ColorHCFR v2.0 Available... - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 985 Old 02-08-2009, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

You're right that if you press the button to take combined measures of the grayscale and primary/secondary color all in one run, HCFR assumes the white measure from the grayscale is the same as for the colors. If you take the measurements in two series, i.e., take the grayscale measures, and then press the separate button to take the primary/secondary measures, HCFR asks for a new white measure at the end of the color measures. So the delta E results will then be meaningful.

Thanks Bill. I guess I will stop using the combination measure. I assume there is no drawback to using the individual grayscale and color measures ?

Sean
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post #722 of 985 Old 02-08-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

Thanks Bill. I guess I will stop using the combination measure. I assume there is no drawback to using the individual grayscale and color measures ?

Nope. The only drawback is pressing two tool bar buttons instead of one, and taking the white measure a second time at 75% luma. When working on the color points, I frequently just take the primary measures until I get them as close as I can, then worry about taking both the primaries and secondaries together.
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post #723 of 985 Old 02-09-2009, 12:27 AM
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Sorry, been away for a long time, can someone spot the new features of the 2.1 version?
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post #724 of 985 Old 02-09-2009, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Sorry, been away for a long time, can someone spot the new features of the 2.1 version?

When they announced the new version on their home site, they wrote that there were very few changes, except for the correction of some bugs here and there, the biggest addition being the support of the Spyder3 probe. I had not been using the old version long enough to spot any of the bug fixes.
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post #725 of 985 Old 02-15-2009, 09:55 AM
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Do LCD TVs emit IR (infrared)? I am planning on building the HCFR Probe, but I see that it does not have an IR Filter. Does it need an IR filter for proper LCD use? Thanks.
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post #726 of 985 Old 02-15-2009, 07:45 PM
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Hello, couple of questions about ColorHCFR. Sorry if these are already covered, didn't have time to search through the various related threads.

1- I'm considering ColorHCFR with i1Display LT. I have a plasma TV (46" Panny 800U). I read on one of the threads that some SW have trouble selecting the correct internal table (e.g. CRT mode) that one would use to calibrate a plasma TV. As a consequence, the readings and final result don't come out right. Can anyone comment as to whether ColorHCFR with i1Display LT can in fact be configured properly to calibrate a plasma TV and if there are any known issues with this combination.

2- I'm also wondering whether it's worth it to calibrate since my set will only allow for a greyscale calibration, not a full color calibration (it doesn't have the controls for primary/secondary color points). Opinions on whether a greyscale-only calibration worth it?

Thanks!
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post #727 of 985 Old 02-15-2009, 09:20 PM
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Quote:


didn't have time to search through the various related threads

words sure to motivate someone to write an answer

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post #728 of 985 Old 02-16-2009, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblevin View Post

2- I'm also wondering whether it's worth it to calibrate since my set will only allow for a greyscale calibration, not a full color calibration (it doesn't have the controls for primary/secondary color points). Opinions on whether a greyscale-only calibration worth it?

Assuming that the probe and software will function correctly with your TV, then YES! You should definitely calibrate your TV. Unless you're lucky and got a perfect TV out of the box, calibrating just greyscale can make a tremendous difference, including tweaking Color and Tint. You should also decide whether you want to buy a probe, and buy CalMAN or download HCFR (I assume the latter since you're in this thread). There's a fair amount of learning to really do this right, but if you follow the Dummy's Guide you can get through it pretty easy. The other option is to hire a profressional calibrator that could charge more (or less) than the cost of a probe, will probably use a probe much better than whatever you may buy, and will certainly do a much better job. Typically they'll go into the service menu to make changes that us mere mortals are hesitant to make. I'm not a professional calibrator, so I'll leave it at that. They can present their abilities better than me. I just want to point out that calibrating a TV [EDIT] without a CMS is definitely worth it. BTW, I use Display LT and HCFR and am very happy with the results.
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post #729 of 985 Old 02-16-2009, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jblevin View Post

Hello, couple of questions about ColorHCFR. Sorry if these are already covered, didn't have time to search through the various related threads.

1- I'm considering ColorHCFR with i1Display LT. I have a plasma TV (46" Panny 800U). I read on one of the threads that some SW have trouble selecting the correct internal table (e.g. CRT mode) that one would use to calibrate a plasma TV. As a consequence, the readings and final result don't come out right. Can anyone comment as to whether ColorHCFR with i1Display LT can in fact be configured properly to calibrate a plasma TV and if there are any known issues with this combination.

2- I'm also wondering whether it's worth it to calibrate since my set will only allow for a greyscale calibration, not a full color calibration (it doesn't have the controls for primary/secondary color points). Opinions on whether a greyscale-only calibration worth it?

Thanks!

The ColorHCFR has a setting called Eye One Display - Plasma and it is assumed you will use that.

The creators of CalMAN will tell you that ColorHCFR can't use this meter with a plasma as well on Color HCFR as you can with CalMAN. This is because they say they have access to lower levels of the meter or some such thing as they are partners with XRITE. Probably true that they have access to some lower level of the meter but no one has proven with numbers or readings where CalMAN takes different readings than ColorHCFR using this probe on Plasmas. They appear to take the same readings over all. So I don't really know how important that is. All comparisons I have seen have them showing the meters numbers within it's design limitations/error envelope.

That said, the D2 must be warmed on the screen for 30 minutes with moving images and then a calibrate meter routine must be done before you begin to calibrate the set. Read the tutorial here on AVS by Tom Huffman and the dummies guide over here...

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

As for if you should calibrate a PZ800 with a D2? I would perhaps only benchmark it. Honestly? The D2 will read color temp within 250K. The TV in THX mode will likely read within that of the 6500K line with a pro meter. So if it seemed a little off one way or the other, you might make it worse by up to 250K. The colors cannot be changed as you know. So if anything, I would only use the D2 to adjust brightness and contrast and then benchmark the TV for gamma and color temp.

The TV is that close out of the box that I am betting that you need a more expensive probe and more experience calibrating to get it closer. My 2 cents.

C.

Panasonic 42" Plasma TH42-PZ85U
Panasonic Blueray Player DMP-BD35
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post #730 of 985 Old 02-16-2009, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jzig View Post

Do LCD TVs emit IR (infrared)? I am planning on building the HCFR Probe, but I see that it does not have an IR Filter. Does it need an IR filter for proper LCD use? Thanks.


I'm not sure about IR from an LCD specifically, but the HCFR Probe is said to definitely need to be calibrated vs another known calibrated probe... ideally on the display it's intended to be used on. I've built one, and borrowed a probe from someone to calibrate against, and plan to calibrate against this probe on as large a variety of displays as I can get my hands on, to try and see how much it really varies, but will not be any guarantees that it will be accurate on any other model display... the creators of the software include cal files with the software for some projectors, and it's been rumored that on their French forum some people have at least speculated about sharing cal files for other displays, but since I don't speak French I've never tried to search it... I'd love if someone who did speak French could find more details, or if more people had these probes on here and wanted to start compiling a collective database of cal files...

-Greg
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post #731 of 985 Old 02-16-2009, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by glaufman View Post

I'm not sure about IR from an LCD specifically, but the HCFR Probe is said to definitely need to be calibrated vs another known calibrated probe... ideally on the display it's intended to be used on. I've built one, and borrowed a probe from someone to calibrate against, and plan to calibrate against this probe on as large a variety of displays as I can get my hands on,

I'm not so much interested in getting an accurate color temp as I am in getting a good gray scale. I intend to pick something that I like as white, and then create a gray scale that will track my version of white. Will the HCFR probe need to be calibrated for me to achieve that?

Do you use yours on an LCD? Do you use an IR filter?
Thanks for responding.
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post #732 of 985 Old 02-16-2009, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jzig View Post

I'm not so much interested in getting an accurate color temp as I am in getting a good gray scale.

The only way to get a good gray scale is to have an accurate color temp. If you're going to just randomly pick something you like, you might as well save your time and not worry about HCFR or building your own probe. If you're going to do, it why not do it right?
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post #733 of 985 Old 02-16-2009, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by cvearl View Post

The ColorHCFR has a setting called Eye One Display - Plasma and it is assumed you will use that.

The creators of CalMAN will tell you that ColorHCFR can't use this meter with a plasma as well on Color HCFR as you can with CalMAN. This is because they say they have access to lower levels of the meter or some such thing as they are partners with XRITE. Probably true that they have access to some lower level of the meter but no one has proven with numbers or readings where CalMAN takes different readings than ColorHCFR using this probe on Plasmas. They appear to take the same readings over all. So I don't really know how important that is. All comparisons I have seen have them showing the meters numbers within it's design limitations/error envelope.

That said, the D2 must be warmed on the screen for 30 minutes with moving images and then a calibrate meter routine must be done before you begin to calibrate the set. Read the tutorial here on AVS by Tom Huffman and the dummies guide over here...

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Thanks. I was wondering about this: It says leave it warm up on the screen for 30 min. with plasmas. But then, for the calibrate meter routine, normally you're supposed to put it in complete darkness (e.g. inside a bag or on a flat, dark surface). So for the plasma case after the 30 min. do you take it off, calibrate meter, and put it back in place, or do you leave it on the set and turn off the set and calibrate meter with the set off though perhaps not totally immersed in darkness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvearl View Post

As for if you should calibrate a PZ800 with a D2? I would perhaps only benchmark it. Honestly? The D2 will read color temp within 250K. The TV in THX mode will likely read within that of the 6500K line with a pro meter. So if it seemed a little off one way or the other, you might make it worse by up to 250K. The colors cannot be changed as you know. So if anything, I would only use the D2 to adjust brightness and contrast and then benchmark the TV for gamma and color temp.

The TV is that close out of the box that I am betting that you need a more expensive probe and more experience calibrating to get it closer. My 2 cents.

C.

Thanks, will think about that. Note, one thing I have noticed is that THX definitely looks different than it did some weeks back. I think the set changes slightly over time, esp. after the first 100-200 hours, but even after that I'm noticing a slight change. The phosphors cure / break in during the first several weeks right? THX is a bit darker now than it was a couple weeks ago. So in other words - they provide THX-certified color accuracy from the factory, but it's not going to be THX accurate after only a few months. Makes me wonder how valuble THX mode really is. Also gives me more incentive to go ahead and try the greyscale calibration.
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post #734 of 985 Old 02-17-2009, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jzig View Post

I'm not so much interested in getting an accurate color temp as I am in getting a good gray scale. I intend to pick something that I like as white, and then create a gray scale that will track my version of white. Will the HCFR probe need to be calibrated for me to achieve that?

The calibration procedure uses both white and black as reference points, so I would think yes, even if you just want to make whatever errors are there in the white point you "like" flat across the board, you'll still need to cal the probe... I could be wrong on that one...or you may be satisfied by letting it cal the probe without a reference, but personally I don't see the point of going through cal process with an instrument that's giving questionable results...

Quote:


Do you use yours on an LCD? Do you use an IR filter?
Thanks for responding.

Funny you should ask... I just calibrated mine last night vs a probe I borrowed, on my laptop's LCD... no IR filter on the HCFR probe, some sort of filter built into the commercial one I borrowed... I then took a luminance curve with both probes, and I'm disappointed that they don't track each other better in the midtones... you can see the files over in the HCFR (post your files here) thread... I have another idea for figuring out which one will be more accurate, i.e. for introducing something to compare them against, but that's going to be time consuming and a PITA, and the difference bothers me...

-Greg
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post #735 of 985 Old 02-17-2009, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

The only way to get a good gray scale is to have an accurate color temp. If you're going to just randomly pick something you like, you might as well save your time and not worry about HCFR or building your own probe. If you're going to do, it why not do it right?

Good question, I'll try to answer.

My tv, with factory color balance, has way to much green on the low end. I've tried to correct it by eye with Ggain and Gbias in the user menus, but I can't seem to get it quite right.

I have an LCD Sony kdl-46z4100. All the reviews say that the Warm2 setting is very close to D65. I find this setting way to yellowish and prefer the Neutral setting. I know purists will say "but that's not the way it was meant to be viewed". All I can say is, that's the way I like it.

I'm also an electronics technician and I like building things from scratch. I thought, because I don't want to calibrate to the D65 standard anyway, maybe I don't need a calibrated probe and I can save some bucks by building a nice probe that will let me do smooth gray scales based on a white that I like.

I have no way to calibrate a home made probe (thoughts on that?) so if it is going to need to be calibrated even to do this, then I guess I will have to spring for a commercial probe after all.
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post #736 of 985 Old 02-17-2009, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzig View Post

Good question, I'll try to answer.

My tv, with factory color balance, has way to much green on the low end. I've tried to correct it by eye with Ggain and Gbias in the user menus, but I can't seem to get it quite right.

I have an LCD Sony kdl-46z4100. All the reviews say that the Warm2 setting is very close to D65. I find this setting way to yellowish and prefer the Neutral setting. I know purists will say "but that's not the way it was meant to be viewed". All I can say is, that's the way I like it.

I'm also an electronics technician and I like building things from scratch. I thought, because I don't want to calibrate to the D65 standard anyway, maybe I don't need a calibrated probe and I can save some bucks by building a nice probe that will let me do smooth gray scales based on a white that I like.

I have no way to calibrate a home made probe (thoughts on that?) so if it is going to need to be calibrated even to do this, then I guess I will have to spring for a commercial probe after all.

You need a commercial probe.

The reason warm2 looks yellowy, is because those sony's are very poor out of the box for grey scale and color fidelity.

If you want to take a pass at getting your screen adjusted to D65 and setting your colors correctly, we'd love to help you. If you just want ot eyeball what you think looks good, this isnt' a good forum to post in for you, usually they'll be all kinds of people doing that in the display forum with the "official" post for your TV.

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post #737 of 985 Old 02-17-2009, 12:48 PM
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I second sotti. Warm2 is always said to be the "closest" to the standard, but "closest" is definitely not very close in most cases. Even your Sony needs to be calibrated. If you really want to eliminate the yellowish and green tints, you need to calibrate it to the standard and get as perfect of a gray that you can across the board. You should calibrate both of your sets.
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post #738 of 985 Old 02-17-2009, 07:23 PM
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OK, I'll ask again. Consider the following from curtpalme.com:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Ok! Let's get started! First, some important rules:

* Let your projector/TV warm up for at least 30 minutes before doing a greyscale calibration. It will take time to stabilize. Important: If you're using a Plasma display, make sure to let the sensor warm up on the display for a good 30 minutes as the plasma will get warm and you want the sensor to stabilize to the same temperature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Step 1.10:

Eye-One users only: You'll need to calibrate the sensor otherwise ColorHCFR will pop up a window asking you to do this before you take your first readings. Set the "Time during which device calibration remains valid" to 0 to make sure that we don't have to redo a calibration during this session. You'll have to calibrate next time you start up ColorHCFR or unplug/replug the Eye-One. Calibration is done two different ways depending on which display type you selected previously:
LCD or Plasma: Click "Calibrate internal sensor offsets" and place the sensor on a flat non-porous opaque surface. A black surface is preferred. The inside of a black DVD case works great. Make sure it's flat and no extra light is getting in there! Select "OK" to calibrate.

-----------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, there seems to be a contradiction in these steps. The first one says to let it warm up on the set just before calibrating; the second one says to put it inside a black DVD case (or completely dark/flat surface with no extra light getting in) just before calibrating. So what should I do?

This is with i1display 2/LT and plasma TV. Thanks!
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post #739 of 985 Old 02-17-2009, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblevin View Post

OK, I'll ask again. Consider the following from curtpalme.com:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Ok! Let's get started! First, some important rules:

* Let your projector/TV warm up for at least 30 minutes before doing a greyscale calibration. It will take time to stabilize. Important: If you're using a Plasma display, make sure to let the sensor warm up on the display for a good 30 minutes as the plasma will get warm and you want the sensor to stabilize to the same temperature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Step 1.10:

Eye-One users only: You'll need to calibrate the sensor otherwise ColorHCFR will pop up a window asking you to do this before you take your first readings. Set the "Time during which device calibration remains valid" to 0 to make sure that we don't have to redo a calibration during this session. You'll have to calibrate next time you start up ColorHCFR or unplug/replug the Eye-One. Calibration is done two different ways depending on which display type you selected previously:
LCD or Plasma: Click "Calibrate internal sensor offsets" and place the sensor on a flat non-porous opaque surface. A black surface is preferred. The inside of a black DVD case works great. Make sure it's flat and no extra light is getting in there! Select "OK" to calibrate.

-----------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, there seems to be a contradiction in these steps. The first one says to let it warm up on the set just before calibrating; the second one says to put it inside a black DVD case (or completely dark/flat surface with no extra light getting in) just before calibrating. So what should I do?

This is with i1display 2/LT and plasma TV. Thanks!

I don't see a contradiction. Ideally one lets the device warm up for 30 minutes on the set, esp. a plasma as they put off a lot of heat. Then you set the EyeOne on a flat dark surface, e.g., a DVD case, long enough to calibrate it. Then you set it back on the screen in order to perform the measurements. Unless you set it on the surface, then forget and go off to make a pot of coffee before you run the calibration, the device internals won't cool off that quickly.
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post #740 of 985 Old 02-18-2009, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jblevin View Post

Thanks. I was wondering about this: It says leave it warm up on the screen for 30 min. with plasmas. But then, for the calibrate meter routine, normally you're supposed to put it in complete darkness (e.g. inside a bag or on a flat, dark surface). So for the plasma case after the 30 min. do you take it off, calibrate meter, and put it back in place, or do you leave it on the set and turn off the set and calibrate meter with the set off though perhaps not totally immersed in darkness?



Thanks, will think about that. Note, one thing I have noticed is that THX definitely looks different than it did some weeks back. I think the set changes slightly over time, esp. after the first 100-200 hours, but even after that I'm noticing a slight change. The phosphors cure / break in during the first several weeks right? THX is a bit darker now than it was a couple weeks ago. So in other words - they provide THX-certified color accuracy from the factory, but it's not going to be THX accurate after only a few months. Makes me wonder how valuble THX mode really is. Also gives me more incentive to go ahead and try the greyscale calibration.

Basically it is... Heat the meter on the TV 30 minutes.... Remove from TV and place on black surface with all lights in the room off.... Do the CALIBRATE METER in the software and then put it back on the TV and get started with taking your readings.

As for the PZ800. Ya. It likely did change a little. The meter will help you decide if you should bother going forward. I personally would do greyscale readings first and if I am less than 250k off from the D65 standard for the greyscale or even better use dE and let's say 6 dE or less across from 30 to 90 Stimulus? I would not bother adjusting greyscale with that meter as you are unlikely to notice the difference and the meter is not quite accurate enough to know if you are making it better or worse than it already was. dE of 6 or less is pretty awesome BTW. I would love to hear what it comes out at with a D2 and colorHCFR if you get a chance.

As for the colors? Those cannot be changed. You can adjust the decoding (luminance of color vs. white) with the color control but again... remember that the D2 is a +/- 2% range of accuracy from reality. If you check it at it's default and Y is reading less than 2% off on RED's Y versus white's Y, then it is close enough at least as far as that meter goes.

C.

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post #741 of 985 Old 02-21-2009, 03:51 PM
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I've downloaded the program but i don't have a probe like spyder and/or similar.. does any body know if can i use the simulated sensor from HCFR colorimeter ? it really works ??!!?
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post #742 of 985 Old 02-21-2009, 03:54 PM
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I've downloaded the program but i don't have a probe like spyder and/or similar.. does any body know if can i use the simulated sensor from HCFR colorimeter ? it really works ??!!?

Simulated sensor....is only so you can learn how the program works......you can't calibrate anything that way.
Thats why it is "SIMULATED SENSOR"
You need to buy some hardware to calibarte.

Hope this helps

RayJr
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post #743 of 985 Old 02-22-2009, 12:35 AM
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The issue about Calman having access to lower light levels of an i1 meter might actually be the case although I cannot prove it as I dont have access to Calman. At least not yet. I do have an older i1 monitor, the predessor to the i1 pro. I also have an older version of Colorfacts. From 0 to about 30 ire the colorfacts programme gives a longish read time before speeding up as the grey scale images get brighter. HCFR however, take a quick reading for each ire window regardless of light level. This does suggest that the software is insensitive to the 'needs' of a spectroradiometer at low light levels.

Regards,

Paul H
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post #744 of 985 Old 02-22-2009, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hayward View Post

HCFR however, take a quick reading for each ire window regardless of light level. This does suggest that the software is insensitive to the 'needs' of a spectroradiometer at low light levels.

Paul,

HCFR has an option under Sensor configuration called "average many reads on dark measurements." If this is checked, HCFR will take multiple readings using a certain algorithm and take the average. The algorithm is customizable via the following settings in the colorhcfr.ini file:

MinRequestedY=10
MaxReadLoops=8

If I'm remembering correctly, these settings control the total Y measured and the total number of readings it'll do regardless of total Y. For example, if you take a reading at 20% stimulus of ~3 cd/m^2 then HCFR will take 4 readings which brings the total Y over 10 (assuming you get close to 3 for each reading) and average them. If the reading was ~1 cd/m^2 then HCFR will take 8 readings and average them.

It's been awhile since I looked at this but I recall that Calman does more than just multiple readings and averaging.

hope this helps,


--tom
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post #745 of 985 Old 02-22-2009, 06:38 AM
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RayJr.. thanks with the info.. i live in brazil and the colorimeter here costs a lot.. so i'll use settings posted by people who have the device in order to performe calibration.. (with low delta-e values.. grayscale.. corrected temp color 6500k and gamma around 2.2) Thanks in advance !
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post #746 of 985 Old 02-22-2009, 06:44 AM
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Hi Tom,

Thank you. This is very helpful. My reading of all this is that the ipro with Calman is capable of accessing greater accuracy below 30ire compared to HCFR precisely for the reasons you have given. Taking averages from readings is OK but only if the readings themselves are meaningful. I guess the real question is just how lower the accuracy goes with Calman and whether it is worth the price of admission. I get repeatable and stable results at 30ire and above with HCFR and the obvious improvement in picture quality is very satisfying.

Regards,

Paul H
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post #747 of 985 Old 02-22-2009, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hayward View Post

The issue about Calman having access to lower light levels of an i1 meter might actually be the case although I cannot prove it as I dont have access to Calman. At least not yet. I do have an older i1 monitor, the predessor to the i1 pro. I also have an older version of Colorfacts. From 0 to about 30 ire the colorfacts programme gives a longish read time before speeding up as the grey scale images get brighter. HCFR however, take a quick reading for each ire window regardless of light level. This does suggest that the software is insensitive to the 'needs' of a spectroradiometer at low light levels.

Regards,

Paul H

HCFR speeds up as the images get brighter, even without selecting "average many reads ...".
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post #748 of 985 Old 02-22-2009, 11:43 PM
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It doesnt with my i1 monitor unless I select the average dark readings option. Without averaging the intervals are a few seconds each across the selected 20 step grey scale. Interestingly, the results with activated average dark reading take much longer but are identical to the fast readings without the averaging. The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that Calman may well have greater access Spectoradiometers at lower levels.

Regards,

Paul H
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post #749 of 985 Old 02-23-2009, 07:27 AM
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Interesting.

My DTP-94 takes a few seconds on darker readings and gets progressively faster until it takes less than half a second at the brightest readings.
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post #750 of 985 Old 03-16-2009, 10:18 AM
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I built my HCFR probe about a year ago and I calibrated all my TVs and PC monitors with the original software and firmware. I figured it would be nice to upgrade to the new software and firmware, so I did. Now my probe connects but will "freeze" the software for a while and then report it has lost the connection (LED comes back on) and it will refuse to connect again until I reset or unplug/plug again. Needless to say the probe is useless now. I even tried flashing other chips thinking it was a faulty cpu.

All software was downloaded from the French web site, and tested in 3 different PCs (one of them an old laptop with USB 1.1 only)

Anyone had similar problems?
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