Calibrating a Non-Elite Kuro - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello people,

Ok, so i've finally decided to keep my Pioneer Kuro 5080HD in lieu of upgrading to the Elite Kuro 1150HD. My reasoning has been based primarily from what i've learned from several forum members. I've been told that the 5080 can be calibrated just as the 1150, except that on the Elite 1150, the finer color controls are available to the user via the user menu, whereas the 5080's individual color controls are only accessible via the Service Menu.

1. Is this statement true?

2. If not, are there any additional settings in the service menu that cannot be accessed via the user menu? Or does the ISF Calibrator come to your house and calibrate your TV using just the User Menu?

If that's the case, I hardly think $3-$400 is worth it. Surely there's something "under the hood"?

3. Is the Service Menu accessible via the remote, or by hooking up a PC to the console port on the back, or both?

Can someone please help clarify this mystery? After all, this is why alot people are going Elite (or Non-Elite if they deem this user control unnecessary).


Thank You!
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post #2 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 11:35 AM
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The non-Elites only have RGB controls in the SM. You will be stuck with colorspace 1 and you will only have one calibratrion profile while the Elites are capable of multipul (D65, D55, D7K for sports, etc).

And you have to use a specifc key pattern (remote keys) to access the SM.


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post #3 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank YOU. I very much appreciate the explaination. Kinda bums me out, but that's the bed i've made..

Now, if I can ask you one more question, what's the difference between Colorspace 1 and 2?



Thank you D-Nice.
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post #4 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 01:08 PM
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Here is the jist of the differences (pictures are from HDTVExpert.com):


Colorspace 1:


Colorspace 2:


Colorspace 2 is simply more accurate....although I have seen much better color points with colorspace 2 than what is pictured here.


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post #5 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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oh, that explains it

I realized after i asked the question that it was not simple answer. CS2 is more accurate. Ok.... sounds good to me
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post #6 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Here is the jist of the differences (pictures are from HDTVExpert.com):


Colorspace 1:


Colorspace 2:


Colorspace 2 is simply more accurate....although I have seen much better color points with colorspace 2 than what is pictured here.
Those measurements do not agree with what I am seeing between color space 1 and 2. 1 is not not nearly that bad. The first file below is color space 1 and the second is color space 2. Both are after calibration. I would say that instrument is very poor. I have worked on many of these units and all have been close to the results below. None have looked like what HDTV Expert is showing.

 

Final Tristim.pdf 5.92578125k . file

 

Final Colors.pdf 5.8984375k . file

W. Jeff Meier


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post #7 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 02:45 PM
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There are many things to get right in these systems besides display color.

When it comes to color and the non-Elites the other option is a RadianceXD from Lumagen. That product is superior in its color management over the Elites. This technology is being considered for Lumagen's VisionHDP product as well. This will put a full CMS capability within the range of most people. The best future route to great Kuro performance is probably a non-Elite paired with a VisionHDP and a proper setup.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #8 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok..Ok.. interesting stuff.

So, with that in mind, I have a couple more questions:

1. What, besides the RGB color control, is available for calibration in the Service Menu of Non-Elite Kuros?

2. Is there a guide for the Service Menu? Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks!
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post #9 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phorts View Post

Ok..Ok.. interesting stuff.

So, with that in mind, I have a couple more questions:

1. What, besides the RGB color control, is available for calibration in the Service Menu of Non-Elite Kuros?

2. Is there a guide for the Service Menu? Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks!

1. Nothing I would recommend.

2. Yes you can buy one.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #10 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phorts View Post

1. What, besides the RGB color control, is available for calibration in the Service Menu of Non-Elite Kuros?

Nothing

Quote:
2. Is there a guide for the Service Menu? Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks!

Nothing beyond a Service manual


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post #11 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Those measurements do not agree with what I am seeing between color space 1 and 2. 1 is not not nearly that bad. The first file below is color space 1 and the second is color space 2. Both are after calibration. I would say that instrument is very poor. I have worked on many of these units and all have been close to the results below. None have looked like what HDTV Expert is showing.

I've seen pretty much what you just posted. I didn't have any pitures on hand to post....that is why I used HDTVExpert's picturss. Both charts show that colorspace 2 is far mor accurate than colorspace 1.


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post #12 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I've seen pretty much what you just posted. I didn't have any pitures on hand to post....that is why I used HDTVExpert's picturss. Both charts show that colorspace 2 is far mor accurate than colorspace 1.

The sad thing is that these charts make the process look like it is fill in the dots. The whole process and the final results are much more complex in the whole than what is shown in any instrument report. There are also ways that the marks are missed that are not nearly as objectionable as others.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #13 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

1. Nothing I would recommend.

2. Yes you can buy one.

Ok, Ok, now i'm beginning to understand. So, if I have this right, the following statement is true.

If an ISF Tech were to come out to my house to calibrate my non-elite Kuro, he would need to enter the Service Mode in order to access the RGB controls, which are they only controls, other than the accessible user menu, which would need to be adjusted in order to calibrate the TV?

Am i missing something?

So, are the non-elite PDP's just not capable of producing the color of the Elite series, and for that matter the other Elite capabilities, OR did Pioneer just limit the access to these controls to entice people to buy the Elite?


I'm still convinced that it's not worth the extra $1000...

In fact, i'm starting to think that paying $400 for someone to come out with 10's of thousands of dollars in equipment to play with the Brightness/Contrast/Color/Tint/Sharpness/DRE/Gamma/ColorTemp, etc on my TV for a few hours is a little extravagent.

Surely there must be more to this "calibration" thing?


I realize this might offend some people, and it is certainly not meant to do so, i'm simply trying to make sense of it all. I'm more than willing to be schooled in the ways of Video Calibration and "shown the light" as it were.... but from where I stand, i can't justify the need to A. Go Elite or B. Get your set calibrated.

Maybe if i saw a calibrated Elite and Non-Elite sitting side by side playing the same source... i might change my mind?

I might never know.


PS - i "found" a service manual. Not very exciting stuff. haha.
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post #14 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phorts View Post

I'm still convinced that it's not worth the extra $1000...

The question you have to ask yourself is, is it worth having a more accurate picture?

When I was shopping for my plasma I wanted to have as much control over the image as possible without having to resort to the service menu or be restricted in the number of modes.

The best options for that are, more or less, Pioneer Elite, NEC plasmas, Panasonic industrial models. I ended up going with the NEC since the generation I bought was the same as the Elite but cheaper.

While these sets don't have a full CMS, they do offer about as much control as you can get short of that and fully tweaked give you a great picture.
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post #15 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phorts View Post

...

I might never know.
...

I suspect you never will.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #16 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phorts View Post

Ok, Ok, now i'm beginning to understand. So, if I have this right, the following statement is true.

If an ISF Tech were to come out to my house to calibrate my non-elite Kuro, he would need to enter the Service Mode in order to access the RGB controls, which are they only controls, other than the accessible user menu, which would need to be adjusted in order to calibrate the TV?

Am i missing something? ....


Yes.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #17 of 29 Old 02-01-2008, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so if i'm missing something, please, enlighten me. I'm here to learn. Again, i don't mean to offen anyone and i'm sorry if i did. I realize that this technology is very complicated and, as a graphic designer, i know how important and complex that color is, i'm simply wondering why i couldnt just use, say, D-Nice's reference settings taken from an ISF Calibrated 5080 and call it good.

What i'm asking is, is there added value in having an ISF Calibrator come to my house? What else is there that can/needs to be done to my TV other than adjusting the user settings and the RGB settings in the Service Menu?
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post #18 of 29 Old 02-02-2008, 09:24 AM
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Here's an answer to your "shared settings" question:

http://www.isfforum.com/FAQs/view/IS...ttings/33.html

The rest of the video calibration FAQ where this question is answered might also be helpful for you.

http://www.isfforum.com/FAQs/.html

Doug


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post #19 of 29 Old 02-02-2008, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you doug, that was very helpful. I think i've got the information I was seeking.

One thing still remains, about if the Elite's and Non-Elite Kuros are identical, component wise, but just that the Non-Elites are locked out of the functions that the Elite has...

I'm going to Tweeter to Cancel my credit line I opened up. If they "find a way" to give me a break on price on the Elite, I might just have to do it.....

thank you all for this helpful information. I'll let ya know how I work out, as I think a lot of new 5080 owners are following this post and wondering if having their new set Calibrated will make them even happier.....
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post #20 of 29 Old 02-04-2008, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Went to Tweeter on Saturday to try to use the "i'm cancelling my credit line" move to see if I could get them to budge on the $3000 price of the 1150. It didnt work. I left the store just yearning for the ELITE... I had to wait for the dude to finish up w/ a customer so i spent 30 minutes sitting in their comfy chairs in one of their setup rooms staring at the elite and a Discovery HD Broadcast of "The Universe". It was easily the best TV in the place (except for maybe the 110FD). So, the door is still open for the 1150, cuz I wasn't able to close my card there.... the salesman will call me if he finds anything like an open box..or whatever... GREAT, i'm sure you guys are just excited about hearing from me for another week..haha..

Anyways, I did have a calibration question:

To Calibrate the Elite 1150, does an ISF Calibrator need to enter the SM can they perform the entire calibration using user settings? In other words, is there anything in the SM of an Elite that needs to be "adjusted"?


Thanks!
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post #21 of 29 Old 02-07-2008, 12:31 AM
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Yo Calibraters, check out the Free utility Sencore produced for adjusting ISF ccc on Elite Kuros.

Why mess around with hacking service mode and screwing up displays. The whole ISFccc system was designed to make display calibration easer, faster and risk free. And now it is free from Sencore.

Oh, did I forget to menction that in the Elite Kuro's ISFccc, there are many calibration adjustments not available in the service mode? Things like 9 point RGB gamma corection, Y-C delay and more.

Have fun

josh
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post #22 of 29 Old 02-07-2008, 04:25 AM
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Josh,

Yo, any chance of a link?

A search at Sencore for Kuro brings up zero results...

Thanks for your help with this.

Doug


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post #23 of 29 Old 02-07-2008, 05:16 AM
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Incidentally the Datacolor c3 app has been working for me for a couple of months now....and I have to say that the 9 point rgb gamma and the y/c delay in the C3 interface of these displays is not that well implimented. I would suggest you'd get a hugely superior result with the Lumagen CMS as UMR suggests

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post #24 of 29 Old 02-07-2008, 09:15 AM
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Greetings

Hey Gordon, you have the C3 that works on the new pioneers? We consult for datacolor and they tell us the program is not ready ... and they are not implementing it into the CF program.

Which Datacolor are you working with?

Regards

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post #25 of 29 Old 02-08-2008, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshk View Post

Yo Calibraters, check out the Free utility Sencore produced for adjusting ISF ccc on Elite Kuros.

Why mess around with hacking service mode and screwing up displays. The whole ISFccc system was designed to make display calibration easer, faster and risk free. And now it is free from Sencore.

Oh, did I forget to menction that in the Elite Kuro's ISFccc, there are many calibration adjustments not available in the service mode? Things like 9 point RGB gamma corection, Y-C delay and more.

Have fun

josh

Hi,

Will the Sencore-Pioneer ISF C3 interface work on the European Kuro models?

Cheers
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post #26 of 29 Old 02-08-2008, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshk View Post

Yo Calibraters, check out the Free utility Sencore produced for adjusting ISF ccc on Elite Kuros.

1) Josh, will the utility work on Euro elite-like models?

2) It looks like the utility has access to all calibrating controls but RGBYCM adjustments ("Colour Management" in user menu). Why is that?

3) Will future versions of the utility will have the opportunity to adjust per-channel (RGB) luminance and\\or per-channel (RGB) color saturation?
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post #27 of 29 Old 02-08-2008, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

1) Josh, will the utility work on Euro elite-like models?

2) It looks like the utility has access to all calibrating controls but RGBYCM adjustments ("Colour Management" in user menu). Why is that?

3) Will future versions of the utility will have the opportunity to adjust per-channel (RGB) luminance and\\or per-channel (RGB) color saturation?

My guess is that this is a loaner from Josh that he is giving out to calibrators for free. If it is a free utility, then Sencore has done a complete 180 degree shift from their existing business model (they used to or still charge north of $1500 for this add-on).

Bill

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post #28 of 29 Old 02-13-2008, 09:35 AM
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I havent seen this question answered within this thread (i will keep searching but if someone can, please give an answer)

If the display is ISF calibrated, will the 5080 and an elite version be equal in terms of calibration results, or is the 5080 limited in adjustsments not only for the average user, but for the ISF calibrator?
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post #29 of 29 Old 02-13-2008, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post

I havent seen this question answered within this thread (i will keep searching but if someone can, please give an answer)

If the display is ISF calibrated, will the 5080 and an elite version be equal in terms of calibration results, or is the 5080 limited in adjustsments not only for the average user, but for the ISF calibrator?

The Elite has more options/settings, so someone doing a good job should get a "tighter" result. Someone doing a "show and go" job would probably do equally well on either (i.e., adequate at best).

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