AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 97 - AVS Forum
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post #2881 of 4027 Old 07-23-2011, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
Use 80% gray windows for gains and 30% for offsets.
hi, is there an idiots guide to setting up white gain? i can see the files on the disc (varying steps of 80% and 30% gray). do i need any specific tools or should i be able to do it with just the disc?

thanks, kris
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post #2882 of 4027 Old 07-23-2011, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpm197 View Post

do i need any specific tools or should i be able to do it with just the disc

Unless your TV is way off, for example if dark scenes have a clearly different shade of gray than bright scenes, usually if you have no additional tools you'll want to simply select from the default gray settings, such as Neutral, Cool, Warm. Beyond that level of coarse gray adjustment, some sort of reference for setting gray would be generally recommended, such as a meter for measurements. Some of the Related Links from the first post discuss Measurements. Sometimes people will post which of the default gray settings measured closest to a reference gray for their TV, such as TV reviews or the LCD and plasma forums. If you have the same model TV, you might use those sorts of recommendations for selecting between the default gray options (neutral, cool, warm, etc.). More precise adjustment would generally require additional tools to use as a reference, such as a meter for measurements or a gray card and a light that comes close to D65 for gray comparison.
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post #2883 of 4027 Old 07-27-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpm197 View Post
hi, is there an idiots guide to setting up white gain? i can see the files on the disc (varying steps of 80% and 30% gray). do i need any specific tools or should i be able to do it with just the disc?

thanks, kris
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Downloadable FREE demo discs:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/de...ently-authored 

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #2884 of 4027 Old 07-29-2011, 04:18 AM
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thanks for that link

now... is it worth me buying an eyeone and attempt to self calibrate? how much improvement would i see over copying someone elses calibration settings? i know all displays are different but if i'm only looking at a 20% increase in pq it may not be worth the expenditure
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post #2885 of 4027 Old 07-29-2011, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpm197 View Post

thanks for that link

now... is it worth me buying an eyeone and attempt to self calibrate? how much improvement would i see over copying someone elses calibration settings? i know all displays are different but if i'm only looking at a 20% increase in pq it may not be worth the expenditure

I don't know how you quantify 20% increase in PQ, as I don't know there is any scientific way (or agreed upon way) to measure PQ. You may be able to use DeltaE.. but still a 20% reduction in deltaE can mean different result (from deltaE 2 to 1.6 does not mean as much as from DeltaE 4 to 3.2).

Pretty much everyone will tell you that copying other result is like shooting in the dark. You can get lucky, but you can get unlucky as well. Without proper equipment to measure, you actually won't know... unless you have worked and are experienced in watching "accurate" patterns/movies for a long time.

For me, I started with i1D2 + HCFR (a $100 investment..) and already learned a lot about my TV and the calibration process. I later upgrade to CALMAN + i1D2/ColorMunki. My grayscale is now DeltaE<2, and the skintone on the movies are really much better than before (I can flip the profile on my PJ and the result is quite different).

If you are interested, PM me "soon" as I am considered selling my i1D2 and upgrade to i1D3.
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post #2886 of 4027 Old 07-29-2011, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

I don't know how you quantify 20% increase in PQ, as I don't know there is any scientific way (or agreed upon way) to measure PQ. You may be able to use DeltaE.. but still a 20% reduction in deltaE can mean different result (from deltaE 2 to 1.6 does not mean as much as from DeltaE 4 to 3.2).

Pretty much everyone will tell you that copying other result is like shooting in the dark. You can get lucky, but you can get unlucky as well. Without proper equipment to measure, you actually won't know... unless you have worked and are experienced in watching "accurate" patterns/movies for a long time.

For me, I started with i1D2 + HCFR (a $100 investment..) and already learned a lot about my TV and the calibration process. I later upgrade to CALMAN + i1D2/ColorMunki. My grayscale is now DeltaE<2, and the skintone on the movies are really much better than before (I can flip the profile on my PJ and the result is quite different).

If you are interested, PM me "soon" as I am considered selling my i1D2 and upgrade to i1D3.

i'm not talking about a literal 20% difference in pq, but i guess it's a subjective question. the settings i got from basic calibration and from another thread on the avs site have improved the pq by a great deal, i just wondered how much better i could expect the pq to be if i went from basic calibration with the use of the disc to calibration with the use of an i1d2. i'm interested in your i1d2. i'm in the uk so you'll have to get my a shipping cost. i'll pm you.
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post #2887 of 4027 Old 07-29-2011, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpm197 View Post

i'm not talking about a literal 20% difference in pq, but i guess it's a subjective question. the settings i got from basic calibration and from another thread on the avs site have improved the pq by a great deal, i just wondered how much better i could expect the pq to be if i went from basic calibration with the use of the disc to calibration with the use of an i1d2. i'm interested in your i1d2. i'm in the uk so you'll have to get my a shipping cost. i'll pm you.

Yes, it is quite subjective. However, without equipment to "measure" your dE on Gamut and Grayscale, you can't really know if you can "improve" anymore. dE<3 is considered human eye indistinguishable.. so if you are already <3, then you probably won't see any improvement... So, sorry, I don't think anyone would be able to answer your question on if you will see further improvements.

Having said that, I personally think that i1D2 + HCFR (free) is a really cheap way to learn. Less than $100, you at least know "how" good you are, and can learn what parameters are affecting your TV.
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post #2888 of 4027 Old 07-29-2011, 11:37 PM
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I think an i1 Display 2 is a great investment. You can get acceptable color with a TV's blue mode or by looking through a blue filter, but you really need a measurement device to calibrate grayscale and get the color temperature right, and I think that's critical for a natural looking image. Color HCFR has a learning curve, but it's an excellent piece of free software if you have a Windows laptop (or Mac--I used it via VMware Fusion and it worked perfectly). You of course can use it to calibrate your computer displays too, and that's actually a much quicker process since a lot of it is automated.

The only thing that might give you pause is if you have a Mac and plan to upgrade to Lion. The current i1 Match software (for calibrating a Mac display) is not compatible. I'm not sure when the i1 Display 2 will ship with the new software. If you buy that updated package you'll have the added confidence of knowing you purchased a very recent i1. Colorimeters can drift a bit as they age, so the newer the better.

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post #2889 of 4027 Old 08-02-2011, 01:06 AM
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Hey kpm 197 an fellow ps3 users dOnt freak out over your new tv being bad at black to white levels go into ps3 display settings and make sure rgb range is set to limited not full this brought up all the flashing white and black level bars!!
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post #2890 of 4027 Old 08-02-2011, 01:32 AM
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cheers mat, a few peeps mentioned that a couple of pages back
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post #2891 of 4027 Old 08-02-2011, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

Yes, it is quite subjective. However, without equipment to "measure" your dE on Gamut and Grayscale, you can't really know if you can "improve" anymore. dE<3 is considered human eye indistinguishable.. so if you are already <3, then you probably won't see any improvement... So, sorry, I don't think anyone would be able to answer your question on if you will see further improvements.

Having said that, I personally think that i1D2 + HCFR (free) is a really cheap way to learn. Less than $100, you at least know "how" good you are, and can learn what parameters are affecting your TV.

This is incorrect. Delta E less than 1 is indistinguishable. 3 or less is acceptable calibration for monitors.

http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Delta_...lor_Difference
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post #2892 of 4027 Old 08-02-2011, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

This is incorrect. Delta E less than 1 is indistinguishable. 3 or less is acceptable calibration for monitors.

http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Delta_...lor_Difference

Actually, it depends on which dE formula is being used.
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post #2893 of 4027 Old 08-06-2011, 05:03 PM
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Sharp BD-HP24U(a) is compatible with the AVCHD image. I just burned it and it works great
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post #2894 of 4027 Old 08-07-2011, 07:41 PM
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I use Eahoosoft DVD Ripper, fast speed and work fine
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post #2895 of 4027 Old 08-07-2011, 08:13 PM
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I want to do a calibration where the pattern disc is run from the HTPC. I want to be using JRiver and madVR as my playback environment. MadVR and JRiver together as a pair only suppots a subset of the BD Menu system. They refer to it as BD Menu Lite, whatever that really means.

Which vesion should I download? While madVR produces beautiful output the gamut looks a little wonky and is either oversaturated or pushes magenta a little bit. I could use something PowerDVD to do run the pattern disk but madVR is going to be used whereever possible.

Thanks
Gary

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post #2896 of 4027 Old 08-07-2011, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I want to do a calibration where the pattern disc is run from the HTPC. I want to be using JRiver and madVR as my playback environment. MadVR and JRiver together as a pair only suppots a subset of the BD Menu system. They refer to it as BD Menu Lite, whatever that really means.

Which vesion should I download? While madVR produces beautiful output the gamut looks a little wonky and is either oversaturated or pushes magenta a little bit. I could use something PowerDVD to do run the pattern disk but madVR is going to be used whereever possible.

Thanks
Gary

Gtgray,

Look on the download page link on the first post of this thread and you will see you can get the patterns in mp4 file format to use on a computer, this does not have menu structure, rather has each pattern as a file.

Hope this helps
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post #2897 of 4027 Old 08-12-2011, 04:07 PM
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I have an question regarding my Samsung LCD. I currently have Contrast at 100 and 230-234 on the White Clipping Pattern remains flashing and there no (obvious) discoloration. With the A4 Color Clipping pattern, I cannot see all of the bars from 219-233 for each color (particularly with red and blue), only some. I'm using a PS3 set to RGB Limited output (in other words I'm not using YCbCr). Does this mean I need to lower contrast until I can see 219-233 flash for each primary? Also, does 233 need to flash clearly or can it be barely flashing?

edit: Changing the PS3 to YCbCr output (even with super white off) fixes the issue with contrast still at 100.
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post #2898 of 4027 Old 08-13-2011, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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The PDF has been changed for descriptions on Basic Settings chapters 1 and 2. For any displays and room conditions where the Black Clipping and APL Clipping clipping patterns are in agreement there will be zero intended change with the revised instructions. On displays with questionable near-black performance and/or dim room lighting the revised PDF instructions simply allow for lowering brightness, and possibly clipping gray levels 17 & 18, to better fit with Avia recommendations. The Digital Video Essentials audio instructions basically allow for also clipping 19 on a digital display, so depending on display performance and room conditions, users may still see a slight variation in brightness settings depending on what pattern and recommendations they choose to follow.
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post #2899 of 4027 Old 08-14-2011, 08:53 PM
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I cant change my HDMI black level, when using my Samsung TV and PS3, with the AVCHD disc.

If i were to use the HDMV disc would that bring back the option?

I feel like i cant calibrate my TV right, without that option, unless the HDMIblack level is set to low even when its not changeable.
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post #2900 of 4027 Old 08-14-2011, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EYEramid View Post

I cant change my HDMI black level, when using my Samsung TV and PS3, with the AVCHD disc.

I'm not aware of any players that clearly function differently depending on the disc. Generally I would expect the AVCHD output to function similarly in most respects to commercial Blu-rays, but it's possible that may not be the case with all players. Are you saying the TV functions differently depending if the AVCHD or a commercial Blu-ray is played? If so, maybe the player is outputting differently depending on the disc.

Quote:


If i were to use the HDMV disc would that bring back the option?

I don't know. No one has reported that the AVCHD output from the PS3 might vary in comparison to commercial Blu-rays. With my electronics the formatting doesn't really matter, but I don't own a PS3. I believe the PS3 settings from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post13955243 will give you typical video levels.
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post #2901 of 4027 Old 08-15-2011, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EYEramid View Post

I cant change my HDMI black level, when using my Samsung TV and PS3, with the AVCHD disc.

If i were to use the HDMV disc would that bring back the option?

I feel like i cant calibrate my TV right, without that option, unless the HDMIblack level is set to low even when its not changeable.

On my Samsumg display, HDMI black level is adjustable only when the display is receiving an RGB signal, not when receiving YCbCr. If you have been experimenting with color spaces in the player you may have lost the adjustment for that reason.

I believe there is also a bug in the Samsungs such that some black level processing improperly occurs with YCbCr if you have adjusted it while sending RGB. I leave my players on RGB Video for that reason.

Similarly, it seems to me that grayscale on the display is different when changing between 24hz and 60hz input signals, so I no longer use 24hz.

I can't verify either of these bugs without meters, but I did experiments by eye over a long period of time. It's my story and I'm sticking to it.

-Bill
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post #2902 of 4027 Old 08-15-2011, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post


I believe there is also a bug in the Samsungs such that some black level processing improperly occurs with YCbCr if you have adjusted it while sending RGB. I leave my players on RGB Video for that reason.



-Bill

This is not true. When sending YCbCr to the TV, this setting is irrelevant as the YCbCr color space always uses video levels (16-235). The HDMI Black Level setting only exists to tell the TV whether a RGB signal sent to the TV via HDMI is a PC signal or a video signal.
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post #2903 of 4027 Old 08-15-2011, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

This is not true. When sending YCbCr to the TV, this setting is irrelevant as the YCbCr color space always uses video levels (16-235). The HDMI Black Level setting only exists to tell the TV whether a RGB signal sent to the TV via HDMI is a PC signal or a video signal.

I agree it should be irrelevant, but consumer electronics sometimes have flaws. Buggy software can do all sorts of strange things.

-Bill
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post #2904 of 4027 Old 08-15-2011, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

This is not true. When sending YCbCr to the TV, this setting is irrelevant as the YCbCr color space always uses video levels (16-235). The HDMI Black Level setting only exists to tell the TV whether a RGB signal sent to the TV via HDMI is a PC signal or a video signal.

so what your saying is that all YCbCr signals will always have the hdmi black level setting off, or not changeable

so hdmi black level low is 16-235?
and hdmi black level normal is 0-255?

Thanks
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post #2905 of 4027 Old 08-15-2011, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EYEramid View Post

so what your saying is that all YCbCr signals will always have the hdmi black level setting off, or not changeable

so hdmi black level low is 16-235?
and hdmi black level normal is 0-255?

Thanks

Yes and YCbCr is always 16-235 (blacker than black and whiter than white can still be present though). If it is grayed out, the setting is irrelevant.
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post #2906 of 4027 Old 08-15-2011, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

I agree it should be irrelevant, but consumer electronics sometimes have flaws. Buggy software can do all sorts of strange things.

-Bill

What model of TV do you have? It could be an issue with your specific model and (possibly) firmware version. I haven't noticed anything like that on my 3 Samsung LCDs.
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post #2907 of 4027 Old 08-15-2011, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

What model of TV do you have? It could be an issue with your specific model and (possibly) firmware version. I haven't noticed anything like that on my 3 Samsung LCDs.

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1018.1 is my firmware
they dont offer a firmware for this anymore, or i cant find it
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

What model of TV do you have? It could be an issue with your specific model and (possibly) firmware version. I haven't noticed anything like that on my 3 Samsung LCDs.

UN46B8500, the local dimming LED backlit model no longer made.

It's very possible it is a model specific bug, although the controls across the Samsung lines often looks similar, which makes me wonder about shared code and possibly shared bugs.

I recall discussion of known problems in different models but didn't save the links. As I said I can't prove this without metering, and even then tracing the behavior of possibly buggy systems is a lot of work: it's not necessarily deterministic.

Sorry, off topic. I use RGB Video color space and 60hz frame rate to work around problems which may or may not exist.

-Bill
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post #2909 of 4027 Old 08-17-2011, 05:25 PM
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i've been using my eye-one display 2 for the first time tonight, along with hcfr and avs709. i've just been working on the greyscale and on 30-100IRE i can get very close to 100% on each of the red, green and blue levels for each % grey. the gamma is around 2.3 without tweaking, the rgb levels are good, the colour temperature is very close to 6500k, BUT the luminance runs below the white target line all way the up. it seems to run along a turquoise line on the luminance graph.

should it be on the line at this stage, or should i calibrate gamma (etc) first and worry about the luminance later?
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post #2910 of 4027 Old 08-17-2011, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpm197 View Post

i've been using my eye-one display 2 for the first time tonight, along with hcfr and avs709. i've just been working on the greyscale and on 30-100IRE i can get very close to 100% on each of the red, green and blue levels for each % grey. the gamma is around 2.3 without tweaking, the rgb levels are good, the colour temperature is very close to 6500k, BUT the luminance runs below the white target line all way the up. it seems to run along a turquoise line on the luminance graph.

should it be on the line at this stage, or should i calibrate gamma (etc) first and worry about the luminance later?

If you are happen with the luminance (i.e. it is bright enough for you), then you should be OK. Make sure you set the contrast and brightness to the right level though.. (i.e. for contrast, you should still see at least 235 level flashing)
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