Calibration meter shootout - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 315 Old 01-26-2010, 09:30 AM
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And here are the results from the Chroma 5.

IMO, for a 5 year old meter the DPT94 is not doing too badly. BTW, the Samsung was calibrated with the C5.

Clearly the DPT94 color filters have degraded over time so color measurements will be off. Whether the DPT94 errors introduced during calibration would be observable while watching program material, my guess is probably not, especially with Cable TV.
Perhaps with reference quality BR.

We need a real discerning video expert (which I am not) to pass judgment here.
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post #272 of 315 Old 01-26-2010, 10:10 AM
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Out of curiosity I reran the C5 using windowed patterns and found no difference.

The ChromaPure built in pattern generator was used in all tests using automatic advance.

The W in the JPG title denotes the window pattern version
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post #273 of 315 Old 01-26-2010, 10:35 AM
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from what I understand, full screen vs window isn't an issue with LCD's, only with phosphor based displays like Plasma.

It looks like the C5 is reading lower in B and R on the grayscale measurement. It looks like you calibrated the grayscale flat with the DPT94 and then measured with the C5... have you tried it the other way?

Is the C5 accurate with grayscale right out of the box, or does it need to be profiled?

I see you are in La Jolla, if you are ever feeling crazy I would love to get some objective comparisons of my 2-year-old i1 D2 probe with the Chroma 5...

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post #274 of 315 Old 01-26-2010, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Quote:


from what I understand, full screen vs window isn't an issue with LCD's, only with phosphor based displays like Plasma.

True, because of APL effects. It was just an experiment

Quote:


It looks like the C5 is reading lower in B and R on the grayscale measurement. It looks like you calibrated the grayscale flat with the DPT94 and then measured with the C5... have you tried it the other way?

No, the Samsung's latest calibration was with the C5 and my earlier post was edited to point that out

Quote:


Is the C5 accurate with grayscale right out of the box, or does it need to be profiled?

The C5 comes with NIST certification and does not need profiling. Like all trimistulous meters it would require periodic recertification due to filter aging

Quote:


I see you are in La Jolla, if you are ever feeling crazy I would love to get some objective comparisons of my 2-year-old i1 D2 probe with the Chroma 5.

You are welcome to visit here, but how to do that comparison. HCFR supports the D2 but not the C5 and I do not have a license for the D2.
If you have CalMAN that would work since CalMAN licenses by meter type and the latest version would allow the C5 and the D2

..

You, and any one else in San Diego, is welcome to visit me and discuss (or debate) the merits of Audio/Video Science.

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post #275 of 315 Old 01-26-2010, 11:32 AM
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hmmm, I didn't realize HCFR doesn't support the C5. I use HCFR with my D2.....

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post #276 of 315 Old 01-27-2010, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

so when it "goes bad", it goes REALLY bad? Like visibly obvious, not just something you can measure when comparing to a "reference" probe?

Thankfully, I live in San Diego so I have a pretty natural temperature- and humidity-controlled environment

From what I've read it's almost always the i1 D2/LT's ability to measure red that drifts or deteriorates over time.

My 1 year old i1 LT used to make my computer displays look excellent with the Match auto-correction software. Now it just makes everything horribly pink because of the red over-compensation.

I have a brand new JVC RS15 pj with the infamous wide-gamut "oversaturated primaries." A quick test of the primary colors with HCFR using my i1 LT shows the blue and green coordinates far outside of the REC.709 triangle as expected, but red is mistakenly detected as well within the triangle.

I live in Taiwan which is terribly hot and humid in the Summer. That could explain the early demise of my i1 LT. I guess cool dry storage is essential.
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post #277 of 315 Old 01-27-2010, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by j5627429 View Post

From what I've read it's almost always the i1 D2/LT's ability to measure red that drifts or deteriorates over time.

My 1 year old i1 LT used to make my computer displays look excellent with the Match auto-correction software. Now it just makes everything horribly pink because of the red over-compensation.

I have a brand new JVC RS15 pj with the infamous wide-gamut "oversaturated primaries." A quick test of the primary colors with HCFR using my i1 LT shows the blue and green coordinates far outside of the REC.709 triangle as expected, but red is mistakenly detected as well within the triangle.

I live in Taiwan which is terribly hot and humid in the Summer. That could explain the early demise of my i1 LT. I guess cool dry storage is essential.

Interesting you should say that... I just got my LT replaced (new one arriving tomorrow) due a pink grayscale on my laptop with i1 Match. The meter that was replaced was just over 7 months old. However, the pink was not horrible but rather slightly distracting. I wonder if it would have eventually become as bad you described.


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post #278 of 315 Old 01-27-2010, 11:47 PM
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if you still have the old one, I would love to see some comparative data of how far off the old one has drifted relative to the new one.

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post #279 of 315 Old 01-28-2010, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

if you still have the old one, I would love to see some comparative data of how far off the old one has drifted relative to the new one.

Well, it was a no-charge warranty replacement so I had to send them the old one first. However, I did do one last calibration on my B650 LCD before returning it and got my dE's 1.20 and lower across the 20% to 100% range. I will re-calibrate my TV when my new one arrives today and then post both .chc files here so you can see the difference both in pre-cal and in offsets/gains post-cal.

There is still one detail that makes this comparison somewhat less valuable and that is inter-probe variability. How can you be sure whether the difference is due to meter drift or inter-probe variability?


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post #280 of 315 Old 01-28-2010, 09:50 AM
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I will re-calibrate my TV when my new one arrives today

noooo!!!

we are trying to test inter-probe variability/drift, so don't recalibrate right away! since you just calibrated with the old probe, what you should to first is take a full MEASUREMENT with the new probe (grayscale + primaries/secondaries) using the settings that you ended up with from the calibration with the old probe, and see how different the results are than those of the old (assumedly defective) probe. Then recalibrate....

since you don't have an independent "reference" probe you can't know which of the two is more "correct", you are going to just have to assume that the new one is accurate for now... so all you can really measure is the difference between the two.

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post #281 of 315 Old 01-28-2010, 11:20 AM
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I meant I would post three .chc files: old meter post-cal, new meter pre-cal, new meter post-cal w/ setting changes. However, I didn't measure primaries and secondaries with the old meter since I use blue-only mode with auto color space. Below are my old post-cal files... still haven't received the new meter yet.

 

WB_Movie_Warm1_LN32B650.zip 4.271484375k . file

 

LN32B650_WB_Movie_Basic_Settings_DEFAULTS.zip 7.52734375k . file


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post #282 of 315 Old 01-28-2010, 11:21 AM
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excellent

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post #283 of 315 Old 01-28-2010, 03:49 PM
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Just got the meter... with a pleasant suprise. I sent them my LT and got a 2! The meter says 2 on it and is Rev. B (the old one said LT and was Rev. A) and the i1 Match software includes advanced mode, which the LT didn't.

Will post my results as soon as I get a chance to measure and then recalibrate.

 

WB Movie Warm1 LN32B650 New Meter Pre-Cal.zip 4.30078125k . file


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post #284 of 315 Old 01-28-2010, 07:31 PM
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batpig,

FWIW, I bought a Eye-One Display almost 2 years to calibrate our first HDTV with HCFR. I've re-calibrated that same display each year (a total of 3 times) since including a few weeks ago - and each time the color gamut (xyY) measured identically to the initial calibration. Grayscale measured the same as well since a year ago's calibration. I don't have the older calibration files saved to share - but in my mind, this tells me that my meter at least has not drifted at all. I keep it stored in it's original packaging inside my entertainment center and I live in a mostly dry environment except for the brief period of summer humidity - but the air conditioning tends to keep the air from getting too moist inside during that time.

cheers,


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post #285 of 315 Old 01-28-2010, 10:59 PM
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PZ80U - interesting, looks like red/green are still on in the grayscale but your blue is out of whack across the board. So (assuming the new meter is accurate) your old probe was measuring the blue too low in grayscale... and it looks like the error is pretty systematic (5% hot all the way across).

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post #286 of 315 Old 01-29-2010, 07:59 AM
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Another comparison.
The CIE data is missing for some reason. Am very new to CalMAN and still have to learn how to customize the reporting

For details on the calibration look here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2944

The Chroma 5 is 3 weeks old and the DPT94 is 5 years old.
Am now looking at profiling the DPT 94 against the Chroma 5.

Experimented with custom layouts, still rough, but did get the CIE data in there. See last 2 attachements.

 

LH90 V2.pdf 131.677734375k . file

 

DPT94-full.pdf 133.9755859375k . file

 

DPT94.pdf 100.23046875k . file

 

LH90-CIE.pdf 156.7275390625k . file

 

DTP94-CIE.pdf 120.7353515625k . file

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post #287 of 315 Old 01-29-2010, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Another comparison.
The CIE data is missing for some reason. Am very new to CalMAN and still have to learn how to customize the reporting

For details on the calibration look here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2944

The Chroma 5 is 3 weeks old and the DPT94 is 5 years old.
Am now looking at profiling the DPT 94 against the Chroma 5.

You need to be careful in profiling a tristim against another tristim. The profile process is more designed for profile a tristim against a spectro. That is essentially how a tristim is calibrated in the lab or at the factory.

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post #288 of 315 Old 01-29-2010, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

You need to be careful in profiling a tristim against another tristim. The profile process is more designed for profile a tristim against a spectro. That is essentially how a tristim is calibrated in the lab or at the factory.

Yes, I know. It was to be an exercise in learning CalMAN.
Considering how well the DPT94 stands up it it is probably not necessary anyhow. Plus, the DPT94 will only be used to calibrate my computer monitors with the bundled MonacoXrite Pro software which has an excellent workflow for that purpose and is easy to use.

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post #289 of 315 Old 01-29-2010, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Yes, I know. It was to be an exercise in learning CalMAN.
Considering how well the DPT94 stands up it it is probably not necessary anyhow. Plus, the DPT94 will only be used to calibrate my computer monitors with the bundled MonacoXrite Pro software which has an excellent workflow for that purpose and is easy to use.

Sounds like a great exercise then for learning more about calibration.

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post #290 of 315 Old 01-29-2010, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

PZ80U - interesting, looks like red/green are still on in the grayscale but your blue is out of whack across the board. So (assuming the new meter is accurate) your old probe was measuring the blue too low in grayscale... and it looks like the error is pretty systematic (5% hot all the way across).

Just wanted to mention the Y readings were too low since the meter had been sitting in an cold UPS truck all day long (despite warming the meter on-screen for 30 mins with a 100% white full field displayed). After a while, the White Level, Black Level, and Average Gamma all matched the old meter. I had issues with a kink in the blue tracking of the grayscale between 30% and 40% and that's why I didn't post my results. I'll be doing a second attempt tonight with some changes made to gamma, contrast, and backlight, which will hopefully resolve that issue.

So, ignore any Y changes between the old meter post-cal and new meter pre-cal.


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post #291 of 315 Old 01-29-2010, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Sounds like a great exercise then for learning more about calibration.

Not exactly a novice at calibration as I explained in the ChromaPure vs CalMan thread, excerpt here:

Quote:


As an enthusiast who started in 2004 with the MonacosysXrite Pro SW/DPT94 meter bundle to calibrate Computer monitors and gravitated to Color HCFR for TV calibration I can attest to what has been mentioned in these posts.

The chief frustration is not the software but the availability or lack of user accessible controls for the TV.

Calibration software whether HCFR, CalMAN or Chromapure have some learning curve but a few hours of practice will suffice with any of these.

From the Vizio 52GLF to the (old) Sharp 37D5U to my current LG 55LH90 it is the myriad of settings that may or not be there that confounds the novice calibrator.

The old Vizio had little in the way of calibration controls in the picture modes while the LG has these in abundance.

It takes a decent meter to find out what the picture settings do. LD on/off, Blacklevel-low/high, xvYCC on/off, color gamut-standard/wide, Gamma-low/medium/high and so on.

Yes this somewhat OT but the point is that a decent meter is an essential tool to measure the effect of those picture settings and not have to fly blind.

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post #292 of 315 Old 01-29-2010, 05:23 PM
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post #293 of 315 Old 02-03-2010, 07:00 AM
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I've just run greyscale and gamut measurements on my 9G Kuro with an EyeOne Pro. The display had been previously calibrated with an EyeOne LT.

On top of the red push (which is a well known issue with the EyeOne LT on 9G Kuros), I found blue a tad too high throughout the greyscale and a HUGE difference in light output (EyeOne LT was reading 140 cd/m2, EyeOne Pro reads 159 cd/m2).

The EyeOne LT wasn't exactly new, though it was borrowed from a friend so I have no idea how old it actually is.

Do you think these are consistent (realistic) differences?

For the record, dE went from below 1 to above 4 along the whole greyscale.

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post #294 of 315 Old 02-06-2010, 04:59 PM
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I recently purchased these meters new and getting different results from both meters on the same display, a Kuro 111FD. I am using the AVCHD disc window patterns. I ran each set of tests on the same night. Here is what I know:

i1 Pro: Blue is off in grayscale measurement as well as gamut. The gamut reading for blue shows a Delta E of 3.46 and Delta C of 10.99. Average gamma is 2.16. Average color temperature using just 30 and 80 IRE is 6330.

Chroma 5: Blue readings show less errors in grayscale measurements and well as gamut. Gamut reading for blue shows a Delta E of 1.15 and Delta C of 0.45. Green is more off on the Chroma 5 readings with a Delta E of 2.8, a Delta C of 6.07, and Delta H of 6.77. Average gamma is 2.18. Average color temperature using just 30 and 80 IRE is 6539.5.

The point of this post is this: How can I determine which meter is correct?

 

C5Grayscale.pdf 81.7041015625k . file

 

C5Summary.pdf 92.740234375k . file

 

i1ProGamut.pdf 60.4287109375k . file

 

i1ProGrayscale.pdf 83.94921875k . file

 

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post #295 of 315 Old 02-06-2010, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon View Post

I recently purchased these meters new and getting different results from both meters on the same display, a Kuro 111FD. I am using the AVCHD disc window patterns. I ran each set of tests on the same night. Here is what I know:

i1 Pro: Blue is off in grayscale measurement as well as gamut. The gamut reading for blue shows a Delta E of 3.46 and Delta C of 10.99. Average gamma is 2.16. Average color temperature using just 30 and 80 IRE is 6330.

Chroma 5: Blue readings show less errors in grayscale measurements and well as gamut. Gamut reading for blue shows a Delta E of 1.15 and Delta C of 0.45. Green is more off on the Chroma 5 readings with a Delta E of 2.8, a Delta C of 6.07, and Delta H of 6.77. Average gamma is 2.18. Average color temperature using just 30 and 80 IRE is 6539.5.

The point of this post is this: How can I determine which meter is correct?

Wow! This is one tough.

I was under the impression that the C5 was supposedly giving some problems with 50-100 IRE due to the 9G PWM. Also the blue DE that is typical for the 9G Kuros are normally ~3. I suggest you get in touch with the folks from Spectracal with ur results to see what they say about this.

The guideline was that the EyeOnes were pretty accurate for colors and the C5s were supposedly better for luminance for low light levels. However, they shd agree with one another better than this at the higher IREs of gray.
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post #296 of 315 Old 02-06-2010, 08:19 PM
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More information is needed.

Is this a NIST Chroma 5, a Chroma 5 before NIST certificates were available form X-Rite or is this a "Enhanced" Chroma 5 from SpectraCal.

Did you choose Plasma or CRT in CalMAN when using the Chroma 5?

What is the calibration date of the I1 Pro?

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post #297 of 315 Old 02-07-2010, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by turbe View Post

More information is needed.

Is this a NIST Chroma 5, a Chroma 5 before NIST certificates were available form X-Rite or is this a "Enhanced" Chroma 5 from SpectraCal.

CalMAN Enhanced C5 from SpectraCal

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Did you choose Plasma or CRT in CalMAN when using the Chroma 5?

Plasma
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What is the calibration date of the I1 Pro?

The X-Rite Certificate of Performance has a signature date of December 28, 2009. I do not see a calibration date specified, but I do see a 'Next Calibration Date' of March 28, 2011.
Update: CalMAN shows a calibration date of November 30, 2009
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post #298 of 315 Old 02-07-2010, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Amon View Post

I recently purchased these meters new and getting different results from both meters on the same display, a Kuro 111FD. . . .
The point of this post is this: How can I determine which meter is correct?

The differences you are seeing of 0.003-0.005 are to be expected. They are not large. The only way to know which is more accurate is to compare both against a reference instrument. Unfortunately, such instruments are quite expensive.

You could try using each instrument to calibrate a 70% white window to x0.313, y0.329 and then just use your eyes to try and determine which seemed more neutral. The human eye is quite sensitive to even small changes in the white point. If you have an optical comparator (e.g., a Kodak white card) then this is even more likely to offer benefit.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
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post #299 of 315 Old 02-07-2010, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Amon View Post

I recently purchased these meters new and getting different results from both meters on the same display, a Kuro 111FD.

The point of this post is this: How can I determine which meter is correct?

All things being equal I would trust the i1Pro on a Plasma more than a Chroma5. You can always profile the Chroma5 to the i1Pro as well.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
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post #300 of 315 Old 02-07-2010, 01:22 PM
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My Enhanced Chroma5 has been problematic on plasmas. Whenever it disagrees with my i1Pro, what the i1Pro says always looks more accurate to my eye. If I were you, I would trust the i1Pro.

ISF/THX calibrator, HDTVbyChadB
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