854 of 4094 Old 07-09-2011, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave_O View Post
I'm trying to understand why the gamma results for my Panasonic GT30 plasma vary so much depending on using Windows or APL Windows as a pattern source. Setting the GT30 to THX mode, the gamma is very good using APL windows, and very bad using windows. It seems to me that APL windows are closer to actual content than the windows patterns, so using APL windows for this set would represent better how the set actually performs.

Is this a common finding, or do most sets measure the same with APL windows and windows?
I also see the same thing on my older 2010 S2. If I measure gamma using standard windows, I get around 1.76 gamma response, when I measure using large APL windows I get around 1.92 which is the norm for the S2 set.

LCD's generally don't have this problem, plasma's are known to display this behavior because of ABL/APL fluctuations.

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post #2855 of 4094 Old 07-09-2011, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_O View Post

I'm trying to understand why the gamma results for my Panasonic GT30 plasma vary so much depending on using Windows or APL Windows as a pattern source.

Is this a common finding, or do most sets measure the same with APL windows and windows?

Some TVs measure identical video levels (% shown on pattern) as similar lightness (Y) regardless of the measurement pattern, such as certain fixed-backlighting LCD models and similar TV technologies. Other TVs are more like your example, and they tend to vary luminance (Y) measurements depending on the average picture level of the pattern. I can't say how many TVs technologies or settings fall into each category, and the point is simply that different TVs do not all operate similarly.

Lightness variation from changing average picture level is not very difficult to observe by eye, or at least personally I tend to notice adjusting light output in a dim room. Misc. Patterns A5, Dynamic Brightness, can be used to generally observe what happens to the on-screen image as average picture level changes. The bars in the lower right of the pattern are always the same video levels, and the changing background gives five different average picture levels to observe. Another pattern for looking at how average picture level can change lightness (Y measurement) for the same video levels is the "Black Level Bars + Steps + Varying Gray" pattern on the Avia II DVD, which also has constant bars in the image and part of the background changes from black to white. Either the Dynamic Brightness pattern or the Avia II video provide a quick way to look at how average picture level may affect the on-screen image differently for various TVs models or settings.

The gamma graph is simply a comparison of gray lightness (Y) measurements. The Y value is basically the brightness of the measurement, and higher Y numbers indicate more light output from the TV. The intent of the gamma graph is just to relate how lightness (Y) changes between the video level for black and the video level for white.

There is not a lot of difference between the APL patterns and typical windows. The center video levels are exactly the same in either series of patterns. The only difference is that the APL patterns include the other levels to be measured, so average picture level remains constant for the series. Typical windows have the center video level surrounded by black, so as the video level changes the average picture level of the image also changes. Higher average picture levels (higher % windows), or brighter images, are more difficult for plasma to display, and your measurements simply indicate that your TV tends to vary Y as average picture level changes.

My personal opinion is that for most applications, I currently don't see a reason to use typical windows for measurements. Since different displays do not adjust similarly with changing average picture levels, and because I have not found a clearly-defined reason for including changing average picture levels in measurements, I think it generally makes sense to use constant APL measurements. This perspective is in line with what theory I can remember reading from Charles Poynton. For example the gamma articles from http://www.poynton.com/GammaFAQ.html and http://www.spectracal.com/simplepage...USCPMUTKGMKZWU generally seem to relate video levels with display gamma, and he never address how measured gamma may be affected by items such as various patterns, displays, or settings. Likewise I haven't ran across any experienced calibrators suggesting that there is a clearly-defined way of calibrating gamma on different display types, even though various display technologies like LCD and plasma can clearly measure gamma differently. So my current personal opinion is that if you only want to measure one series of patterns, go with the Large APL. One series of measurements will never give you complete information about a display, but honestly gamma measurement and calibration is not precisely defined at the level people seem to suppose. At least eliminating average picture level fluctuation, by using constant APL patterns, gets rid of some possibly-detrimental effects that can arise with how certain displays or settings react.

EDIT: One situation where APL patterns may not be appropriate would be if you're using a non-contact meter. When using a non-contact meter with the Large APL patterns it would generally be a good idea to try to check if the levels around the edge of the pattern influence the measurements. For example with the color patterns, contamination from the surrounding levels would likely cause different xy measurements compared to typical window measurements.
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post #2856 of 4094 Old 07-14-2011, 11:29 AM
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Hi,

Can I use these patterns to calibrate white balance? (RGB offset/gain) and which one?
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post #2857 of 4094 Old 07-14-2011, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by fallengt View Post

Hi,

Can I use these patterns to calibrate white balance? (RGB offset/gain) and which one?

The 3, 11 or 21 point grayscale (5%, 10%, etc) patterns.
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post #2858 of 4094 Old 07-14-2011, 07:58 PM
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I seem to be having some problems with this process. I'm new to this stuff so sorry if there is a solution in the OP that i did not understand. I have a new Panasonic TC-p50s30 that is connect to my 160GB PS3 slim with an HDMI cord.

As the instructions said, I used Open in Wuala to download the AVCHD (7zip). I then used IMGBurn to burn it to a DVD+R. It went through the process, ejected the disc drive, asked me to push the disc drive back in, and then continued the process (in what i think was the verfiying stage, but i might be wrong).

At about 15% its starts showing error messages about how it could not read the certain maps. This continued as i left my PC for a few hours. When i returned, IMGBurn said the process was done but the the hash values did not work. I tried the process again a few times and even download orbit to get a complete download but the same thing kept happening but a a different percentage.

So i decided to go ahead and use the original one i burned (the one that had errors at 15%). The PS3 read the disc and played it. The disc seemed to have everything on it, from the misc patterns to the hdtv calibration videos. So i followed the process shown on the videos until i got to brightness. No matter how high i turned the brightness, non of the bars 16 or below flashed.

HD nation said it was a problem with the player, in my case the PS3, and that i should change the settings to make sure i was getting the full range output. I looked through the video settings for the PS3 but id did not know what to change. Is the lack of flashing bars caused by the settings on the PS3 or could it be caused by the errors in the burning process? Thanks in advance for the help
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post #2859 of 4094 Old 07-14-2011, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrjohn3 View Post

It went through the process, ejected the disc drive, asked me to push the disc drive back in, and then continued the process (in what i think was the verfiying stage, but i might be wrong).

Yes, the disc ejects before the verification. It sounds like a drive or media issue, but it's hard to say which from the current information. It may be possible the disc could have burned correctly and the computer just can't read it to verify, but without the md5 it's all just a guess at this point.

Probably the easiest thing to do would be to use another computer with a DVD drive. There is a verify disc option in Imgburn, and if you make the settings change from the first post it will give you an md5 for verification. I tested the AVCHD I had and the verify disc in ImgBurn created the correct md5 after I unchecked the "Verify against image file" option.

Quote:


i followed the process shown on the videos until i got to brightness. No matter how high i turned the brightness, non of the bars 16 or below flashed.

Is the lack of flashing bars caused by the settings on the PS3 or could it be caused by the errors in the burning process?

It would be ideal to verify the disc on another computer, but if the video plays and you can see near-white flash on chapters 2 and 3 then I'll figure chapter 1 probably also works. One way that you might not be able to see any near-black bars flash is if you sent computer levels to a TV expecting typical video levels. The PS3 settings at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post13955243 should get typical video levels from the player.
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post #2860 of 4094 Old 07-14-2011, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Probably the easiest thing to do would be to use another computer with a DVD drive. There is a verify disc option in Imgburn, and if you make the settings change from the first post it will give you an md5 for verification. I tested the AVCHD I had and the verify disc in ImgBurn created the correct md5 after I unchecked the "Verify against image file" option.

So i can download ImgBurn on another computer and just use it to verify the hash value for the disc or are you saying do the whole process of downloading and burning on another computer?
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post #2861 of 4094 Old 07-15-2011, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fallengt View Post

Hi,

Can I use these patterns to calibrate white balance? (RGB offset/gain) and which one?

Use 80% gray windows for gains and 30% for offsets.

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post #2862 of 4094 Old 07-15-2011, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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If you can see flashing on the other Basic Settings chapters the video is probably fine. Since it's a calibration disc, it's just best to verify that you have a good burn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrjohn3 View Post

So i can download ImgBurn on another computer and just use it to verify the hash value for the disc

Yes, in order to verify the disc, you can do the following:

1) Install ImgBurn
2) Change ImgBurn settings to create an md5, as shown in the first post
3) Choose ImgBurn 'Verify disc' option from the main ImgBurn screen
4) Uncheck 'Verify against image file' and run
5) Compare the md5 from ImgBurn with the hash in the first post

Quote:


are you saying do the whole process of downloading and burning on another computer?

I would do the above test first to see if the md5 matches. If the md5 doesn't match or if there's read errors again, then I might try a new burn on a second computer. Your download is probably good since you used the Wuala software, so if you have a usb memory stick that is big enough to hold the downloaded file you probably wouldn't need to download again.
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post #2863 of 4094 Old 07-15-2011, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I would do the above test first to see if the md5 matches. If the md5 doesn't match or if there's read errors again, then I might try a new burn on a second computer. Your download is probably good since you used the Wuala software, so if you have a usb memory stick that is big enough to hold the downloaded file you probably wouldn't need to download again.

For some reason, the hash values never seem to match. I tried burning again and i didn't work either. But, after changing the settings on my ps3, i could see all the flashing below reference black. So my question now is, what does it mean when the hash values do not match? It seems to me that the entire video is on the disc and it is working fine. Will it cause errors in calibration? My second question is, I am looking to buy another calibration disc. Is WOW blu-ray the one you recommend or should i try DVE, Avia, Spears & Munsil, Monster, etc.?
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post #2864 of 4094 Old 07-16-2011, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lbrjohn3 View Post

what does it mean when the hash values do not match?

A matching hash indicates that the disc should be identical to the original. A non-matching hash indicates something probably didn't go exactly as planned in the download, decompression, or burn. A non-matching hash likely comes down to computer troubleshooting.

Did you use the download from the first computer when you burned the disc from the second computer? If so, on second thought, that probably wasn't the best advice. I suppose it's possible the issues on the first computer could have been been from memory or storage, rather than the DVD drive or media like I first guessed. I've seen more than my fair share of computer memory issues, so I've decided to run a thorough memory check like http://www.memtest86.com/download.html whenever I buy a different computer.


Quote:
It seems to me that the entire video is on the disc and it is working fine. Will it cause errors in calibration?

A non-matching hash won't necessarily cause issues. For example something like bad memory could throw off the hash, but it would be unlikely to consistently change video levels. Mainly the hash is simply provided as piece of mind that everything worked exactly as intended and you have a disc that's identical to the original. Honestly I doubt most people check the hash.


Quote:
My second question is, I am looking to buy another calibration disc. Is WOW blu-ray the one you recommend or should i try DVE, Avia, Spears & Munsil, Monster, etc.?

I don't have experience with a number of the items on the list. Between DVE and Avia, I've always thought Avia had better practical explanations for video adjustments. I haven't used the Spears & Munsil disc, and I don't agree entirely with all their comments I've read, but I do think http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/articles.html is very thorough in regards to practical explinations.
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post #2865 of 4094 Old 07-16-2011, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrjohn3 View Post

For some reason, the hash values never seem to match. ..

If you do not have a working version of md5sum and if you use the 7zip version (.7z). The 7zip software has an option to test the archive also and will tell you if have corrupted download.
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post #2866 of 4094 Old 07-18-2011, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by tranle View Post

If you do not have a working version of md5sum and if you use the 7zip version (.7z). The 7zip software has an option to test the archive also and will tell you if have corrupted download.

Cyohash will calculate CRC, md5sum, sha1, sha2 in one pass.
And it is fast and free.

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post #2867 of 4094 Old 07-19-2011, 02:10 AM
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Hi, I'm using the MP4 files at the moment, on a usb stick in my ps3 (many thanks for this by the way, I didn't expect to find a tool like this without having to buy a disc)

I guess I must be doing something wrong though, as no matter what settings I use I only see, for example, bars 17 - 25 on the black clipping video and bars 230-234 on the white clipping, even with brightness on 100 or contrast on 0.

I've got a PS43D450 (or PN43D450)

I've done as well as I can but the image is very dark. I don't know if it makes any difference but it's only a few hours old.

I hope it can be improved because I only got it yesterday and I'm already planning a trip to richer sounds to look at TV's!!
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post #2868 of 4094 Old 07-19-2011, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kpm197 View Post

Hi, I'm using the MP4 files at the moment, on a usb stick in my ps3 (many thanks for this by the way, I didn't expect to find a tool like this without having to buy a disc)

I guess I must be doing something wrong though, as no matter what settings I use I only see, for example, bars 17 - 25 on the black clipping video and bars 230-234 on the white clipping, even with brightness on 100 or contrast on 0.

I've got a PS43D450 (or PN43D450)

I've done as well as I can but the image is very dark. I don't know if it makes any difference but it's only a few hours old.

I hope it can be improved because I only got it yesterday and I'm already planning a trip to richer sounds to look at TV's!!

Set your PS3 to Y/Pb/Cb not RGB, turn superwhite off and re-calibrate. It sounds like the PS3 is outputting RGB/0-255 instead of YPbCb/16-235

Picture without sound is surveillance.
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post #2869 of 4094 Old 07-19-2011, 05:34 PM
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The AVS disc does not setup brightness correctly on any of my blu ray player/ HDTV combos.

Setting the brightness setting to show line 17 flashing, but 16 staying true to video black results in a setting that keeps the signal-less black level seemingly correct...but once you play a blu-ray disc, the black level is much too high.

Only when setting the black level with the DVE blu ray disc's grayscale ramp pattern, using the white dot indicators on the ends of the ramps can I set black level correctly. With the "17" method, the DVE ramp shows the black level rising and dithering way past the video black indicators. In result, several tested blu-ray's video black levels dither, in several movies. Once I fix the brightness setting so the rise out of black/dithering begins just after the indicator dots is the brightness correct in the blu-ray playback.

A plasma thing? I know how to properly setup various blu-ray players and HDTVs to ensure correct video levels are being fed and displayed. Using the "17" method is simply wrong.

I encourage anyone to try this little test out and see for yourself.

What am I missing here? Are you guys actually evaluating the content you watch after you setup your set using this disc?
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post #2870 of 4094 Old 07-19-2011, 06:23 PM
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You don't get btb or wtw from non disc media on PS3, no matter what settings.
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post #2871 of 4094 Old 07-19-2011, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

The AVS disc does not setup brightness correctly on any of my blu ray player/ HDTV combos.

Setting the brightness setting to show line 17 flashing, but 16 staying true to video black results in a setting that keeps the signal-less black level seemingly correct...but once you play a blu-ray disc, the black level is much too high.

Only when setting the black level with the DVE blu ray disc's grayscale ramp pattern, using the white dot indicators on the ends of the ramps can I set black level correctly. With the "17" method, the DVE ramp shows the black level rising and dithering way past the video black indicators. In result, several tested blu-ray's video black levels dither, in several movies. Once I fix the brightness setting so the rise out of black/dithering begins just after the indicator dots is the brightness correct in the blu-ray playback.

A plasma thing? I know how to properly setup various blu-ray players and HDTVs to ensure correct video levels are being fed and displayed. Using the "17" method is simply wrong.

I encourage anyone to try this little test out and see for yourself.

What am I missing here? Are you guys actually evaluating the content you watch after you setup your set using this disc?

I used the AVS HD709 disk to calibrate my LG 47LD520 via my Panasonic BDT-210 Blu-ray player. Even knowing that blacks are not the best on an LCD, I got a calibration that looks extremely well and is consistent. I used the Seabiscuit blu-ray to check my calibration (which is a good reference check disk). All tv enhancements were off and the Panny was set to defaults. With the use of a bias light it looks really good. I've periodically gone back and checked my cals and haven't had to make any adjustments.
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post #2872 of 4094 Old 07-20-2011, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

The AVS disc does not setup brightness correctly on any of my blu ray player/ HDTV combos.

Setting the brightness setting to show line 17 flashing, but 16 staying true to video black results in a setting that keeps the signal-less black level seemingly correct...but once you play a blu-ray disc, the black level is much too high.

Only when setting the black level with the DVE blu ray disc's grayscale ramp pattern, using the white dot indicators on the ends of the ramps can I set black level correctly. With the "17" method, the DVE ramp shows the black level rising and dithering way past the video black indicators. In result, several tested blu-ray's video black levels dither, in several movies. Once I fix the brightness setting so the rise out of black/dithering begins just after the indicator dots is the brightness correct in the blu-ray playback.

A plasma thing? I know how to properly setup various blu-ray players and HDTVs to ensure correct video levels are being fed and displayed. Using the "17" method is simply wrong.

I encourage anyone to try this little test out and see for yourself.

What am I missing here? Are you guys actually evaluating the content you watch after you setup your set using this disc?

I used AVSHD 709 as the principal means to calibrate my LCD TV and LCD projector, and used DVE HD disc (the pluge pattern and the grayscale ramp pattern) to re-check the black level. I always get consistent result from both discs.

Are you using plasma? I have no experience on calibrating plasma; but your display seems to have some dynamic behaviour in which, when displaying the low APL pattern (such as the AVSHD's black clipping pattern), it lowers the light output so that you need to turn up the Brightness control a little bit in order to see bar 17 flashing (don't know ... just a guess).
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post #2873 of 4094 Old 07-20-2011, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by m-heat View Post

Set your PS3 to Y/Pb/Cb not RGB, turn superwhite off and re-calibrate. It sounds like the PS3 is outputting RGB/0-255 instead of YPbCb/16-235

thanks i'll try this when i get home. i also plugged the usb direct to the tv and this time it showed ALL the bars on black clipping and white clipping, no matter if the brightness or contrast were at 0 or 100 or anywhere in between. i'll check the tv menu on usb to see if there's anything to change for display output.
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post #2874 of 4094 Old 07-20-2011, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

What am I missing here?

It's hard to say without more information.
Quote:
Are you guys actually evaluating the content you watch after you setup your set using this disc?

Yes we are. With correct technique, a properly setup player and a clean path to correctly configured display this disc is excellent. Naturally there are many places where one can go wrong.
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post #2875 of 4094 Old 07-20-2011, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kpm197 View Post
thanks i'll try this when i get home. i also plugged the usb direct to the tv and this time it showed ALL the bars on black clipping and white clipping, no matter if the brightness or contrast were at 0 or 100 or anywhere in between. i'll check the tv menu on usb to see if there's anything to change for display output.
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Originally Posted by m-heat View Post
Set your PS3 to Y/Pb/Cb not RGB, turn superwhite off and re-calibrate. It sounds like the PS3 is outputting RGB/0-255 instead of YPbCb/16-235
hi, i found the settings you refer and played with them all but no change. i'll burn the AVCHD and try with the ps3 again.
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post #2876 of 4094 Old 07-20-2011, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Edo Gálvez View Post
You don't get btb or wtw from non disc media on PS3, no matter what settings.
can you elaborate for me? i seem to have the opposite problem in that no matter what brightness or contrast i use i can't get any lines showing up lower than the reference point
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post #2877 of 4094 Old 07-20-2011, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kpm197 View Post

can you elaborate for me? i seem to have the opposite problem in that no matter what brightness or contrast i use i can't get any lines showing up lower than the reference point

That's the same thing. I think what he is saying is that for non-disc media, PS3 is using RGB and so you cannot do btb or WTW because it is just not encoded that way.
For you to see "lower than reference (i.e. below 16 for btb and above 235 for wtw), you need to use YPbPr. For your display, you might also need to turn on "Black level" or something as well.
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post #2878 of 4094 Old 07-20-2011, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

Only when setting the black level with the DVE blu ray disc's grayscale ramp pattern, using the white dot indicators on the ends of the ramps can I set black level correctly. With the "17" method, the DVE ramp shows the black level rising and dithering way past the video black indicators. In result, several tested blu-ray's video black levels dither, in several movies. Once I fix the brightness setting so the rise out of black/dithering begins just after the indicator dots is the brightness correct in the blu-ray playback.

The description in the PDF for using the APL Clipping pattern shouldn't be wildly different from the sort of black level setting that would typically result with the standard DVE pluge instructions. The Black Clipping pattern simply takes some guesswork out of the typical DVE pluge instructions on some displays. It sounds like your setting from the DVE ramp might not correspond with the standard DVE pluge instructions, so one way or another you may have to choose a compromise. Setting brightness lower than suggested by the main patterns here, or the standard DVE pluge, would likely result in a loss of information on darker scenes.

It's possible that black level might fluctuate on some digital displays. If black level does vary it would likely change depending on average picture level. If black level changes depending on average picture level, then any single static image will not give complete information on how the display functions. The Dynamic Brightness pattern here includes 10% bars in the corner, and you can see if the bars tend to adjust relative to each other as the background changes. For example some CRTs vary so much that the 10% bar can blend with black on some scenes. On DVE they included a pluge on all their grayscale windows, and so you could look at the DVE windows to see if the pluge varies from window to window. Avia II has some tests where constant bars are shown and part of the image changes average picture level. My main point is that if your display varies black level, only looking at the ramp/bar test will not show what happens with other average picture level images.
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post #2879 of 4094 Old 07-20-2011, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

That's the same thing. I think what he is saying is that for non-disc media, PS3 is using RGB and so you cannot do btb or WTW because it is just not encoded that way.
For you to see "lower than reference (i.e. below 16 for btb and above 235 for wtw), you need to use YPbPr. For your display, you might also need to turn on "Black level" or something as well.

Yup. In other words, besides configuration you will have to get the AVCHD version.
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post #2880 of 4094 Old 07-22-2011, 09:53 AM
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hi, i burned a disc and it helped alot. i found the video on there explaining how calibration works and now i understand that the more white bars i see the better, and that i shouldn't be trying to hide all the bars passed the reference white. i turned superwhite on in the ps3 menu and it gave me a load more bars with a red tint but after reducing the contrast 15% or so the red went away. i can also now see more bars on the black clipping so i've reduced the ones i dont' need. the tv has rgb settings so i've done the basic colour now too.

i'm going to try and do the white balance later, i saw this comment so i'll see how i go. thanks for your help.

Hi,
Can I use these patterns to calibrate white balance? (RGB offset/gain) and which one?
Use 80% gray windows for gains and 30% for offsets.
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