Does the Falcon chip really help with RROD? - AVS Forum
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Old 03-17-2008, 11:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Im about to get a Falcon Chip Elite tomorrow and was wondering if the new chip really works. Does it really help RROD? I noticed that with the new chips, you go from 203 watts to 175 watts, which is a decrease of almost 30 watts which means it should run cooler. I have no idea when the new GPU chips or coming, so I wanted to get this. Does it really help?

(note: I keep my consoles in a very open area, on top of a desk.)
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:15 AM
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Time will tell. Ultimately the CPU has smaller geometries and consumes less power, so theoretically it produces less heat. If you give it a chance to cool itself it should be able to.

But the power supply's rating really doesn't have much to do with it directly. It supplies less power than older versions - that's about the only thing you can guarantee from those numbers.
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Telexen View Post

Time will tell.

Which is another way of saying: "maybe?"

No one knows for sure yet. Once the new chips have been on the market for a while longer, we'll have a much better sense.

But remember, too, that MS never redesigned the 360 after RRoD failures started escalating. They just added some heat-sinks to help dissipate heat a bit better. My guess would be that RRoD will just be a fact of life for the 360 throughout its lifecycle, but hopefully the suckiness of RRoD's been mitigated a bit by the heat-sinks and the 3-year exchange program.

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Old 03-18-2008, 06:01 AM
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Its sad that my two xbox's one premium and elite both RROD'd over the weekend. Each time both made a buzz noise through the speakers and then froze, then restart to the 3 red lights. I know people attribute the problem to overheating but both are well vented, each sits on an open stand and each incident occured during the initial boot up after being off for a day or so. MS can move things around all the want inside they just need to stop buying low grade parts. Ok I feel better now

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Old 03-18-2008, 06:31 AM
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Magic 8-ball says: "Maybe"

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Old 03-18-2008, 09:02 AM
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I know of someone that has gone through 2 Falcon's. The first one died within a week and the 2nd one died after 2 months, both with the 3 RROD. He is waiting for a replacement now.
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Old 03-18-2008, 09:05 AM
 
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If you buy a 360, it may die, or it may not. What I can tell you with certainty is that if you don't buy a 360, then you wont be enjoying the games.
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Old 03-18-2008, 09:11 AM
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i have a new elite falcon and comparing it to my older launch box it definately produces much less heat. im crossing my fingers that it remains rrod-free unlike my launch box that has been back twice.

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Old 03-18-2008, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Which is another way of saying: "maybe?"

No one knows for sure yet. Once the new chips have been on the market for a while longer, we'll have a much better sense.

But remember, too, that MS never redesigned the 360 after RRoD failures started escalating. They just added some heat-sinks to help dissipate heat a bit better. My guess would be that RRoD will just be a fact of life for the 360 throughout its lifecycle, but hopefully the suckiness of RRoD's been mitigated a bit by the heat-sinks and the 3-year exchange program.

Wow troll much ?

MS did redesign the 360. They included a 65nm cpu which reduces the heat and power requirements of the console. They also issued a respin of the gpu that is included on the falcon motherboard. Its still 90nm but it does run cooler than the old . It also has a new heatsink and added to better exhaust fans and decreased heat from the cpu rrods have decreased , there are very few reports of falcon 360s having the rrod problem.

The rrod problem was mostly due to the fact that the heat on the gpu was to much for it to handle. It would melt the soder connections or kill the gpu .

Later this year (some are saying by gta4 time) we will also see the 65nm xenos come out which will reduce the size , power draw and heat output of the gpu. This along with teh better cooling should put the rrod to rest forever.


The only people who think the rrod will be a problem for ever are the sony fan boys who only have that to hold on too . a 3 year warrenty with falling failure rates will quickly put an end to that thinking though.

I mean after all how many people still talk about the massive first adn second year psone failings as a reason why they wouldn't buy a ps2 or ps3 and the massive ps2 failures in the first and second year as reasons why they wouldn't buy a ps3 .

As long as the consumers aren't left out in the cold with broken machines there shouldn't be a problem
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_e_emarpea View Post

i have a new elite falcon and comparing it to my older launch box it definately produces much less heat. im crossing my fingers that it remains rrod-free unlike my launch box that has been back twice.

i wonder if i'm the only one with a mint launch unit that has never had a problem ?

Perhaps i can sell it on ebay for massive amounts
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gljvd View Post

i wonder if i'm the only one with a mint launch unit that has never had a problem ?

Perhaps i can sell it on ebay for massive amounts

Dec 05 unit here still no problems. Stopped knocking on wood a long time ago. Bought a second 360 Halo model back in October 07.

The 5.0 is here
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gljvd View Post

i wonder if i'm the only one with a mint launch unit that has never had a problem ?

Perhaps i can sell it on ebay for massive amounts

No it just seems that way. I have two units since launch. Both still work great today. I did however just trade one in for the HDMI/Falcon model.

Definitely runs much cooler and quiter. Some fan noise when playing games games, but whisper quite doing everything else.


Problem is with this RROD thing there is noway to tell apart legit gripes and idiots that kept there 360 stuffed into an airtight entertaiment center. Therefor legit failures and user neglect go into the same pool of complaints.


IMO Microsofts problem was inventing the RROD in the first place. They shouldnt have given a problem a distinguishing signal like that. Now anyone who gets the RROD assumes itrs MS's fault. Regardless how badly they abused their system.

Not to mention I can post on this board right now that Im on the 6th RROD 360. Can you prove me wrong? I beleive ther is problem, but in my group of about 30 or so launch 3609 owners very few have had RROD. Less than 5.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by gljvd View Post

Wow troll much ?

MS did redesign the 360. They included a 65nm cpu which reduces the heat and power requirements of the console. They also issued a respin of the gpu that is included on the falcon motherboard. Its still 90nm but it does run cooler than the old . It also has a new heatsink and added to better exhaust fans and decreased heat from the cpu rrods have decreased , there are very few reports of falcon 360s having the rrod problem.

The rrod problem was mostly due to the fact that the heat on the gpu was to much for it to handle. It would melt the soder connections or kill the gpu .

Later this year (some are saying by gta4 time) we will also see the 65nm xenos come out which will reduce the size , power draw and heat output of the gpu. This along with teh better cooling should put the rrod to rest forever.


The only people who think the rrod will be a problem for ever are the sony fan boys who only have that to hold on too . a 3 year warrenty with falling failure rates will quickly put an end to that thinking though.

I mean after all how many people still talk about the massive first adn second year psone failings as a reason why they wouldn't buy a ps2 or ps3 and the massive ps2 failures in the first and second year as reasons why they wouldn't buy a ps3 .

As long as the consumers aren't left out in the cold with broken machines there shouldn't be a problem

he's not trolling.

From what I understand in the grand scheme of things this isn't the chips' fault, it's the x-clamp melting due to heat and poor design. And, again, from everything I've read the x-clamp is still there unmodified.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by clevername View Post

he's not trolling.

From what I understand in the grand scheme of things this isn't the chips' fault, it's the x-clamp melting due to heat and poor design. And, again, from everything I've read the x-clamp is still there unmodified.

The X-clamp applies pressure to the board and therefore causes it to flex, breaking the cheap cold solder joints on the GPU. The X-clamp can be modified using different bolts and washers to alleviate the problem. Cleaning off the heatsinks and applying fresh thermal paste along with the x-clamp modification has proven to be a very viable option for those who like to get more hands on.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by clevername View Post

he's not trolling.

From what I understand in the grand scheme of things this isn't the chips' fault, it's the x-clamp melting due to heat and poor design. And, again, from everything I've read the x-clamp is still there unmodified.

Re read what you just wrote.

Here I'm going to quote the important part.

Quote:


due to heat

So now , we know that they replaced the cpu with a cooler running cpu . 90nm to 65nm.

So thats reducing the problem of heat.

We know they changed the exhaust fans to higehr quality fans that move more air and less decibels . Thus reducing the problem of heat.

We also know that they improved the heat sink design . Thus its able to absorb more heat and vent it more efficently .

So the heat problem is largely gone. We also know they modified the x clamp design on the elite , pro and arcade versions with the hdmi port. They have added a glue type deal to the outskirts of the clamp .

If you also notice websites are not reporting any falcon failures. With the older units they were all over the rrod problem and were treating it as if they were fox news covering obama cheating on his wife with a white racest that he was paying 4k a night to sleep with .

these storys have all but dried up .

so we know alot . The only reports i have heard of failing systems come from before august 07 units . August 07 aren't even the falcon systems , they are simply the ones with the new heatsinks .

I guess in another year as reports of rrod further die off we will hear this dropped ?
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh Drown View Post

Im about to get a Falcon Chip Elite tomorrow and was wondering if the new chip really works. Does it really help RROD? I noticed that with the new chips, you go from 203 watts to 175 watts, which is a decrease of almost 30 watts which means it should run cooler. I have no idea when the new GPU chips or coming, so I wanted to get this. Does it really help? (note: I keep my consoles in a very open area, on top of a desk.)

Do you already have a 360? If not, get the Elite and enjoy

When the 360's were failing, they (reportedly) had a 30% failure rate. Way too high, of course. I can't imagine it is still that high as of today.

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Old 03-18-2008, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by clevername View Post

he's not trolling.

From what I understand in the grand scheme of things this isn't the chips' fault, it's the x-clamp melting due to heat and poor design. And, again, from everything I've read the x-clamp is still there unmodified.

Thanks, man. As most of the rest of us know, "trolling" usually comes in the "he who smelt it dealt it" variety.

The problem isn't just "heat." The heat problem is a symptom of a larger engineering problem. The heatsinks are a stop-gap measure to try and make up for a rushed hardware design. And while the new chips will help keep everything a bit cooler, it's still not addressing the cramped and poorly arranged guts of the console. Granted, though, these changes will probably bring the number of RRoD consoles down to a more reasonable and manageable number, but not stop the problem altogether. Already, there seem to be a lot fewer RRoDing consoles judging by forum chatter and blogs.

Regardless, the "stop-gaps" were enough to convince me to finally pick up a 360 a few months back.

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Old 03-18-2008, 01:44 PM
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The "Falcon" isn't just about the chip, there are better cooling components in the newer machines as well.

That being said, if you do get a newer Falcon box, you can expect better performance overall anyway.
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gljvd View Post

i wonder if i'm the only one with a mint launch unit that has never had a problem ?


Like the one poster said, at worst there was/is a 30% failure rate... which while ENTIRELY unacceptable STILL means that 70% did not fail.

If you walked into Vegas knowing there was a 30% chance you'd lose everything - but a 70% chance you'd win big money... you tell me if those odds aren't acceptable.


The RRoD issue is a major problem - but it is well known due to a vocal minority. The odds are actually that an owner will never deal with the extended warranty. However now that I write this - I fear I have just sealed my fate...

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Old 03-18-2008, 03:22 PM
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The problem with the 30% estimate made last summer is that those other 70% are still out there (and still failing). I know everyone says this, but everyone I know who bought a 360 before last fall has had it RRoD. Granted, my sample size is pretty small (six, one of those just last week), but that's some bad odds if you ask me.

Like the much less publicized problems with the disc drives in PS2s, RRoD is not a question of "if" but "when." But with the replacement program in place, new heatsinks, and cooler chips, if you're at all on the fence about getting a 360, you're totally safe with your purchase now. Just don't expect it to keep on kicking for another 20 years the way your old Atari 2600 still does.

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Old 03-18-2008, 03:43 PM
 
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I love how the completely fictional 30% number is consistantly thrown around as fact on these boards.
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by A.C View Post

Like the one poster said, at worst there was/is a 30% failure rate... which while ENTIRELY unacceptable STILL means that 70% did not fail.

If you walked into Vegas knowing there was a 30% chance you'd lose everything - but a 70% chance you'd win big money... you tell me if those odds aren't acceptable.

Omg I think I just wet myself LOL...

Are you saying that a 70% chance that equipment I buy DOESN'T fail are good odds? Are you saying that PAYING money for something and expecting it to work is akin to hitting it big in vegas!? Holy Shatner man you've been brainwashed!!!

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Old 03-18-2008, 03:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

I love how the completely fictional 30% number is consistantly thrown around as fact on these boards.

Well, any number you would put out would be just as fictional and also a guess. Some believe it could be higher some believe it could be lower. What I don't believe is the 3-5% figure MS spewed out. My anecdotal evidence based on friends Live friends list, etc would put it over 30% but really we'll never know the exact number.
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:53 PM
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sgae, did you read my post? seriously. another reason i hate talking consoles.

i said it was ENTIRELY unacceptable. that said - the quoted poster's sentament was that he felt alone with a working launch unit. my point (if you care to step back & read the quote without interjecting your own subplots) is that he was not alone - and that the odds were that most launch units were in fact still operational. and that, again, while the situation is ENTIRELY unacceptable from a business/consumer standpoint... the reason people think EVERY launch unit will fail is b/c of the vocal minority.

if the majority were vocal, then they would outweigh the RRoD'ers by 7:3 (ish?)... or at WORST 6:4

my vegas citation was an attempt to put the concept of "odds" into perspective. i could have used the weather & the % chance of it raining. a 30% chance of rain does not mean rain is inevitable. quite the contrary as it also means there will be a 70% chance of non-rain. good grief. clearly i failed. i hate console discussion. the average poster is always reading "fanboy" between every line posted...

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Old 03-18-2008, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by gljvd View Post

Wow troll much ?

Well.... he did mention Microsoft's 3 year warranty. I don't think you will see a warranty like that from any other gaming system.

So while your PS3 is less likely to break... if it does after a year, you are SOL. At least with the 360, you are covered no matter what for 3 years, less the hassle of a send back.

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Old 03-18-2008, 04:42 PM
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Well....At least with the 360, you are covered no matter what for 3 years, less the hassle of a send back.


Actually you're only covered for the RROD for three years, not for optical drive failures or any other way that you're 360 can expire. I'm on my fifth 360 and only two have been RROD. I am glad that I purchased Microsoft's extended warranty with my launch unit (which died day one by freezing completely during PGR4 and PD0).
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

I love how the completely fictional 30% number is consistantly thrown around as fact on these boards.

I don't think that anyone was calling it a fact. At best, it's an anecdotal estimate based on retailer exchanges; at worst, it's total FUD. In any case, it's remarkably widespread, and any 360 owner knows at least one or more others who have had a unit RRoD.

So long as we're talking statistics, the percentage of RRoD-ed units made before the fall of '07 can only increase with time. It's literally impossible to estimate how high this percentage will get, which is why MS implemented their refurb/replace program when they did. It was either that or institute a recall; either option implies that they've been convinced that the hardware will very likely fail. Even though every manufacturer expects a certain amount of hardware failure, MS obviously didn't expect RRoD to be as widespread as it is.

But I really don't think this is news to anyone at this point. The question is, will the newer chips and heatsinks be enough to keep RRoD at an acceptably low rate? MS seems to think so. The next logical question is, do we trust their opinion?

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Old 03-18-2008, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by weremichael View Post

Actually you're only covered for the RROD for three years, not for optical drive failures or any other way that you're 360 can expire. I'm on my fifth 360 and only two have been RROD. I am glad that I purchased Microsoft's extended warranty with my launch unit (which died day one by freezing completely during PGR4 and PD0).

Well, I'm not sure what the deal is there. I have one of the first Xbox 360's ever made (I received it 3 days before console launch day) and I have never had a RROD or any other issue. For all the people who publically complain about their Xbox 360 failures, I am sure there are several people like me who quietly do not have issues. Good point on mentioning that the warranty only covers the RROD issue for 3 years. It wasn't my intention to mislead by omitting that from my statement.

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Old 03-18-2008, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

...Good point on mentioning that the warranty only covers the RROD issue for 3 years. It wasn't my intention to mislead by omitting that from my statement.

I wouldn't assume you would.

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Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

Well, I'm not sure what the deal is there. I have one of the first Xbox 360's ever made (I received it 3 days before console launch day) and I have never had a RROD or any other issue....

I'm quite jealous of your launch system chugging away completely oblivious to its less fortunate brethren.
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Old 03-18-2008, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

Well.... he did mention Microsoft's 3 year warranty. I don't think you will see a warranty like that from any other gaming system.

So while your PS3 is less likely to break... if it does after a year, you are SOL. At least with the 360, you are covered no matter what for 3 years, less the hassle of a send back.

Big misconception. My 360 failed but only had one light go off therefore it could not get fixed under the warranty even though it was a hardware failure.

I had to pay $99 to send it in to get it fixed. I was very unhappy about that.

I actually just sent the white box off today. They said it takes 2 to 3 weeks before I can get it back. Is that when they get it from UPS or when I send it out? Does it really that that long or is it really longer? Just wanna know how long I will be out.
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