Xbox 360 settings: Black Levels - Extended or Standard? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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What does this do?

Which would be best?

Is it in any way similiar to the PS3 and it's RGB/Limited/Full option?


Help?

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post #2 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 01:32 PM
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3rd option, have you tried it and saw for yourself what the difference looks like.

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post #3 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 01:37 PM
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Make model of your tv and cable your using is a great start if you want help.

Standard= 480p playback and used for component cables and hdmi.

Intermediate= Just lame. Its a happy medium which no such thing exist. It should have been left out.

Expanded= PC levels use that when using vga/hdmi-dvi cable.
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post #4 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRn View Post

Make model of your tv and cable your using is a great start if you want help.

Standard= 480p playback and used for component cables and hdmi.

Intermediate= Just lame. Its a happy medium which no such thing exist. It should have been left out.

Expanded= PC levels use that when using vga/hdmi-dvi cable.


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Component

Max resolution comes in at 1080i because my set does not accept 1080p through component/analog


Thanks for any more info, though what you posted is informative. Which setting do you suggest I use?

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post #5 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 03:26 PM
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Standard. On a side note. Are you able to use hdmi or is your 360 a non hdmi unit?

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Originally Posted by Elite Pro-FHD1 View Post

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Max resolution comes in at 1080i because my set does not accept 1080p through component/analog


Thanks for any more info, though what you posted is informative. Which setting do you suggest I use?

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post #6 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 04:34 PM
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i have hdmi and i always had it on extended on my elite with my panasonic TH-42PX75u 720p native 1080p upscale avaiable....

its been nice ever since sept when halo 3 came out, but i just rented avp requiem and god dam i cannot enjoy watching the dvd (not blu ray) and i tried watching it on my pc crt and i was able enjoying the set.....

so my question is should i keep it in standard intermidte or extended?
is it a known fact or official? based on your assumption of standard 480i/p and extended hdmi vga etc?

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post #7 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 04:44 PM
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You should set it as standard (as the name indicates) as almost all the TVs support standard by default. Extended was introduced because a lot of ppl have trouble using VGA connection (the only way to get 1080p easily before HDMI xbox 360s). If you use Extended on a TV that is configured to receive standard signal, you will get black crush. HDMI-DVI cable does not automatically mean you need to use extended either as a lot of pre-HDMI TVs has DVI but support standard mode. It has nothing to do with 480i/p either.

For component connections, you should use standard all the time. Use extended only if you use HDMI or VGA connection and you know your particula TV's input is configured to receive PC signals rather than video signals.

If, however, you're using a PC monitor, extended is the way to go because that's what your PC outputs.
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post #8 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 04:53 PM
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well my TH-42PX75u does not have pc inputs and i do use hdmi via the xbox 360 elite so i dont know standard or extended will be the best choice, but say if i set it to standard do i lose an image that i would get in extended? or extended is not nessary on a tv display when feeded via hdmi?

i wish ms would explain this clearly!


also this is something else related but i dont know where to post, my elite came with a werid dongle device of some sort that has fiber optic toslink and 1 set of red and white wires... does this degrade sound quality? because i feel like my 360 elite lacks of sound quality compared to my white 360 non hdmi i want the absolute audio quality

and my receiver reconises 2 mode of signal out of 360 via hdmi to in tv out of tv toslink and to toslink in receiver... and 2nd choice out of dongle device toslink directly to in receiver
because i can set it like this input mode 360 elite > hdmi with dongle toslink > input receiver

360 elite hdmi only no dongle > tv out> toslink digital in to > reciver....

does it makes sense? i got 2 signal modes that my onkyo TX-sr600 picks up
1 mode it can be feeded via hdmi out of the 360 to input signal on tv then deliver the sound via tv out digital toslink (this method hdmi deliver sound and then outputed via toslink)

other is directly from the dongle device toslink to input receiver toslink(this runs out of 360 via toslink only directly to receiver

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post #9 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 05:01 PM
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I tried out intermediate and found that the resulting image was WAY too dark. Standard seems to give me the beast results along with a few custom tweaks on my Mitsu.
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post #10 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 05:09 PM
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On my monitor (Westinghouse LVM-37W3) using HDMI in, I need to use Expanded.

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post #11 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 05:16 PM
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You would want it on Standard with your particular setup. See with you having it on Extended. The 360 is sending out pc levels 0-255 and your tv is expecting 16-235. Hence the black crush your getting. Setting it to Standard matches your signals up. If I am wrong. Please feel free to correct me. But, I feel pretty confident about that statement. As for your audio. I have mine split up. HDMI for video optical for sound. The dongle does not degrade your sound or any thing. Its for you can split things up audio/video wise if you want.

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Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

well my TH-42PX75u does not have pc inputs and i do use hdmi via the xbox 360 elite so i dont know standard or extended will be the best choice, but say if i set it to standard do i lose an image that i would get in extended? or extended is not nessary on a tv display when feeded via hdmi?

i wish ms would explain this clearly!


also this is something else related but i dont know where to post, my elite came with a werid dongle device of some sort that has fiber optic toslink and 1 set of red and white wires... does this degrade sound quality? because i feel like my 360 elite lacks of sound quality compared to my white 360 non hdmi i want the absolute audio quality

and my receiver reconises 2 mode of signal out of 360 via hdmi to in tv out of tv toslink and to toslink in receiver... and 2nd choice out of dongle device toslink directly to in receiver
because i can set it like this input mode 360 elite > hdmi with dongle toslink > input receiver

360 elite hdmi only no dongle > tv out> toslink digital in to > reciver....

does it makes sense? i got 2 signal modes that my onkyo TX-sr600 picks up
1 mode it can be feeded via hdmi out of the 360 to input signal on tv then deliver the sound via tv out digital toslink (this method hdmi deliver sound and then outputed via toslink)

other is directly from the dongle device toslink to input receiver toslink(this runs out of 360 via toslink only directly to receiver

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post #12 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRn View Post

You would want it on Standard with your particular setup. See with you having it on Extended. The 360 is sending out pc levels 0-255 and your tv is expecting 16-235. Hence the black crush your getting. Setting it to Standard matches your signals up. If I am wrong. Please feel free to correct me. But, I feel pretty confident about that statement. As for your audio. I have mine split up. HDMI for video optical for sound. The dongle does not degrade your sound or any thing. Its for you can split things up audio/video wise if you want.


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post #13 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 06:03 PM
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Wow, i didn't know there was even a difference. I tried all three and didn't notice any difference.
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post #14 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 06:04 PM
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then ill just use standard also the 2 audio signals can you help in there? dont know if the hdmi sends a better signal to the tv then out of the tv to toslink then to receiver OR out of the 360 dongle device from the toslink directly to the receiver - thus skipping the tv section ?

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post #15 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

well my TH-42PX75u does not have pc inputs and i do use hdmi via the xbox 360 elite so i dont know standard or extended will be the best choice, but say if i set it to standard do i lose an image that i would get in extended? or extended is not nessary on a tv display when feeded via hdmi?

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Originally Posted by KoRn View Post

You would want it on Standard with your particular setup. See with you having it on Extended. The 360 is sending out pc levels 0-255 and your tv is expecting 16-235. Hence the black crush your getting. Setting it to Standard matches your signals up. If I am wrong. Please feel free to correct me. But, I feel pretty confident about that statement.

KoRn is correct. All Panny consumer TVs only support standard, e.g. video levels. If you set to use extended, you get both black crush and white crush. That is you lost details on both dark areas and bright areas.
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post #16 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 06:42 PM
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so then extended is only for vga connections with lcd moniters ?

also what about my audio cosern?

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post #17 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

then ill just use standard also the 2 audio signals can you help in there? dont know if the hdmi sends a better signal to the tv then out of the tv to toslink then to receiver OR out of the 360 dongle device from the toslink directly to the receiver - thus skipping the tv section ?

In the case of Xbox 360, HDMI will not send out better audio than toslink. In fact it will be worse. The reason is almost all TVs only accept PCM 2.0 stereo from HDMI. When you connect your HDMI from XBox 360 directly to TV, all you get from HDMI is 2.0 stereo. On top of that most TVs's toslink, especially Panny's, only send out audio that is from internal ATSC/QAM tuner, not relaying digital audio from HDMI input. So, you should connect toslink directly from XBox to receiver. If your receiver has HDMI ports as well, you can connection XBox->Receiver->TV as well without using toslink cable.
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post #18 of 65 Old 06-03-2008, 06:49 PM
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thanks! that explains it so i was right hdmi to tv then from tv toslink to receiver is worse! because the hdmi sent a limited audio

while insted out of the 360 toslink to input receiver sends best signal thanks!

and my onkyo tx sr600 does not have hdmi. once i have my 9g kuro ill let that process all the video but not the audio thanks again!


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In the case of Xbox 360, HDMI will not send out better audio than toslink. In fact it will be worse. The reason is almost all TVs only accept PCM 2.0 stereo from HDMI. When you connect your HDMI from XBox 360 directly to TV, all you get from HDMI is 2.0 stereo. On top of that most TVs's toslink, especially Panny's, only send out audio that is from internal ATSC/QAM tuner, not relaying digital audio from HDMI input. So, you should connect toslink directly from XBox to receiver. If your receiver has HDMI ports as well, you can connection XBox->Receiver->TV as well without using toslink cable.


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post #19 of 65 Old 07-06-2008, 10:00 PM
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I have an Aquos 46D64U and a 360 Elite over HDMI at 1080p. Which would be better for me, Standard or Extended?
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post #20 of 65 Old 07-06-2008, 10:36 PM
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do standard, i have a plasma (which are excellent for blacks) and it had crushed blacks in movies and in games when it was on extended, Sure you can get better blacks in extended but what good is it if it crushed blacks?? so do standard,

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post #21 of 65 Old 07-06-2008, 11:45 PM
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It doesn't depend on the TYPE of tv or how well it uses blacks, but instead if its going by the PC or video color scale.

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post #22 of 65 Old 07-07-2008, 12:39 AM
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excuse me? are you reffering to my post? the standard intermidete and extended does affect the picture by crushing the blacks (proven with a movie in a dark scene AND on on games like ex gta 4,

put standard mode on refrence and go to the menu on the gta where the stats are at and you will seee that you can see a black background when highlighted white or clear line to see the stats. Now go back to extended and do the repeat on gta and the clear color will disapear and the stats will be harder to see/ read.



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It doesn't depend on the TYPE of tv or how well it uses blacks, but instead if its going by the PC or video color scale.


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post #23 of 65 Old 07-07-2008, 01:23 AM
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Standard on my Samsung 5271 makes the screen really foggy. Without Expanded, my display would be trash. I guess every TV is different with these settings. The 71 has great blacks, but you wouldn't know at all using Standard-and no crush.

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post #24 of 65 Old 07-07-2008, 01:32 AM
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to begain with that "foogy" was there before the latest update that gave such option, Ask yourself why did ms add this option ? hmm because thats the limitaions of each diffrent tv, see thats what you gotta undestand why did ms put this mode?

because the lack of certain tvs PQ atributes, here the simple analogy

if a tv has crap blacks and and theirs a add (software or not) (filtrs etc) to increase the quality of your tv, then you get better hence the standard intermedite and extended. However it crushes blacks or messes up in some other areas because again the limitations of your tv set

another analogy your tv has diffrent presets right? standard vivic cinema custome etc

now go to a certain movie (where its a clear day with backgrounds that are dark)leave it pause flicker between standard and vivid and im almost 100% sure that when you enable one to another you will get crush blacks because the increase (to the untrained eye better picture aka torch mode)

so their it is i hope i make sense but just try it you know what i mean

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post #25 of 65 Old 07-07-2008, 01:52 AM
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Wow-your right! I set the 360 to Standard and then set my TV to the Dynamic setting, and it looked very similar to my using of Expanded and Standard on my TV. So, Dynamic or "Vivid" is not as dark and saturated as I thought all this time. I don't know if I got this set before or after the update, but I went straight to Expanded and assumed it was the right setting for my TV. Now Dynamic looks like me using my prefered Standard TV setting and Expanded combo, which means I couldn't even use the Standard TV setting with Standard 360 setting because it would still be too foggy-like. I'll continue to use the Standard TV setting and Expanded 360 setting combo, simply because I can't calibrate everything with Dynamic Mode. Which means: maybe I am getting some crush. The display still looks fantastic, though. But, thanks for the knowledge-wow!

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post #26 of 65 Old 07-07-2008, 02:00 AM
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just gotta play with settings and calibrations, first your tv must be calibrated as best as possible then you play with your 360s settings, same goes with resolution example like i have a 720p native panny 75u and it has capablitys to do 1080p upscaled and theirs an option on the 360 menu that lets you choose optional settings / resolution

this affects resolution not refrences mode

please excuse my misspelling and im glad you found your tv changes when you play with settings

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post #27 of 65 Old 07-07-2008, 04:16 AM
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I was just testing out watching an anime that had bright scenes, and everything looks washed out on expanded mode, and looks normal on standard mode, so I'm definitely sticking with standard.
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post #28 of 65 Old 07-07-2008, 04:17 AM
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so does this prove that i am correct?

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post #29 of 65 Old 07-07-2008, 04:52 AM
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I think that what makes people like the "expanded" setting isn't that it makes the blacks look "better", but rather that the remapped levels when combined with a TV's natural gamma curve create a darker gamma curve (going from 2.2 gamma to a 2.5 gamma for example). A darker gamma curve has a deeper look with richer looking colors. So they really are seeing a change that they like and not imagining things. If they can calibrate and make sure that it's not crushing blacks or casuing a bad color shift in the peak whites, then there is no reason not use expanded. Truthfully if your TV isn't calibrated by someone knowledgable, it's all strictly what the owner prefers anyway.

Also how a TV behaves when fed different signal types comes into play. A TV can act differently when fed an RGB signal then when it's fed digital component (YCrCb) even though both are coming from the same source over HDMI. It could be that certain TVs expect PC levels (expanded) when receiving RGB over HDMI.
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post #30 of 65 Old 07-07-2008, 04:52 AM
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Yes, you are very right You definitely have to calibrate your TV as best as possible first (using different sources, like HD Media, PC, DVD, Games, and Calibration discs), then try playing around with the 360 references levels and you can really see the difference and decide which one's look best.
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