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post #451 of 985 Old 04-22-2008, 05:39 AM
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The gamma options change the way the gamma value is calculated.

Since "gamma" is the exponent of the luminance function there are a couple of different methods that can be used to calculate it. Some take into the account that "black" is variable from display to display, others do not.
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post #452 of 985 Old 04-22-2008, 07:56 AM
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nicolasb,

Here is something from the original HCFR thread that I often refer to with respect to gamma:

Quote:
Originally Posted by laric View Post

Gamma Calculation Methods

To have a properly calibrated projector it is required to achieve the best luminance ratio between different parts of displayed picture.

This very characteristic is commonly reduced to a numeric value: Gamma.
The higher Gamma is (above 2.22) the more contrasted image you'll get but you may then have poor black level in dark scenes.
Lowering the Gamma (below 2.22) allows an increase in black details, but picture can then be too bright.

This ends by a compromise in settings that calibrator should achieve, it depends on projection conditions (room, lights...) as well as screen, source and, obviously, projector characteristics.

2.22 Gamma is usually the best compromise and generally admitted as reference value.

The default Gamma computing method we use (second option below) is the generally admitted one (ColorFacts, ICC generation softwares, etc... see references below).

Anyway, there are many passionate debates on the "best" way to compute Gamma.
That is why we introduce different scheme in v1.21. These options are for the one wanting to go a bit further or unsatisfied by default settings. We can later on pursue that very debate, but so far we think it is not required to go more in depth to be able to calibrate a projector.

1) Display gamma

The gamma is compute in light to human eyes perception.
After approximation brightness (L) is expressed according to the signal (V) using the equation:
[1] L = V^gamma

Standards recommend to us a 2.5 Gamma target (2.45 after math) in this mode.

2) Display Gamma with Black Compensation (Default)

In practice one can never achieve an absolute black and to properly setup a projector (or screen) it is necessary to take in account of the black you can really obtain.

This is usually done by computing Gamma after removing the "absolute" black from every measure.

3) Camera Gamma (Standard Offset)

To have an accurate reproduction, some interpretations say that you must apply a symmetrical treatment to the encoding one. The reference equation being: [2] Y = ((V+offset)/(1+offset))^gamma

The "offset" is a parameter use at black encoding stage (and reproduction using this method). It's value is 0.099 on all video standard. (0.055 in sRGB)

4) Optimized (Regression)

This calculation method is based on the fact absolute black recorded by camera is the absolute black projector can produce.
But offset in standard is roughly for 200:1 contrast ratio, a lot lower than current ration projector can achieve.
The optimized method tries to find the Offset AND Gamma parameters that best match the measures, black included.

Pictures as contrasted as in method 2 can be achieved using this method with even a better black details level.
But the compute method -- and so the resulting projector settings -- are more dependant of proper and accurate low level probes readings.

References:
[Poynton] Gamma FAQ
(Chapters 4 - what is lightness, and 6 - what is gamma correction)
[Pascale] A review of RGB color spaces
(Paragraph 2.1.6 gamma and Table 5 definition of different RGB color spaces)
[sRGB] A standard default color space for the Internet
(Paragraph "Gamma and the desired CRT gamma of 2.2")

--ColorHCFR Team


-Greg
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post #453 of 985 Old 04-22-2008, 04:40 PM
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First time posting, so please be patient.

New to HFCR, using it with an i1 Display 2. Measurements on a Panasonic TH-42PX75U gave me very different grayscale readings for Cinema, Standard and Vivid, with Vivid being the most accurate. But I understand from these forums that Cinema gives you the best gamma on this set.

I've been "training" myself on a Sharp 13" LCD, learning to use the service menu for it, but the Panasonic service menu is very cryptic in comparison. Since I'm not quite ready to use the Panasonic service menu, which should I prioritize? Gamma or grayscale?
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post #454 of 985 Old 04-23-2008, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht View Post

nicolasb,

Here is something from the original HCFR thread that I often refer to with respect to gamma:

Thanks. The original poster of that clearly had a rather tenuous connection to the English language, but I dare say he speaks English better than I speak whatever his native tongue is, so I guess I can't complain.

Sounds like I should stick to "Display Gamma with black compensation" then?
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post #455 of 985 Old 04-25-2008, 03:34 PM
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I'm finally getting a chance to try HCFR v2.x. I installed 2.0.1 and tried doing some readings with my SpyderII. The results looked terrible -- then I remembered my S2 is very inaccurate. I had an approximate calibration matrix I used with V1.x, but I wanted to use the v2.x ability to calculate a calibration matrix against a standard. I have a Minolta TV2150 colorimeter which seems to be fairly accurate, so I'm using that as the standard.

But I'm confused by the process. I read through the help and got more confused. I dug through this thread and found some pointers that helped. I've done this:

* First I tried creating a calibration file with SpyderII as the sensor, but that didn't work. So I created a new workspace using "Simulated Sensor" and skipped through the parameters and calibration. Then I did Advanced -> Calibration File -> Build manually using reference colorimeter. I measured R, G, B, & W with my Minolta, manually entered the xyY values into the "Colors from reference colorimeter" dialog, and saved it as Minolta.thc. That seems to be available as a "calibration file" when I create a new workspace, but I'm not sure what it's for. (Reading more in the help, I gather it's only intended to be used with the HCFR sensor, with a different calibration file for each projector?)

* Next I opened a new workspace, measured primaries/secondaries with the Minolta, manually entered them into the workspace, marked it as a "Reference Measure," and saved it as MinoltaCal.chc.

* I opened another workspace and measured primaries & secondaries on the S2. Then I chose Advanced -> XYZ Coordinates Adjustment Matrix -> Compute conversion matrix from reference document. This computed a matrix that made the S2 readings match the Minolta. I saved this workspace as Spyder2cal.chc. Then I went into Advanced -> XYZ Coordinates Adjustment Matrix -> Manually Edit XYZ conversion matrix and saved the matrix as Spyder2cal.mhc.

Is that correct so far?

Now how do I use my conversion matrix? I could open the MinoltaCal.chc file each time I create a new workspace, and re-do the "calculate conversion matrix" step, but it would be easier open my Spyder2cal.chc workspace (which already has the conversion matrix in it), do a "Save as" into another file, and take my measurements in there. The only other way I see to do it is to create a new workspace, do the Advanced -> XYZ Coordinates Adjustment Matrix -> Manually Edit XYZ conversion matrix step, and load my Spyder2cal.mhc matrix. Is that how it's intended to be used? Or is there some way to apply a calibration file to the sensor?

I hope this S2 is usable. In addition to being way off in colors, it's indicating crazy foot-lambert levels. E.g. when the Minolta says 3.4 ftL at 80% white, the S2 says 17.23 ftL! The XYZ conversion matrix corrects it to the Minolta readings, so **if** the S2 reads "linearly," I should be OK, but.... (And I don't know for sure that the Minolta is accurate either, but I'm sure it's a lot better than the S2!!)

Thanks,
Gary
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post #456 of 985 Old 04-29-2008, 03:10 PM
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Does anybody knows if there's a way to increase the maximum measures in the spreadshhet?
Default seems to be 250.....
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post #457 of 985 Old 04-29-2008, 07:34 PM
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For any New comers to HCFR or who have no clue what calibration is or how to do it
A forum member Kal is in the process of finishing up a tutorial called

Calibration For Dummies

and its based on the HCFR program and using the Spyder 2 and Eye One Display 2. with more
emphasis using the spyder2 colorimeter .

Athanasios


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Love this CRT addiction !!!


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post #458 of 985 Old 04-30-2008, 05:02 AM
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Hi, I have made a THC w/ the Eye-one as reference. I'll post the files here.

Screen: Goosystems, Digital Grey, 80"
Source: PC w/ ATI HD3870 + VideoEqualizer
Equipment: Optoma HD70 + HCFR s/w + HCFR-probe (http://www.minhembio.com/lovek/172061/) + GretagMacbeth i1 Display 2.
Conditions: Totaly dark room, "calibrated" projector (D65), Eco mode.


Best regards L. Kull from Sweden.

Sweden
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post #459 of 985 Old 04-30-2008, 05:05 AM
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For Optoma HD70 and HCFR-probe

 

Optoma HD70 - DrLove.zip 3.0849609375k . file

Sweden
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post #460 of 985 Old 05-01-2008, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz View Post

I had an approximate calibration matrix I used with V1.x, but I wanted to use the v2.x ability to calculate a calibration matrix against a standard.

Hello? Anybody? Can someone clarify the process for computing and using correction matrices?
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post #461 of 985 Old 05-11-2008, 01:58 AM
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I am trying to do a greyscale calibration on a Toshiba CRT RP 57HX84. I am using HCFR 2.0.1 and an eye-one display LT. I get slow measures when using 60 ire or above grey scale windows. It takes HCFR 2.0.1. 5 to 10 minutes to post a measure. My Spyder II is 10x times faster. Is this normal for the display LT Probe???
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post #462 of 985 Old 05-11-2008, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrym View Post

I am trying to do a greyscale calibration on a Toshiba CRT RP 57HX84. I am using HCFR 2.0.1 and an eye-one display LT. I get slow measures when using 60 ire or above grey scale windows. It takes HCFR 2.0.1. 5 to 10 minutes to post a measure. My Spyder II is 10x times faster. Is this normal for the display LT Probe???

No, I have the same probe and it works just fine. Even in the low measurments (20 and 10IRE) it takes up to 5 secs.
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post #463 of 985 Old 05-11-2008, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrym View Post

I am trying to do a greyscale calibration on a Toshiba CRT RP 57HX84. I am using HCFR 2.0.1 and an eye-one display LT. I get slow measures when using 60 ire or above grey scale windows. It takes HCFR 2.0.1. 5 to 10 minutes to post a measure. My Spyder II is 10x times faster. Is this normal for the display LT Probe???

I assume you're calibrating the sensor in HCFR first? Are you attaching the sensor directly to the screen? I am using the same setup as well and the issue I've run into is the sensor will basically go to sleep, perhaps this is what you're experiencing as well.

A few times I've actually had to stop the program, shutdown the service process, unplug the sensor from the laptop and restart the program. I'm using a laptop with Vista so I'm not sure if that is a factor, I certainly would not be surprised if it IS having something to do with the issue (unless you're running XP then it may rule it out).

On my CRT RPTV the 50,60, and 70 IRE measures always seem to take the longest, sometimes up to 30sec though. Is it possible that it's waiting for the readings to stabilize before moving on? For the small investment in the sensor and the free HCFR software, the results I've achieved have more way more than worth it.

Could it be better with one of the pro touring calibrators working on it, absolutely. Is the satisfaction of learning and doing it myself worth it, most definitely!
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post #464 of 985 Old 05-11-2008, 01:15 PM
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More info:
1. Sensor is calibrated first in HCFR.
2. I tape the sensor to screen.
3. Display LT is rev. A
I am running windows XP and using an USB extension cable. Yes, the display LT reads fast for 10, 20 ire mesaures, and the sensor does seem to go to sleep for the higher ire measures (60 and above). I have to play with Display LT sensor and HCFR a bit more to get faster measures in the 60 or higher ire measures. Thanks for sharing your information.
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post #465 of 985 Old 05-11-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrym View Post

More info:
1. Sensor is calibrated first in HCFR.
2. I tape the sensor to screen.
3. Display LT is rev. A
I am running windows XP and using an USB extension cable. Yes, the display LT reads fast for 10, 20 ire mesaures, and the sensor does seem to go to sleep for the higher ire measures (60 and above). I have to play with Display LT sensor and HCFR a bit more to get faster measures in the 60 or higher ire measures. Thanks for sharing your information.

No problem,

I just made 5 passes (grayscale, primaries and secondaries) and on 50 and 60 IRE it took the longest (about 38 secs or so), but at least it didn't lock up on me today. I'm not sure what can be done really to improve the read times in that mid range as the lows and highs go pretty quick. Perhaps some Eye-One experts can way in here and shed some light on this issue.
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post #466 of 985 Old 05-11-2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCavTanker View Post

I just made 5 passes (grayscale, primaries and secondaries) and on 50 and 60 IRE it took the longest (about 38 secs or so), but at least it didn't lock up on me today. I'm not sure what can be done really to improve the read times in that mid range as the lows and highs go pretty quick. Perhaps some Eye-One experts can way in here and shed some light on this issue.

What Eye-One mode do you have selected in HCFR?

Measuring on direct view LCDs and older CRTs, I have never experienced slowness on readings of the mid-range amplitude patterns when doing a grayscale measure. Typically, the lower end is slower as the overall light output drops. But at 50% and above, it usually is like one or two seconds for each reading. It seems odd that you are getting such delays. Are you also using a USB extension cable? If you are, perhaps you can try it without the extension cable since that could cause problems similar to what you're experiencing - although I don't know why that would only affect the mid-range readings.

hope this helps,


--tom
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post #467 of 985 Old 05-11-2008, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasl View Post

What Eye-One mode do you have selected in HCFR?

Measuring on direct view LCDs and older CRTs, I have never experienced slowness on readings of the mid-range amplitude patterns when doing a grayscale measure. Typically, the lower end is slower as the overall light output drops. But at 50% and above, it usually is like one or two seconds for each reading. It seems odd that you are getting such delays. Are you also using a USB extension cable? If you are, perhaps you can try it without the extension cable since that could cause problems similar to what you're experiencing - although I don't know why that would only affect the mid-range readings.

hope this helps,


--tom


I am using the LCD setting as indicated in the Grayscale for Dummies guide on CurtPalme forum. Appearantly the CRT setting is only for direct view (tube) tvs , something to do with scan rate detection. Anyways, I have read posts by people that used the CRT setting for rear pro tv's and caused all sorts of problems. I am not using a USB extension cable (actually a shortfall of the device, it's a VERY short, hardwired cable, I wish it was much longer)! Well, at least myself and the other poster are having the EXACT same issue, so there is something in common, what I don't know

Thanks.
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post #468 of 985 Old 05-11-2008, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCavTanker View Post

I am using the LCD setting as indicated in the Grayscale for Dummies guide on CurtPalme forum.

I believe that is the right setting. Pretty strange. What calibration dvd are you using? I can't think of anything else that might cause this other than some weird software glitch. About the only thing I can report under XP is that typically when I first plug the sensor in, I have to unplug and re-plug again to get XP to recognize it and to get HCFR to see it. After that it works fine.

cheers,


--tom
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post #469 of 985 Old 05-11-2008, 04:45 PM
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I am using LCD mode in HCFR to calibrate CRT RP and an USB extension cable. I try doing measures without using the USB extension cable. Hopefully it will be faster.
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post #470 of 985 Old 05-11-2008, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasl View Post

I believe that is the right setting. Pretty strange. What calibration dvd are you using? I can't think of anything else that might cause this other than some weird software glitch. About the only thing I can report under XP is that typically when I first plug the sensor in, I have to unplug and re-plug again to get XP to recognize it and to get HCFR to see it. After that it works fine.

cheers,


--tom

I'm using the AVS HD 709 disc (found on this site) with my PS3.
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post #471 of 985 Old 05-13-2008, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrym View Post

I am trying to do a greyscale calibration on a Toshiba CRT RP 57HX84. I am using HCFR 2.0.1 and an eye-one display LT. I get slow measures when using 60 ire or above grey scale windows. It takes HCFR 2.0.1. 5 to 10 minutes to post a measure. My Spyder II is 10x times faster. Is this normal for the display LT Probe???

Gerrym and excavtanker,

You may want to check what version of the eyeone.dll that you are using. Make sure that it is version 3.x.x. Mine is 3.3.1.115 and it appears that others have had similar problems to yours when using version 2.x.x of it

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014348

hope this helps,


--tom
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post #472 of 985 Old 05-13-2008, 05:40 PM
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thomasl,

Unfortunately I am running the exact same version as you. Maybe it's a CRT RPTV thing. Whatever it is it's repeatable, EVERY time on the 50-60-70 IRE measures.
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post #473 of 985 Old 05-13-2008, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCavTanker View Post

thomasl,

Unfortunately I am running the exact same version as you. Maybe it's a CRT RPTV thing. Whatever it is it's repeatable, EVERY time on the 50-60-70 IRE measures.

While my guess is that it won't make any difference unfortunately , you could try the newest dll found in version 3.6.2 of the iMatch software - just to eliminate that as a possibility.

cheers,


--tom
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post #474 of 985 Old 05-13-2008, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasl View Post

While my guess is that it won't make any difference unfortunately , you could try the newest dll found in version 3.6.2 of the iMatch software - just to eliminate that as a possibility.

cheers,


--tom

I'll try it this weekend, thanks!
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post #475 of 985 Old 05-14-2008, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Argh!!!

I've just discovered I was using HCFR with an old eyeone.dll, while having a newer one....

old version: 3.3.1.115 - 15/02/2006
new version: 3.4.0.131 - 03/07/2007

blutarsky,

since recently a few other people reported problems using an even older version (2.x.x.) - which were fixed upgrading to 3.x.x, I was wondering if you did any experiments to see if you got repeatably different (i.e. beyond normal variance) results with the 3.3.x DLL versus the newer 3.4.x?

Also, could the HCFR developers comment on which version of the EyeOne SDK/DLL that they use for development and testing? Are both versions above known to work properly with HCFR 2.0.1?

many thanks,


--tom
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post #476 of 985 Old 05-14-2008, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

Afaik, we use 3.4 but 3.3 should work properly anyway.

--Patrice

French speaking home theater
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post #477 of 985 Old 05-14-2008, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasl View Post

blutarsky,

since recently a few other people reported problems using an even older version (2.x.x.) - which were fixed upgrading to 3.x.x, I was wondering if you did any experiments to see if you got repeatably different (i.e. beyond normal variance) results with the 3.3.x DLL versus the newer 3.4.x?

Also, could the HCFR developers comment on which version of the EyeOne SDK/DLL that they use for development and testing? Are both versions above known to work properly with HCFR 2.0.1?

many thanks,


--tom

Thomas, thanks for getting into it.

That is an old post, since then i've been using the latest .dll.

I have an idea the problem is in the sensor with plasma screens, or with temperature fluctuations.

I'm waiting Wolfy's latest tests to definitelly understand the limits of the Display LT.

I have an idea but will keep my mouth shut until then!
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post #478 of 985 Old 05-14-2008, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laric View Post

Hello,

Afaik, we use 3.4 but 3.3 should work properly anyway.

--Patrice

Thanks Patrice. I've been using 3.3.1.115 but figured that I might do some experiments to see if any behavior changes if I upgrade to 3.4.0.131 - or perhaps I'm just looking for an excuse to tinker some more with my displays.

cheers,


--tom
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post #479 of 985 Old 05-14-2008, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Thomas, thanks for getting into it.

That is an old post, since then i've been using the latest .dll.

I have an idea the problem is in the sensor with plasma screens, or with temperature fluctuations.

I'm waiting Wolfy's latest tests to definitelly understand the limits of the Display LT.

I have an idea but will keep my mouth shut until then!


I sure hope what you're keeping quiet is not a known physical limitation of the device!
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post #480 of 985 Old 05-15-2008, 09:17 AM
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Could HCFR dump out an .icc file that could be used to correct the projector at the source (in the HTPC). Both mac and windows, its easy to tell them to use a .icc file for any display device. Wouldn't this be more accurate, not to mention faster and easier, than playing with buttons on the projector for hours? OK, not everyone uses an HTPC but it should be pretty straightforward to create that file. This is how Eye One Match does things.
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