Microsoft Xbox 360 Kinect Official Thread - Page 16 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 06:47 AM
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Thing that concerns me i about all these reviews is how everyone seems to be having space issues. I can't believe that MS designed something with these kinds of space requirements. No wonder they didn't want reviews coming out early. I'm locked into getting one now because I've traded my wife's Wii in for it and she wants a work out game. We do not have a lot of room, our house isn't that big and I'm not rearranging furniture just for my game console.

Sorry MS, you should have used a wider angle lens because we are not all billionaires like you guys. Everyone doesn't live in mansions and most people have more than one piece of furniture in their living rooms.

This is not a good sign but, it is too late to get the Wii and all the Wii games back without having to spend a whole lot more money. I have a feeling this thing will be collecting just as much dust as the Wii did, at least until we can afford a new Kinect compatible house.

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post #452 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 06:51 AM
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You have to remember these reviewers are by and large living in small apartments and demo rooms in the office where the space needed is an acutal issue.... I think if you have a real house and the recommended 6-8 ft you will be fine. If you have less it could be a problem.


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Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

Here's a six page review from Ars Technica.

Verdict is skip (for now). Reading this review made sure my credit card stays in my wallet.

I personally would not let one review color my impressions one way or the other.... gotta take the metacritic model to this and throw out the worst and best few reviews (USA Today, MSNBC, NYT are all particularly glowing and I throw those out as well). Too much variance can happen especially with a device like kinect that can color a reviewers opinion.
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post #453 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 07:23 AM
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I think I'm going to wait until Q1/Q2 2011 when they will have worked out technical issues and have more/better games on offer. It will be clearer then to see if Move or Kinect are better overall. Have fun, pre-order guinea pigs!

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post #454 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 07:32 AM
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I had no problem getting one at Best Buy when they opened. Only one other person buying, and he was getting the console/kinect bundle. He almost accidentally bought an extra kinect. LOL Granted he was an old guy who was probably buying for kids or perhaps grandkids.

They had probably two or three dozen on the floor. I don't know if they had more in the back, but I'd think if you want one, you can find one pretty easily today.

Now I just have to wait until I get off to set it up and try it out. I'll read some more reviews and maybe swing by Target on my way home to get a three-for-two deal. I think I definitely want Sports. I also want Your Shape, but I think my confined space won't support that one. It sounds like it needs more than 6' and I am lucky if I have even 6' to work with. I'm not a dancer by any means, but reading reviews of Dance Central tempts me to pick that one up.

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post #455 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 07:46 AM
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Table Tennis is fun, but I had a hard time figuring out how much control I had over where the ball went. With Table Tennis using the Move I could make the paddle swing any way I wanted, and move it around in all three dimensions. Kinect lacks that kind of precision; all you can do is swing, and the game takes care of the rest.

That's what I feared. Kinect only sees a blob for an arm, so any fine control or spin is out. Every game is going to be made for limb motion, which is too shallow.

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post #456 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:04 AM
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The Kinect camera can't see individual fingers and that's not going to change until they change the hardware. As the ArsTechnica review points out, that's why so many games are so similar. At least with the Wii you had Zelda: Twilight Princess, Excite Trucks, etc., on day one. With the Kinect it's all dancing/minigame/stand-in-one-place-and-flail-around games.
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post #457 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:07 AM
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After reading some professional and user reviews I decided to not accept my UPS shipment and send it back. I'll wait until it has some time to mature before making a purchase. I could use the $200 in other places right now.
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post #458 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:15 AM
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The Verdict

So we've come to the real question: Should you buy Kinect? Well, that depends on what sort of person you are. If you're the sort of person fascinated by new technology, who needs to be on the cutting edge of gaming, Kinect is worth your time. Some of the games are genuinely fun and you may get some use out of video chat. It's also extremely cool tech and the experience of playing it is unlike anything I've seen before.

On the flip-side, if you're a non-gamer who bought the Wii a few years ago to play "Wii Sports" and "Wii Fit," but you haven't touched the console in months, you should skip out on Kinect, as it's likely to gather even more dust in your apartment.

As for the hardcore gamers, you should wait it out. Despite the cool tech, none of the launch games are going to be anything you'll be playing a month from now, and there's no top-tier, first-party title like a "Gears of War" or a "Legend of Zelda" to entice you. Those games may be coming in the future, but for right now you should feel safe in knowing that you're not missing out.

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post #459 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

The Kinect camera can't see individual fingers and that's not going to change until they change the hardware. As the ArsTechnica review points out, that's why so many games are so similar. At least with the Wii you had Zelda: Twilight Princess, Excite Trucks, etc., on day one. With the Kinect it's all dancing/minigame/stand-in-one-place-and-flail-around games.

That has very little to do with the hardware itself. The software is lagging behind the hardware at this point. The software will evolve over time, SDK, Dashboard UI, etc.
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post #460 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:24 AM
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I was very excited about Kinect, but decided just to hold off on it. I was mostly excited about the menu navigation and stuff, but now that I've switched to the PS3 for Netflix (for 1080p and 5.1), even that doesn't interest me on the 360 now, at least until Netflix on 360 catches up to the PS3.

Right now if I wanted a motion control thing, I'd go for the Move on PS3 (since it offers more precise controls for "hardcore" games, but I'm still not getting it either). I think the Kinect will connect (heh) with the casual market more, which is what MS is aiming for, so in that regard I think they did a good job.

I'll re-evaluate in awhile as more games and features come out for it.
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post #461 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

Table Tennis is fun, but I had a hard time figuring out how much control I had over where the ball went. With Table Tennis using the Move I could make the paddle swing any way I wanted, and move it around in all three dimensions. Kinect lacks that kind of precision; all you can do is swing, and the game takes care of the rest.

That's what I feared. Kinect only sees a blob for an arm, so any fine control or spin is out. Every game is going to be made for limb motion, which is too shallow.

This is not true. I can hit either corners and I can hit a topspin or backspin shots. And it is quite satisfying to hit a smash.
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post #462 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by spid View Post

That has very little to do with the hardware itself. The software is lagging behind the hardware at this point. The software will evolve over time, SDK, Dashboard UI, etc.

Some things can evolve but the hardware can't. The depth sensor camera only captures at 320x240, too low-res to capture individual fingers. We'll see what happens but software cannot override limitations of hardware.
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post #463 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:37 AM
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This is not true. I can hit either corners and I can hit a topspin or backspin shots. And it is quite satisfying to hit a smash.

That was the Ars review. Have you tried playing with a fist? There are several tests you can invent to see how much is you and how much is the auto pilot of the game.

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post #464 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

Some things can evolve but the hardware can't. The depth sensor camera only captures at 320x240, too low-res to capture individual fingers. We'll see what happens but software cannot override limitations of hardware.

It is unlikely that Kinect will ever capture finger movements. It can't really capture the rotation of the arms/hands either.

But there are other even more advanced stuff that it is capable of and they will be coming in the future.
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post #465 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:39 AM
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Well I never bought a Wii but have played it as well as my wife. She loved it and was very into the bowling. This thing is really aimed at casual gamers and family fun. My reason for purchase was really for my wife and son. She doesnt have the time to go to a gym and the workout games are perfect for her. I am really enjoying the Kinect so far and I think it has a lot of possibilites as well. I think it will only get better over time. Not to mention we havent seen the Star Wars game or even Steel Battalions. Heres a couple of answers for some questions:

The Kinect comes with a cable & power supply for new & older xbox's. So it doesnt matter which one you have but if you have the Slim you dont need to use the power supply.

The TV mount didnt work for me due to it being a DLP and the screws were too far back for it to flush the top of the screen. I ended up using velcro that came from my IPASS and works just fine.


If your a hardcore gamer thats playing MW2, BC2 and Fable this might not be your thing.

You cannot use hand gestures through the whole dashboard only the Kinect Hub part. Voice commands work very well though.


Heres the thing too. When you play table tennis or any other Avatar type game you have to learn to adapt. What I mean is you have to learn how to use your avatar and not try to respond with it using your body as a source.
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post #466 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

That was the Ars review. Have you tried playing with a fist? There are several tests you can invent to see how much is you and how much is the auto pilot of the game.

I have been playing with it for awhile now. Like I said, I can hit the corners at will. It is all about moving the entire arm and not trying to use just a wrist. Volleyball is much tougher with finer control, but ping pong is pretty good.

The game will recognize shot to the corners and topspin and underspin. I can even do a slice serve like I do with a real ping pong. I've played with ranked ping pong player and he was blown away how much he could control.
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post #467 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by gameboy View Post

It is unlikely that Kinect will ever capture finger movements. It can't really capture the rotation of the arms/hands either.

But there are other even more advanced stuff that it is capable of and they will be coming in the future.

Well then we can talk about that stuff later on, and maybe I'll buy it then. Actually I won't because I don't have room in my condo...
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post #468 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:44 AM
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If you have no intention of ever buying, why are you even here?
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post #469 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

Some things can evolve but the hardware can't. The depth sensor camera only captures at 320x240, too low-res to capture individual fingers. We'll see what happens but software cannot override limitations of hardware.

Except none of the limitations you mentioned really has much to do with real reason the launch lineup is made up of casual games. It has more to do with timing of the launch and Microsoft's SDK for Kinect.
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post #470 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post

Thing that concerns me i about all these reviews is how everyone seems to be having space issues. I can't believe that MS designed something with these kinds of space requirements. No wonder they didn't want reviews coming out early. I'm locked into getting one now because I've traded my wife's Wii in for it and she wants a work out game. We do not have a lot of room, our house isn't that big and I'm not rearranging furniture just for my game console.

Sorry MS, you should have used a wider angle lens because we are not all billionaires like you guys. Everyone doesn't live in mansions and most people have more than one piece of furniture in their living rooms.

This is not a good sign but, it is too late to get the Wii and all the Wii games back without having to spend a whole lot more money. I have a feeling this thing will be collecting just as much dust as the Wii did, at least until we can afford a new Kinect compatible house.

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post #471 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:03 AM
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I just CANNOT BELIEVE the space requirement...I remodeled my house 2 years ago and have a very spacious house...I have a 50" Panny plasma and my couch is 8 feet away - BECAUSE THAT IS THE OPTIMAL VIEWING DISTANCE FOR WATCHING TV/PLAYING GAMES...and I'm 6'3" so in order for me to play Kinect I have to push my couch back to a not so optimal tv viewing distance just to play Kinect?

I feel badly for all the casual gamers (which is the target group) that btw, do not tend to read reviews, will buy one of these having no clue that there is a distance requirement...they will be so confused trying to calibrate and use it...
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post #472 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:07 AM
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Okay so I guess the NDA is lifted and I can blab now

Some background:
I've been a Kinect "Beta Tester" (if you can call it that) since early July. I cannot go into the details behind how I acquired it 'early' and that all of my experience has been with Alpha/Beta software - Both systems and game demonstrations - I have yet to go out and purchase the final product of any games but will likely pick up a few either today or tommorow. I am what one would consider a casual-hardcore gamer, I don't really enjoy party games and the games I do enjoy are typically the ones which review extremely well and are consider must-haves. At 32 years of age, I've been gaming a good 25 of those.

I had a Wii, my experience with that system led me to believe that Motion-Controlled gaming was a gimmick used to "wow" people into buying generally crappy games and spend on accessories to enhance their experiences. I have not tried and refuse to try Playstation Move because I have seen nothing to believe that it is anything but a Wii clone with colored balls.

Also, I have twin two-year old (almost 3 year old) kids.

Kinect
I am a firm believer in that something isn't "High Tech" unless it seems like it's magic. To me, Kinect is magic- This is a rare thing for me to say having worked in the tech industry for over 10 years.

What you are getting is essentially a piece of hardware that Microsoft has thrown billions of dollars over decades to create. That may sound like BS to alot of you but if you think about it, Microsoft has thrown money at speech detection, recognition, facial recognition/biometric technologies, etc throughout years and years of research (Speech was in Windows 3.1!) They are some of the leading experts in this field and finally found an viable area where the apply these technologies and "change the game". It is this geek's hope that they expand this technology across a wide variety of entertainment devices. I truly believe the day where we don't have use physical devices (mice, keyboards, remotes, etc) to interact with our devices such as TVs, computers, laptops, phones, etc is just around the corner.

Setup
Setup of the device is simple. Plug it in. If you have an old 360, you'll need to use the USB dongle and plug it into the back of the unit. If you have an old 360 and Wireless adapter, you'll need to plug the wireless adapter into that dongle as well. Also with the old 360 you need to plug the Kinect device into a power outlet - New "360S" models have the 'AUX' port which kinect just plugs into, you do not need a seperate power source for it - the 360S will power the device through the AUX port.

The kinect calibration process is just a few steps of allowing the microphone to calibrate to the natural sounds of your home and living room, playing some test tones at normal volume levels, and then doing a quick detection by having you stand and walk through the UI. Then it's ready to go.


Speech Recognition
I was amazed at how well this works. I thought this would be the most 'broken' part of the experience however for me it's worked flawlessly. My only gripe with speech is that it doesnt work everywhere it should (e.g. DVD movie playback... rumor has it this is coming soon it was just not ready for prime time)

Standing Motion tracking
You can read many comments on how well this works. It works very well in it's current form, and will improve over time. The common gripe you're going to see on internet reviews, etc is that Kinect requires proper space to setup and work right. This is a true statement, you need room to play. playing games is not going to "work right" in your cramped bedroom or your tiny "living room" in a studio apartment. It's not realistic to expect it to do so either - most of the standing games require that you have room to move around - that's the point. While this may be a limitation of the current revision of the hardware, I firmly believe this limitation will be removed over time.

Sitting motion tracking
I was surprised at how well this works. Early on in the alpha/beta it was horrific, but it was one of those things that just gradually improved over time. While you shouldnt expect there will be a TON of 'games' that will allow you to play while seated, there will be some. I've used this mostly for navigating the UI, Zune, Video Kinect, etc.

Video Kinect
Yeah. It's video - chat that's been available on Messenger for years. and now you can do it in your living room by just launching an app - no need for a PC. and it's AWESOME. The camera tracks you as you move around, auto-zooming and panning to keep you in view - The A/V quality is awesome both going in and out of the XBOX. This is creepy star-trek cool in the sense that you can just bring others into your living room and talk with them. I can't wait to see how this technology eventually gets integrated into online multiplayer games.

Zune
It's zune. Kinectified. You can nav the UI with motion controls, or talk to it. You can play/stop/pause/skip, etc with your voice. You still have to buy/rent movies

ESPN
Like zune, but sports. I'm not a huge sports fan, so I don't really have much to say here

Netflix
Doesn't work with Kinect and doesn't support 1080p or 5.1 surround. I suspect this app will get an update soon

Kinect Adventures (BETA/DEMO)
This was alot of fun being able to control your avatar with your hands, legs and by jumping up and down. It's not a game with a ton of replay value but demonstrations the physical movement detection capabilities of the device

Kinect Sports (BETA/DEMO)
I loved Table Tennis, Bowling and the Javelin. This is going to be a purchase for me.

Dance Central (BETA/DEMO)
The current 'Must have' for any kinect owner. I don't dance. This game makes me dance. I find it oddly fun. I just refuse to do it with other people present.

Your Shape: Fitness Evolved (BETA/DEMO)
Lots of potential for a fitness game, however the demo I tried just had you punching blocks. I also didnt get the orange sillouette - its very distracting. I understand why they use your physical representation vs your avatar (for heigh/weight/distance calculations) but the color and implementation of this is just weird

Joyride (BETA/DEMO)
This was the least favorite of the demo apps. Why would I stand, and pretend I'm driving a car, and do unnatural movements to perform tricks, etc? I think this game would be better reviewed by a five year old

Small Children experience
My kids don't play games due to their age - they arent really at the point where they understand the concept well. But we were able to mess around with some of the test / diagnostic applications and they had a blast making their avatars wave and wobble around, etc. Endless entertainment there just watching them and I was amazed that the device could unique identify my small critters out of a room and accurately track them for the most part

Should you get one
Depends. If you don't have the room and are looking to play games - NO. If you don't have the room but want the Video Chat, Motion Detection and Speech Recognition capabilities - Maybe - If you have the room - YES. If you have the room and want to have alot of fun with friends/family over - Definately.
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post #473 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:08 AM
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My couch is about 8 to 10 ft away and it works fine. But then again, I am not 6'3"

One thing you can do is to install the device much higher (higher than recommended 6 feet) at an angle pointing down. That will lessen the required distance. Only bad thing about that setup is that it will have a harder time recognizing children under 4 feet.
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post #474 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

The Kinect camera can't see individual fingers and that's not going to change until they change the hardware. As the ArsTechnica review points out, that's why so many games are so similar. At least with the Wii you had Zelda: Twilight Princess, Excite Trucks, etc., on day one. With the Kinect it's all dancing/minigame/stand-in-one-place-and-flail-around games.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the hardware, it's the detection software algorithm parsing the data send by the hardware that has yet to be perfected to the point where the company can release an SDK to game developers to make use of it.
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post #475 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:12 AM
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That's what I feared. Kinect only sees a blob for an arm, so any fine control or spin is out. Every game is going to be made for limb motion, which is too shallow.

topspin is induced by a upward motion. slice is by a downward motion.
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post #476 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pdawg17 View Post

I just CANNOT BELIEVE the space requirement...I remodeled my house 2 years ago and have a very spacious house...I have a 50" Panny plasma and my couch is 8 feet away - BECAUSE THAT IS THE OPTIMAL VIEWING DISTANCE FOR WATCHING TV/PLAYING GAMES...and I'm 6'3" so in order for me to play Kinect I have to push my couch back to a not so optimal tv viewing distance just to play Kinect?

I feel badly for all the casual gamers (which is the target group) that btw, do not tend to read reviews, will buy one of these having no clue that there is a distance requirement...they will be so confused trying to calibrate and use it...

Have you tried it in your house? I have about the same amount of distance, a 50" plasma and I am 6'1. Works fine for me.
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post #477 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pdawg17 View Post

I just CANNOT BELIEVE the space requirement...I remodeled my house 2 years ago and have a very spacious house...I have a 50" Panny plasma and my couch is 8 feet away - BECAUSE THAT IS THE OPTIMAL VIEWING DISTANCE FOR WATCHING TV/PLAYING GAMES...and I'm 6'3" so in order for me to play Kinect I have to push my couch back to a not so optimal tv viewing distance just to play Kinect?

I knew about the space ask before I bought it (it's being shipped), but I'm curious to hear more about your experience. I'm a bit in the same boat as you, 50" Panny plasma, 6'4", but my couch is right at 7 feet away and can't be moved (it's against the wall).

Is your Kinect working for you?

-JR
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post #478 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by gameboy View Post

My couch is about 8 to 10 ft away and it works fine. But then again, I am not 6'3"

One thing you can do is to install the device much higher (higher than recommended 6 feet) at an angle pointing down. That will lessen the required distance. Only bad thing about that setup is that it will have a harder time recognizing children under 4 feet.

2 problems: I have 2 kids under 4 feet and I have a center channel above the tv which from what I understand is not good to have right next to the Kinect...

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Originally Posted by darthjames View Post

Have you tried it in your house? I have about the same amount of distance, a 50" plasma and I am 6'1. Works fine for me.

Do you have your Kinect above or below the tv? Mine would have to go below...

I will still probably try one but I will definitely keep the receipt firmly in my hand...
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post #479 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JuiceRocket View Post

I knew about the space ask before I bought it (it's being shipped), but I'm curious to hear more about your experience. I'm a bit in the same boat as you, 50" Panny plasma, 6'4", but my couch is right at 7 feet away and can't be moved (it's against the wall).

Is your Kinect working for you?

-JR

Sorry but I haven't gotten one yet ...my rant was more due to being nervous about all the reports I keep reading from website reviews and users...even if it does work though I have an L-shaped couch and would need to stand at best 2 feet in front of the couch which means the side piece will be just to the right of me sticking out...
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post #480 of 1759 Old 11-04-2010, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by pdawg17 View Post

2 problems: I have 2 kids under 4 feet and I have a center channel above the tv which from what I understand is not good to have right next to the Kinect...



Do you have your Kinect above or below the tv? Mine would have to go below...

I will still probably try one but I will definitely keep the receipt firmly in my hand...

I currently have it just below my TV, about 1" above my center channel (yes, speech works...) - I may purchase a mount and put it above as it is kind of blocking the IR receptor on my TV's remote and I have to 'angle' it.. annoying. But it works at it's current position just fine.
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