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post #91 of 112 Old 04-28-2010, 05:09 AM
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I'm interested at how they will adopt this backwards compatibility into the slim. I guess the hard drive slot can go on top and it could look like a hump I suppose. I guess we'll see at E3

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post #92 of 112 Old 04-28-2010, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

doubt that. no console manufacturer has ever released new hardware that invalidated old hardware.

but i guess they could now that Sony has set the precedence. The PS3 is the first and only console that took away features as it aged.

The PS2 Slim dropped the port that allowed users to use the optional hard drive. That was long before the PS3 started dropping features.
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post #93 of 112 Old 04-28-2010, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by tgable View Post

But then how would MS rape its users for add-ons and get those good quarterly numbers? Think of all the poor MS execs!

Next you will ask for free online play, madness!

umm.. ok?

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post #94 of 112 Old 04-28-2010, 08:04 AM
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one could argue that the N64 did. I mean if you didn't have the expansion packs you could really play some of the biggest and best games.
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post #95 of 112 Old 04-28-2010, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by spid View Post

The PS2 Slim dropped the port that allowed users to use the optional hard drive. That was long before the PS3 started dropping features.

PS1 lost Svideo, RCA, RFU, serial & parallel ports as it aged. Not really a feature but the original JPN PS2 had a PCMCIA port. Dropping features is a Sony tradition.
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post #96 of 112 Old 04-28-2010, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ripeer View Post

one could argue that the N64 did. I mean if you didn't have the expansion packs you could really play some of the biggest and best games.

buying new accessories to play things has always been there. buying the sega 32x or the jaguar toilet bowl to play a handful of games.

buying the NES robot. the power glove. buying a gazillion wiimotes, nunchuks, motionplus attachments.

nintendo was better at perfecting this than anybody.

but you could keep on using the accessories you did have.
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post #97 of 112 Old 04-28-2010, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by spid View Post

The PS2 Slim dropped the port that allowed users to use the optional hard drive. That was long before the PS3 started dropping features.

that's true. forgot about that. yeah, that was to nip piracy too. my brother's huge ps2 still is useful just for the ability to use a hard drive. no lame flip top thing.

ps2 is still awesome for some things. they have user-created anime mods for guitar hero 2. really cool to play a ton of recent anime songs. if only they would make medium difficulty on songs. everything is hard or expert.
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post #98 of 112 Old 04-29-2010, 12:10 AM
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Features and accessories get dropped all the time.

The Atari 5200 was redesigned to cut cost and went from 4 controller ports to 2 (So you couldn't play 4 player games any longer on later consoles). The top loading NES lost the ability to output composite video. The redesigned SuperNes lost s-video capabilities. The GameCube lost the component video port late in it's production run. The multitaps for the original Playstation and Playstation 2 didn't work with their redesigns. The slim Playstation 2 lost HDD support. The Sega Genesis 3 lost compatibility with a range of things including games (Virtua Racing) and accessories like the Power Base Converter, 32X, and Sega CD.

And those are just examples that immediately came to mind. I'm sure there are many more examples of console redesigns that broke compatibility with various accessories and cables.
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post #99 of 112 Old 04-29-2010, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

Features and accessories get dropped all the time.

The Atari 5200 was redesigned to cut cost and went from 4 controller ports to 2 (So you couldn't play 4 player games any longer on later consoles). The top loading NES lost the ability to output composite video. The redesigned SuperNes lost s-video capabilities. The GameCube lost the component video port late in it's production run. The multitaps for the original Playstation and Playstation 2 didn't work with their redesigns. The slim Playstation 2 lost HDD support. The Sega Genesis 3 lost compatibility with a range of things including games (Virtua Racing) and accessories like the Power Base Converter, 32X, and Sega CD.

And those are just examples that immediately came to mind. I'm sure there are many more examples of console redesigns that broke compatibility with various accessories and cables.

Losing video ports doesn't affect the functionality of the device.

As for the Atari 5200, the 4 port model was on the market for less than a year before being replaced by the 2 port model. Was there even any games for 4 players made before the switch?

And the Sega Genesis 3 was not even made by Sega. It was made by Majesco. It's would be like saying the Atari Flashback device cannot run Atari 2600 accessories. well, duh.
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post #100 of 112 Old 04-29-2010, 07:57 PM
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The Sega Genesis 3 produced by Majesco was officially licensed by Sega and carried Sega branding. The Atari Flashback 2 actually does work with real 2600 accessories and the Flashback 2 controllers work fine on real 2600 hardware. And unlike the Flashback 2, it's a real console with a cartridge port so it's a pretty big deal that games and accessories don't work on it.

There are several 4 player 5200 games. Beamrider and Super Breakout both come to mind. Might be more.

And something like losing the component video port on the GameCube does affect the functionality of the device since you no longer can get the best video quality out of the console.

But the point is that the Playstation 3 doesn't have a monopoly over removing features during the source of it's life.
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post #101 of 112 Old 04-29-2010, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

There are several 4 player 5200 games. Beamrider and Super Breakout both come to mind. Might be more.

And something like losing the component video port on the GameCube does affect the functionality of the device since you no longer can get the best video quality out of the console.

But the point is that the Playstation 3 doesn't have a monopoly over removing features during the source of it's life.

Super Breakout was alternating 4 players. You didn't need 4 controllers.
Beamrider was also alternating players.

The only 4 player games I can think of were paddle games like Warlords (one of the best games ever!!!!!). but you get 2 paddles going to one controller port.

losing video ports doesn't prevent you from playing the game.

The best example listed was the Genesis 3 but that was released when the Genesis was a dead console so they released it to try to squeeze some more bucks out. It's like when the Atari 2600jr was released when the competition was SNES and Genesis!

And of course, the PS2 hard drive thing which I totally forgot about.
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post #102 of 112 Old 04-30-2010, 05:15 PM
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I'm talking about the Atari 5200, not the Atari 2600. The 5200 didn't have paddles and Warlords was never ported to the console (Although an excellent 4 player homebrew version has been done in recent years called Castle Crisis). Super Breakout supported 4 players using all 4 controller ports, although not simultaneosly. It had no 4 player mode that let you share controllers as far as I can remember and it's not mentioned in the manual either. So anyone wanting to play a 3 or 4 player game of it on a 2 port console was out of luck.

http://www.atariage.com/manual_page....=5&maxPages=14

"losing video ports doesn't prevent you from playing the game. "

I thought we were talking about losing features? The following quote from you that started it all specifically mentions "features". So I figured you meant more then just the loss of PS2 compatibility and were including things like the removal of SACD support, the loss of OtherOS support, etc. Those disappearing didn't prevent you from playing a game either.

"but i guess they could now that Sony has set the precedence. The PS3 is the first and only console that took away features as it aged."

I'd certainly consider something like the ability to output in progressive scan as a feature and the removal of the ability as a loss of a feature.

"The best example listed was the Genesis 3 but that was released when the Genesis was a dead console so they released it to try to squeeze some more bucks out. It's like when the Atari 2600jr was released when the competition was SNES and Genesis!"

Not sure why it matters? It's still a Sega Genesis that was being sold in stores that carried the Sega name plastered all over the box, played Sega Genesis cartridges, and used Sega Genesis accessories. Not counting it because the platform was dormant for the past year or so makes about as much sense as my not counting any Atari 2600 made after 1978 because they were outsourced to Taiwan and weren't manufactured in-house in Sunnyvale by Atari. And the 2600 Jr. was released in 1986 or so and did pretty well as a budget console (Sales numbers have recently surfaced) and even led to several companies like Activision to restart 2600 development and caused some new players to enter the field like Absolute. Did a lot in helping keep Atari afloat into the 90s until they decided to leave the business and were bought by JTS.
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post #103 of 112 Old 04-30-2010, 06:56 PM
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I wasn't referring to the 2600 version. I just threw in Warlords because it's just such an awesome game. So whenever we talk 4 player, that's the defining game.

As for functionality, don't go mixing up ideas.

there was no functionality for the older consoles besides gaming. except for the PS2 and the hard drive and thus the loss of that yaroze home development kit.

so there was no loss of functionality by losing video ports.

but the PS3 does have additional functionality besides gaming. so if they take out PS2 compatibility or take out linux functionality, that is losing features.

if they decided to take out the web browser, that would also be losing functionality, even though it has nothing to do with gaming.

and nothing kept Atari afloat except loans. what figures showed the 2600jr doing well? now that would be interesting to read!

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I'm talking about the Atari 5200, not the Atari 2600.

I thought we were talking about losing features? The following quote from you that started it all specifically mentions "features". So I figured you meant more then just the loss of PS2 compatibility and were including things like the removal of SACD support, the loss of OtherOS support, etc. Those disappearing didn't prevent you from playing a game either.

"but i guess they could now that Sony has set the precedence. The PS3 is the first and only console that took away features as it aged."

I'd certainly consider something like the ability to output in progressive scan as a feature and the removal of the ability as a loss of a feature.

"The best example listed was the Genesis 3 but that was released when the Genesis was a dead console so they released it to try to squeeze some more bucks out. It's like when the Atari 2600jr was released when the competition was SNES and Genesis!"

Not sure why it matters? It's still a Sega Genesis that was being sold in stores that carried the Sega name plastered all over the box, played Sega Genesis cartridges, and used Sega Genesis accessories. Not counting it because the platform was dormant for the past year or so makes about as much sense as my not counting any Atari 2600 made after 1978 because they were outsourced to Taiwan and weren't manufactured in-house in Sunnyvale by Atari. And the 2600 Jr. was released in 1986 or so and did pretty well as a budget console (Sales numbers have recently surfaced) and even led to several companies like Activision to restart 2600 development and caused some new players to enter the field like Absolute. Did a lot in helping keep Atari afloat into the 90s until they decided to leave the business and were bought by JTS.

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post #104 of 112 Old 04-30-2010, 07:39 PM
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The PSONE one lost what ever they called the sytem link system back then making for no system link GAMING. I would define this as a real feature loss regardless of have few used it (I did) or how few games supported it.
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post #105 of 112 Old 04-30-2010, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

and nothing kept Atari afloat except loans. what figures showed the 2600jr doing well? now that would be interesting to read!

I won't reply to most of your statement since my stance on it has already been pointed out. But Atari wasn't kept alive with loans.

It was doing quite well financially. The loans taken out to purchase the home division from Warner by the Tramiels of Commodore fame in 1984 or so were quickly paid off. And things like the 7800, Lynx, and 2600 Jr. were all profitable and kept the company in the black to allow it to develop new computer products. And their computer line was particularly successful, especially in Europe where the Atari ST and other Atari products were one of the most popular platforms in the late 80s and early 90s. Atari also won several notable lawsuits for patent infringement from competitors like Nintendo and Sega that helped fill Atari's coffers.

By 1996, Atari had millions in the bank but between the failure of the Lynx and Jaguar and the death of Atari's computer line, the company had no products to sell and the Tramiels decided they wanted out. So they reverse merged with JT Storage Inc. who wanted that capital in the bank and quickly sold off the Atari videogame IP assets that it had no interest in.

Heck, the 2600 Jr. sold 10 million units from it's 1986 launch until being discontinued in 1990/1991 and even older catalog titles were selling well (Pole Position, a port released for the console in 1983 sold 15,000 copies in 1990 in the last full year for the platform and nearly 600,000 between 86-90 when Atari Corp. rereleased it under their banner for the 2600 Jr.). And new Atari releases did quite well like Donkey Kong (Rereleased after Atari purchased Coleco's 2600 library) and fresh software like Jr. Pac-Man were successful too.

Here's the top 10 2600 titles from the Atari Corp era. We have sales data for every 2600 title Atari Corp sold which is detailed enough to even show us that Atari Corp. inherited 26 copies of StarShip that were sold (Copies left in a warehouse of a poorly recieved launch title from 1977). Also be aware that all 10 of these titles were developed by Atari Inc. and Tramiel's Atari Corp was just rereleasing them and only had to pay the production cost to manufacturer the carts since everything else like programming had already been done and paid for under previous ownership. Easy money...

It's ashame 1987 data hasn't been found yet because that was when the 2600 Jr. was at it's pinnacle It was being sold for $50 and Atari Corp was heavily marketing it as a budget and nostalgia platform (Was in it's 10th year after all) with their "Fun is Back" campaign that a few here might have childhood memories of. But thankfully we have overall sales data from 1986 through it's final year so it's easy to piece together the holes. Not bad for a platform released in 1977 that was largely rereleasing old content while going up against one of the most dominant platforms we've ever seen.

Everyone knows the Atari 7800, Atari Lynx, and Atari Jaguar were outsold by competing Nintendo and Sega products and assume Atari was in bankruptcy throughout it's final ten years. But they had a solid 3rd place niche in the console/handheld gaming marketplace and achieved a lot of success in the PC world and exploiting it's past assets like the 2600 and it's valuable patents.
LL
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post #106 of 112 Old 04-30-2010, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ripeer View Post

The PSONE one lost what ever they called the sytem link system back then making for no system link GAMING. I would define this as a real feature loss regardless of have few used it (I did) or how few games supported it.

yeah, i'd say that was a feature loss too.
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post #107 of 112 Old 04-30-2010, 10:05 PM
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Are we in the alternate universe of Fringe??? I wish I lived there!

I was a diehard Atarian. And I wouldn't go so far as to say that the 7800, Lynx, and 2600 Jr were successful. 10 million 2600Jr sold????

I got a 2600. Then a 1200XL. Then a 1040STf. Then a Lynx II. Then a Jaguar.

The closest thing to a hit after the 2600 was the Atari ST. and that was mostly in Europe.
The Atari 8-bit machines did great in the educational market for awhile. All the elementary schools and high schools were stocked full of Atari 800 machines. Then Apple started to dominate with the IIe machines.

They had a great chance with the ST. But then got caught in a war with lame Commodore when they should've both been fighting Apple with their POS monochrome Mac and CGA 4-color IBM PC.

Atari did not get rich from their lawsuits. they kept talking about how these cross-licensing agreements with Sega, etc. would result in Sonic coming to the Jag. it did nothing. just some hush money from Sega that barely kept them afloat.

all the game developers talked about how hard it was to get paid by Atari. and how payment was always late.

they didn't even have enough money to make the expensive cartridges for game reviews. that was death! back then, there was no internet. if a game magazine didn't review your game, nobody bought it.

while nintendo and sega was showering reviewers with gift baskets and lots of bling, atari couldn't even provide review cartridges.

They didn't even have enough money to design a new case for the Atari Falcon so they just colored the ST case dark gray!

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I won't reply to most of your statement since my stance on it has already been pointed out. But Atari wasn't kept alive with loans.

It was doing quite well financially. The loans taken out to purchase the home division from Warner by the Tramiels of Commodore fame in 1984 or so were quickly paid off. And things like the 7800, Lynx, and 2600 Jr. were all profitable and kept the company in the black to allow it to develop new computer products. And their computer line was particularly successful, especially in Europe where the Atari ST and other Atari products were one of the most popular platforms in the late 80s and early 90s. Atari also won several notable lawsuits for patent infringement from competitors like Nintendo and Sega that helped fill Atari's coffers.

By 1996, Atari had millions in the bank but between the failure of the Lynx and Jaguar and the death of Atari's computer line, the company had no products to sell and the Tramiels decided they wanted out. So they reverse merged with JT Storage Inc. who wanted that capital in the bank and quickly sold off the Atari videogame IP assets that it had no interest in.

Heck, the 2600 Jr. sold 10 million units from it's 1986 launch until being discontinued in 1990/1991 and even older catalog titles were selling well (Pole Position, a port released for the console in 1983 sold 15,000 copies in 1990 in the last full year for the platform and nearly 600,000 between 86-90 when Atari Corp. rereleased it under their banner for the 2600 Jr.). And new Atari releases did quite well like Donkey Kong (Rereleased after Atari purchased Coleco's 2600 library) and fresh software like Jr. Pac-Man were successful too.

Here's the top 10 2600 titles from the Atari Corp era. We have sales data for every 2600 title Atari Corp sold which is detailed enough to even show us that Atari Corp. inherited 26 copies of StarShip that were sold (Copies left in a warehouse of a poorly recieved launch title from 1977). Also be aware that all 10 of these titles were developed by Atari Inc. and Tramiel's Atari Corp was just rereleasing them and only had to pay the production cost to manufacturer the carts since everything else like programming had already been done and paid for under previous ownership. Easy money...

It's ashame 1987 data hasn't been found yet because that was when the 2600 Jr. was at it's pinnacle It was being sold for $50 and Atari Corp was heavily marketing it as a budget and nostalgia platform (Was in it's 10th year after all) with their "Fun is Back" campaign that a few here might have childhood memories of. But thankfully we have overall sales data from 1986 through it's final year so it's easy to piece together the holes. Not bad for a platform released in 1977 that was largely rereleasing old content while going up against one of the most dominant platforms we've ever seen.

Everyone knows the Atari 7800, Atari Lynx, and Atari Jaguar were outsold by competing Nintendo and Sega products and assume Atari was in bankruptcy throughout it's final ten years. But they had a solid 3rd place niche in the console/handheld gaming marketplace and achieved a lot of success in the PC world and exploiting it's past assets like the 2600 and it's valuable patents.

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post #108 of 112 Old 04-30-2010, 11:43 PM
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Are we in the alternate universe of Fringe??? I wish I lived there!

I was a diehard Atarian. And I wouldn't go so far as to say that the 7800, Lynx, and 2600 Jr were successful. 10 million 2600Jr sold????

Yes, 10 million 2600 Jr's. And I never argued that the 7800 and Lynx were successful. They were soundly beaten by the competition. But they did turn a profit for Atari. The 7800 was developed under Atari Inc. ownership through GCC and most of the games were programmed by GCC before Atari Corp. came around. All that was paid for by Atari Inc. and it's owner, Warner Communications. The Tramiels paid a very reasonable sum to purchase the home division (With Warner retaining stock options in Atari Corp.) since Warner wanted out due to the crash. So they inherited a console ready to go with a game library ready to be released, with thousands of units sitting in warehouses already manufactured when the console didn't get beyond small test launches in 1984 due to the industry imploding. And the Lynx did very well for for a short time (Much like the Dreamcast did) and helped fill Atari's pockets for a couple of years before it became a lost cause due to Nintendo's huge success with the Game Boy.

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Atari did not get rich from their lawsuits. they kept talking about how these cross-licensing agreements with Sega, etc. would result in Sonic coming to the Jag. it did nothing. just some hush money from Sega that barely kept them afloat.

Atari made millions off lawsuits, including settling out of court with Sega over controller ports. Even though no Sega properties ever showed up on the Jag and no Atari Corp. games were ported to Sega platforms like the settlment called for, it was still a financially attractive settlement which Atari enjoyed several of during the early 90s. Like it or not, but when Atari Corp. turned the lights off in 1996, they did so with their bills fully paid and with millions in the bank due to several things like their strong computer business during most of Atari Corp's lifespan. The attractive bank account was the only reason JTS wanted it when the Tramiels wanted to close up shop when they realized they were at a dead end.

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all the game developers talked about how hard it was to get paid by Atari. and how payment was always late.

If Atari was having trouble paying it's bills, there's no hint of it in this payment schedule from August 1995.

http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogame...4-payments.PDF

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They didn't even have enough money to design a new case for the Atari Falcon so they just colored the ST case dark gray!

The Atari Falcon had a new case. The exterior design of the Playstation 2 was actually even patterned after it.

Edit - I was thinking of the never mass produced Atari Falcon 040. so you aren't incorrect. The Falcon 030 did indeed use ST styling. Sorry about that. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/...0_microbox.jpg
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post #109 of 112 Old 05-01-2010, 02:43 AM
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Who made pong? That was the first game I ever played...and it was awesome.
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post #110 of 112 Old 05-01-2010, 05:42 AM
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It's funny looking over that list.
The only two companies still in business are acclaim (Or did they just go bust) and activision......

High voltage sound famailar but I might be thinking of a linkin park song.
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post #111 of 112 Old 05-01-2010, 07:39 AM
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That Acclaim died in 04. The new Acclaim just bought the name like Infograms did with Atari.
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post #112 of 112 Old 05-01-2010, 03:10 PM
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Who made pong? That was the first game I ever played...and it was awesome.

Most of the actual technical work seems to have been done by Allan Alcorn, with Ted Dabney and Nolan Bushnell also involved in other aspects of the project. Also some credit is due to Ralph Baer for the inspiration Bushnell had to improve upon a ball/paddle game after attending a prerelease demonstration of Baer's Magnavox Odyssey.
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