best buy offers hdtv calibration: how does it rate (details inside) - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 454 Old 05-02-2009, 09:06 AM
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Best Buy serves a purpose in the market. It is not necessary to make such generalizations. Yes, it is true that their people are often misinformed and in general less well educated than most of us here, but what do you expect from that kind of business.

There are times that I buy things from BB and recommend that others do when they have a decent value. As long as you do your homework you will know the difference.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #182 of 454 Old 05-03-2009, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by godfa7h3r View Post


I'm assuming you have a Pioneer 6020? If that is true then yes you are correct. There was a time period where we did not have the correct software and training to calibrate the new Kuro plasmas when they arrived (as it should have been the case with every calibrator in the country). However, it has been resolved and we are equipped to fully calibrate them (in our market anyway)

Just curious, I'm an ISF calibrator out of the one of the BB stores and I'm curious what kind of equipment they are using for calibrating 6020FD's. I've gotten 2 pioneers so far. I personally showed the customer some other references to go to, to get it calibrated. We use the Sencore Colorpro V (but no ControlCAL). Which isn't terrible, but without ControlCAL, I don't see how any calibrator can honestly put his seal of approval on one of these displays without using it. So I'm curious what your calibrator is using to calibrate the 9G pioneers.

And if you are aware of what new equipment they are going to, please inform me. I've tried to get with a few higher ups to see if they are making any changes and they either have no idea, or say nothing is changing as far as I know. So any info my way is appreciated immensely. Thanks
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post #183 of 454 Old 05-03-2009, 09:59 PM
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I've already gotten a few people mad at the store because I wouldn't calibrate certain displays. It is not that I wouldn't do it, but I think the same way a lot of the non-BB calibrators do on this forum. You are basically putting your name and reputation on the line when you do a TV. I for one, am not going to throw my reputation down the toilet because it makes my store money.

If I feel I can't do a great job and have customer satisfaction backed up with accurate results (calibration reports) then I won't do the display. I'd personally lump the 9G Pios in that category is all.
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post #184 of 454 Old 05-14-2009, 02:09 PM
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If people don't know about calibrating it's doubtful they are going to see the subtle differences a calibration can make. Generally most flat screens can be "calibrated" to a large extent in the user menu.

Back in the days of CRT rear projection sets calibrations made vast improvements over the stock settings, not so much with flat panels. To REALLY calibrate a plasma the back normally needs to come off to adjust the panel voltages. Small changes to the panel drive voltages (especially VSUS) make big differences in the picture.
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post #185 of 454 Old 05-14-2009, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Servicetech571 View Post

If people don't know about calibrating it's doubtful they are going to see the subtle differences a calibration can make. Generally most flat screens can be "calibrated" to a large extent in the user menu.

Back in the days of CRT rear projection sets calibrations made vast improvements over the stock settings, not so much with flat panels. To REALLY calibrate a plasma the back normally needs to come off to adjust the panel voltages. Small changes to the panel drive voltages (especially VSUS) make big differences in the picture.

I'm assuming this is normally done through potentiometers?


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post #186 of 454 Old 05-14-2009, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Servicetech571 View Post

If people don't know about calibrating it's doubtful they are going to see the subtle differences a calibration can make.

Try telling your wife/girlfriend that it doesnt make a difference which shade of lipstick she wears, "it's doubtful they are going to see the subtle differences"
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Generally most flat screens can be "calibrated" to a large extent in the user menu.

Doesn't matter where the calibration controls are, you need to be able to make the correct adjustments.....
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Back in the days of CRT rear projection sets calibrations made vast improvements over the stock settings, not so much with flat panels. To REALLY calibrate a plasma the back normally needs to come off to adjust the panel voltages. Small changes to the panel drive voltages (especially VSUS) make big differences in the picture.

Really.......... I've never seen anything like that.

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post #187 of 454 Old 05-14-2009, 05:48 PM
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It is not all that uncommon to have to tweak the voltages in a PDP. To do some of them right you need a scope, some can be done visually. None should be done in the first few hundred hours of operation. Most calibrators would not even attempt it, as the symptom would not be one of the things they normally address, just like a panel with poor gray scale or needing CMS alignments would largely be ignored by most service techs. The worlds of the service tech and the calibration specialist do not cross over very much, unfortunately. IMO, every service tech should be as qualified as your average calibrator when it comes to aligning displays. Most could not care less what it looks like if there is an image on the screen. I think most calibration specialists would do well to review service and training information on the sets that they calibrate as well. It surprises me how few actually do.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #188 of 454 Old 05-14-2009, 06:07 PM
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Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.
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post #189 of 454 Old 05-15-2009, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.

Admittedly, calibrators are hit or miss. I'm hoping you requested your money back after he "calibrated" it by eye?


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post #190 of 454 Old 05-15-2009, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.

If it was done "by eye", I would assume you might have paid for a consultation but not a full calibration....

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post #191 of 454 Old 05-15-2009, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jarrod1937 View Post

Admittedly, calibrators are hit or miss. I'm hoping you requested your money back after he "calibrated" it by eye?

I have not.

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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

If it was done "by eye", I would assume you might have paid for a consultation but not a full calibration....

It was the "full" calibration.
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post #192 of 454 Old 05-21-2009, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.

Adjusting the grayscale by eye??!

Grr... That makes me

In my humble opinion, anyone who "calibrates" a TV without going into the service menu and using professional equipment, is a fraud who's only doing it for a quick buck. Such a person has no real passion for the science of video display calibration.
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post #193 of 454 Old 05-22-2009, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.

What year? 10 years ago, that would not have been uncommon. Today, there are much better ways.

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In my humble opinion, anyone who "calibrates" a TV without going into the service menu and using professional equipment, is a fraud who's only doing it for a quick buck. Such a person has no real passion for the science of video display calibration.

The THX Calibration course teaches to use the Service Menu only if it cannot be adusted properly in the User Menu (in fact, no Service Menu training is taught during the 3 day course - same with ISF). Does that mean ISF and THX are frauds?
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post #194 of 454 Old 05-22-2009, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.

What year? 10 years ago, that would not have been uncommon. Today, there are much better ways.
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post #195 of 454 Old 05-22-2009, 05:41 AM
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(in fact, no Service Menu training is taught during the 3 day course

Randy, perhaps you missed the section on Samsung CCA manipulation, or working on the Panasonic industrial plasma? Also working on the Westinghouse and the Sylvania LCD panels? Both of these also require service mode entry.

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The THX Calibration course teaches to use the Service Menu only if it cannot be adusted properly in the User Menu

the above is basically true. The calibrator has to balance the need to perform a level of tweeking vs consumer convenience vs the potential to screw something up.

As Randy has indicated, there is no need on many displays, to enter the service menus to perform a 100% calibration (including CMS manipulation - where applicable).

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post #196 of 454 Old 05-22-2009, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

Randy, perhaps you missed the section on Samsung CCA manipulation, or working on the Panasonic industrial plasma? Also working on the Westinghouse and the Sylvania LCD panels? Both of these also require service mode entry.



the above is basically true. The calibrator has to balance the need to perform a level of tweeking vs consumer convenience vs the potential to screw something up.

As Randy has indicated, there is no need on many displays, to enter the service menus to perform a 100% calibration (including CMS manipulation - where applicable).

I agree with Gregg, furthermore, I learned the SM color decoder and grayscale adjustments for a Sony CRT in the ISF class. Many of the professional calibrators participate in a "private" forum, where they can discuss, learn and share calibration info. This is a big advantage for both the calibrator and customer.

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post #197 of 454 Old 05-23-2009, 01:35 AM
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I agree with Gregg, furthermore, I learned the SM color decoder and grayscale adjustments for a Sony CRT in the ISF class. .

Guess I should have gone to your ISF Class. I went to a special 3 day course Joel taught himself in Boca with as much hands on time as the THX class and no info on the Sony Color Decoder Errors/management was ever taught. Furthermore, I guess the 10 minute demonstration on CCA with the Samsung with no hands on time with that unit @ THX, I guess I am not surprised I don't remember that was the one option in the SM on that unit.

Furthermore, I am aware of multiple warranty claims that Sony has rejected because of statements a calibrator had gone into the SM. Now granted, that had nothing to do with OB failures and the like, but they like to use that as an excuse to deny warranty claims.

But regardless, Joel and Gregg both stated in very certain terms in the classes, only go into the SM unless you cannot adjust the set in the UM.

Thus regarding Shawn1's statement:

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In my humble opinion, anyone who "calibrates" a TV without going into the service menu and using professional equipment, is a fraud who's only doing it for a quick buck. Such a person has no real passion for the science of video display calibration.

If he thinks Gregg and Joel fit that description, he might need to re-examine his opinion.
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post #198 of 454 Old 05-23-2009, 10:36 AM
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What year? 10 years ago, that would not have been uncommon. Today, there are much better ways.

Recently.
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post #199 of 454 Old 05-23-2009, 03:24 PM
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I've come to the conclusion that a Best Buy calibration is a pretty good value compared to a 'professional' calibrator here.
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post #200 of 454 Old 05-24-2009, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

I've come to the conclusion that a Best Buy calibration is a pretty good value compared to some 'professional' calibrators.

That is totally dependent on "your" definition of a professional calibrator. Just taking a ISF class does not automatically make a "professional calibrator"

From stories I've heard, the person who claimed to do a ISF calibration by eye (no calibration equipment), could probably do better than some BB calibrators. But we are just talking about skill sets developed by "calibrators" who have taken the ISF class. Some become great calibrators and some not so good. Someone really into "calibration" can probably tune their skills by starting at BB, however, the time to do a really through calibration is not in the BB guidelines......

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post #201 of 454 Old 05-24-2009, 05:32 PM
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Here's a bit of an argument for all of the people babbling nonsensically about how Monsters are a rip-off, BBY is a scam, and calibration sucks.

I was an audio engineer at Interscope Records and am an MHT Pro at BBY. Monster HDMI cables, are in fact, overpriced. However, you do need a faster speed HDMI cable to get a cleaner picture. The Ultra 1000 is way too much, same with the M series. But the cheap Blu-Ray Kit HDMI or the Rocketfish is more than enough. You need a 120hz HDMI, or you will see judder, pixelation, and a loose image. Plain and simple.

Monster PowerCenters regulate your energy and keep power surges from causing problems with your TV sources. Once again, plain and simple. They turn it off and back on, and regulate energy. That's about it.

TV Calibration is absolutely worth it. ISF Certified, and it increases your black levels. You get a cleaner, darker, more realistic image that saves you energy. Lastly, plain and simple.

Go ahead, rag on about how you will "block" me and I am drinking the BBY koolaid and that you know all.

But coming from a person that has worked at MHT for 3 years and before that an independent HT store for 6 years, I think it's fair to say I know more than armchair "Home Theater experts" on AVSForum and the internet as a whole. $10 HDMI don't work like a Monster or RF. Plain and simple.

People like you come into our Best Buys and think you know everything about HT, TVs, and you look down on us when you judge us. Just because you sit in a cubicle all day and type up reports doesn't make us lesser than you. So when you start screwing with our calibrated sets or try to undermine what we're recommending for you, expect nasty service. You did it to yourself. And if you really think those sharks at Sears know better, once again, good for you.

Sorry for the rant, idiots like I see far too often on this site irritate me.
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post #202 of 454 Old 05-24-2009, 07:42 PM
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However, you do need a faster speed HDMI cable to get a cleaner picture. The Ultra 1000 is way too much, same with the M series. But the cheap Blu-Ray Kit HDMI or the Rocketfish is more than enough. You need a 120hz HDMI, or you will see judder, pixelation, and a loose image. Plain and simple.

You need to do some more research... nothing more to say.
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But coming from a person that has worked at MHT for 3 years and before that an independent HT store for 6 years, I think it's fair to say I know more than armchair "Home Theater experts" on AVSForum and the internet as a whole. $10 HDMI don't work like a Monster or RF. Plain and simple.

Years of experience don't mean crap. I can give you a person who has been "programming" for 10+ years, and put him next to a person who has been programming for 2 years... You'd be surprised to find sometimes the ones with less "yearly" experience know quite a bit more.

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Sorry for the rant, idiots like I see far too often on this site irritate me.

A comment like that makes me think you're the arrogant one.


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post #203 of 454 Old 05-24-2009, 08:14 PM
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You need a 120hz HDMI, or you will see judder, pixelation, and a loose image. Plain and simple.

Just a thought, but you may want to look more at your source than your cable.

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post #204 of 454 Old 05-24-2009, 08:20 PM
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Well, I've hooked a Dynex 6 ft HDMI to my Toshiba, then a 4 ft BluRay Kit Monster to it, and night and day.
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post #205 of 454 Old 05-24-2009, 08:25 PM
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Well, I've hooked a Dynex 6 ft HDMI to my Toshiba, then a 4 ft BluRay Kit Monster to it, and night and day.

I'd guess a defective cable. At 6 feet there should be no difference. Though do you know what category it is certified for?


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post #206 of 454 Old 05-25-2009, 01:01 AM
 
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Well, I've hooked a Dynex 6 ft HDMI to my Toshiba, then a 4 ft BluRay Kit Monster to it, and night and day.

How did you establish this difference? What test patterns were you observing and how did they measure or appear different? What content, specifically, were you observing, and what specifically appeared different?
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post #207 of 454 Old 05-25-2009, 01:05 AM
 
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TV Calibration is absolutely worth it. ISF Certified, and it increases your black levels. You get a cleaner, darker, more realistic image that saves you energy.

I agree, except with the saving you energy part. That really depends. It may or may not. If you choose an eco mode out of the box on some of the newer TVs, a calibrated TV may use more energy. On some displays, like projectors, calibration will have no effect at all on power consumption. The power-saving angle is a stretch, as even BBY says. The essence of calibration is about image accuracy, hence image quality. As a calibrator, one does not concern themselves with power use, and it doesn't necessarily correlate with power savings. Often, compared to out of the box vivid settings on a TV, it may happen to correlate with less power, but that is not a goal of a calibrated image.


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But coming from a person that has worked at MHT for 3 years and before that an independent HT store for 6 years, I think it's fair to say I know more than armchair "Home Theater experts" on AVSForum and the internet as a whole.

I hope you realize that this is a fairly insulting, and ignorant assertion. I hope you realize that many of the engineers behind the displays you sell, or displays a good deal more advanced than you carry, are members and participate in this forum. I hope you realize that many of the studio engineers, video compressionists, mastering engineers, mixers, codec developers, and many more who are behind all the technologies in your products and the content you sell, participate in this forum as well. So if you're going to come on here trying to claim that there is a visible performance difference among functioning HDMI cabling on a forum where there are people intimately involved with the design and engineering of HDMI cables and HDMI technology claiming that you know more than the entire internet, you're going to get laughed right the heck out of here for such absurdities.

On this forum are engineers, founders, etc, from the likes of Dolby, Denon, Marantz, JVC, Triad, Audyssey, Microsoft, Accupel, etc etc etc. The list of professionals around AVS is quite long. The amount of knowledge you can dig up, if you dig, is VAST. I suggest you drop the attitude, FAST, because you'll not learn anything if you think you know more than the very people who designed and built your products and technologies from the ground up.

If an HDMI cable is functioning for the bandwidth you are requiring of it without dropping pixels, then you are getting 100% of everything and it is not distinguishable in any way from another functioning HDMI cable. This is not to say that HDMI cabling is not a serious concern at high bandwidths or at distance, but when an HDMI cable fails, it fails rather spectacularly. There are no shades of differentiation as there are with analog cabling. It either works, or it does not work.
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post #208 of 454 Old 05-25-2009, 01:14 AM
 
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I'd guess a defective cable. At 6 feet there should be no difference. Though do you know what category it is certified for?

I wouldn't guess that. If the cable were defective it would most likely show no picture at all, or some variation of the sparklies. If you're getting a picture on both, there will be no difference at all. The category certification isn't really relevant for this, and 6 feet is extremely short, so hitting bandwidth for 1080p60 should be no problem. If you were going say 30feet, then it's a whole other ballgame, and cabling quality can be quite critical indeed, but again, if it's working then it's 100%. If the cabling is an issue, it is painfully obvious.
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post #209 of 454 Old 05-25-2009, 03:51 AM
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"People like you come into our Best Buys and think you know everything about HT, TVs, and you look down on us when you judge us. Just because you sit in a cubicle all day and type up reports doesn't make us lesser than you. So when you start screwing with our calibrated sets or try to undermine what we're recommending for you, expect nasty service."

Resentful staff and nasty service. Glad you do not work in a restaurant. You only get annoyed because you care about what they think - judging you. Be magnamous, rise above it, let it go like water of a ducks back. Alternatively just do not give a damn and if you want to be annoying try being patronizing, more irratating than being nasty, and will not get you sacked, you were just trying to be helpful.
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post #210 of 454 Old 05-25-2009, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tribestros View Post

Sorry for the rant, idiots like I see far too often on this site irritate me.

If you are going to break the rules and make personal attacks and insults, at least direct it to someone specific.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area:
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