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post #9901 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 08:56 AM
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W&Z weren't just instrumental in the creation of CoD they ARE the creators! And this isn't some disgruntled employee rebelling against his employer it's a developer that was fighting to retain control of a property that they felt was (and this is the argument in court right now) legally and contractually theirs against a powerful publisher that realized it was actually more profitable to steal the property and deal with the legal fall out than to allow these two men carte blanche!

I TOTALLY understand activision's point of view-- they had a sure fire sensation on their hands and they knew Zap and West were going to demand the bonuses outlined in their contract and were going to squeeze them for every dime in the negotiation of their new contract! Absolutely W & Z were using their talent and their property (and mw3) as leverage to get what they want-- that's the way ALL negotiations go down! When I'm hired by someone I use my experience, accomplishments and education to help negotiate the wage I will be paid-- unfortunately I'm not a fortune 500 CEO or a 7' basketball player or a rock star video game developer! Lol!

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post #9902 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 09:21 AM
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Well...there's a contradiction there.

Either it's about creative freedom and they just wanted to do something other than cod. Or it's about money and they just wanted to squeeze activision for more money to make mw3. Both can't be true.

Or maybe they were so high on themselves they thought they could squeeze activision for more money AND make whatever game they damn well pleased AND hold cod hostage in the meanwhile. They may have created cod, but they didn't do it in their basement. They couldn't have done it without activision. Maybe they felt it was still theirs to withhold, maybe even contractually it was....but when you make unreasonable demands, you can't expect a reasonable response.

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post #9903 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jammybastard View Post

The latest on the lawsuit between the former IW heads and Activision...very interesting. Further evidence of why MW3 is a steaming pile.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featur...n-lawsuit.aspx


It's hardly a "steaming pile" and it's the first CoD I have played past the 6th Prestige. I think it's better than West and Zampella's MW2, with fewer glitches and more balance.

We'll never know if a MW3 with West and Zampella running IW would be better, but MW3 is still a successful and fun title with arguably better support from THIS iteration of IW, than MW2 got from the "all-star team" IW.

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post #9904 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 10:12 AM
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I think it would have been categorically worse, given how adamantly they didn't want to make it. Nothing good could have come out of that.

Only activision really knows the depth...but I think MW3 was primarily a sledgehammer joint. They just kept IWs name on it while they rebuilt that studio. IW probably contributed a good amount, as did raven (responsible for a lot, maybe all of the DLC for blops and mw3), but I think the direction came primarily from SH. When west and zampella left they absolutely gutted that place of all it's talent. I can't imagine they could have rebuilt that quickly.

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post #9905 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 10:19 AM
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Lol! Bd-- that's exactly what I'm suggesting! Zap and West wanted control, they wanted freedom and they wanted to do whatever the hell they pleased and they felt that after 4 blockbuster games they had the clout to demand it-- unfortunately for them they underestimated the depths their publisher would sink to wrest control of this money machine away from them.
Who's to say what they would have done! Maybe they go right back to CoD and make MW3 and it's amazing and new and fresh! Maybe they go ahead with a new IP-- maybe it's better than CoD or revolutionizes the genre or maybe it just falls flat as an experiment gone awry.
The question isn't what they do it's who was 'right'. If Zap and West had control of the property as they say they do then activision was in breach of contract and stole this franchise out from under them. If they didn't then they were just two guys who's hubris got the best of them and activision decided that they were better off paying legal fees than paying the salaries that Zap and West were demanding.

Please don't take any offense to this but I feel with the statements you've made you've never been in a labor dispute or had something taken away from you that was owed and had to fight to get it back. Employers will do anything to pay you less than you're owed! Salary is the largest expense a company can control and it sounds like Zap and West were planning to shake the money tree! They made activision desperate and in desperate times a company without strong ethical leadership will throw 'right' right out the window!

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post #9906 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 10:21 AM
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I agree and although I can respect them wanting to do something other than CoD games, I think the old IW braintrust made a huge miscalculation and mistake in not continuing with the CoD series like Activision wanted them to. If you're hired by a company to make the games, make the games, especially when they are this valuable to all parties involved.

I certainly am sympathetic and I understand their desires, but as someone else said, the series had taken off so greatly that Activision would have been fools to let them just move on to something else. I'm no fan of Bobby Kotick, no fan at all really, but in this case, it made sense not only financially, but logically, to want them to maintain focus on the Call of Duty franchise.

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post #9907 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 10:35 AM
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Lol! Bd-- that's exactly what I'm suggesting! Zap and West wanted control, they wanted freedom and they wanted to do whatever the hell they pleased and they felt that after 4 blockbuster games they had the clout to demand it-- unfortunately for them they underestimated the depths their publisher would sink to wrest control of this money machine away from them.
Who's to say what they would have done! Maybe they go right back to CoD and make MW3 and it's amazing and new and fresh! Maybe they go ahead with a new IP-- maybe it's better than CoD or revolutionizes the genre or maybe it just falls flat as an experiment gone awry.
The question isn't what they do it's who was 'right'. If Zap and West had control of the property as they say they do then activision was in breach of contract and stole this franchise out from under them. If they didn't then they were just two guys who's hubris got the best of them and activision decided that they were better off paying legal fees than paying the salaries that Zap and West were demanding.

Please don't take any offense to this but I feel with the statements you've made you've never been in a labor dispute or had something taken away from you that was owed and had to fight to get it back. Employers will do anything to pay you less than you're owed! Salary is the largest expense a company can control and it sounds like Zap and West were planning to shake the money tree! They made activision desperate and in desperate times a company without strong ethical leadership will throw 'right' right out the window!

Yeah...I mean we don't really disagree. I just don't think we have enough facts or inside information to declare who's right or who's wrong, and even so....its probably not that black and white anyway. Nothing ever is.

By instinct it's easy to categorize this as the big guy taking advantage of the little guy, because that kinda thing happens all the time. If it was that cut and dry, then sure....**** activision. But it seems like both sides are playing ugly. The judge will sort it out. Until then....this is some entertaining stuff. A lot of dirty laundry getting aired out, somehow contracts between MS and bungie are involved....I'm sure it'll get even better before its all over.

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post #9908 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 10:42 AM
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I agree and although I can respect them wanting to do something other than CoD games, I think the old IW braintrust made a huge miscalculation and mistake in not continuing with the CoD series like Activision wanted them to. If you're hired by a company to make the games, make the games, especially when they are this valuable to all parties involved.

I certainly am sympathetic and I understand their desires, but as someone else said, the series had taken off so greatly that Activision would have been fools to let them just move on to something else. I'm no fan of Bobby Kotick, no fan at all really, but in this case, it made sense not only financially, but logically, to want them to maintain focus on the Call of Duty franchise.

The law won't care about what was or wasn't the sound financial decision-- the law will care about the contract, it's stipulations and ultimately the ownership of the IP.

Personally I could care less if they bury activision in fines and damages and piss all over the CoD franchise. At this point 3arc could make any FPS under any title and I would trust them to make a top-notch quality game. In fact, I almost feel as if the CoD title could one day hamper them as there are certain expectations about what is and isn't a CoD game...
Similarly for Sledgehammer. This is a group of guys (stolen from EA, btw) that made one of my favorite games of all time: Dead Space. Now you're telling me that all that talent will be wasted on pumping out carbon copies of MW2 for the next 5 years?? What a waste.

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post #9909 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 10:49 AM
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Similarly for Sledgehammer. This is a group of guys (stolen from EA, btw) that made one of my favorite games of all time: Dead Space. Now you're telling me that all that talent will be wasted on pumping out carbon copies of MW2 for the next 5 years?? What a waste.

money talks.. long as you guys line up in hives to buy them, they will keep making them.
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post #9910 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 10:54 AM
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Yeah...I mean we don't really disagree. I just don't think we have enough facts or inside information to declare who's right or who's wrong, and even so....its probably not that black and white anyway. Nothing ever is.

By instinct it's easy to categorize this as the big guy taking advantage of the little guy, because that kinda thing happens all the time. If it was that cut and dry, then sure....**** activision. But it seems like both sides are playing ugly. The judge will sort it out. Until then....this is some entertaining stuff. A lot of dirty laundry getting aired out, somehow contracts between MS and bungie are involved....I'm sure it'll get even better before its all over.

Yes, I agree-- this is going to get dragged through the mud again and again before anything is able to come from it! Lol!
You're one of the few around here that a guy can have a legitimate argument with who doesn't take it personally so I thank you for that.

I think the Bungie thing really has to do with Activision taking them on as a developer. Bringing in talent like that-- especially as they could be considered direct competitors to IW-- had to raise a few eye brows. Not that they couldn't coexist under the same publisher but if I'm activision and 3arc has shown me that they can competently make blockbuster CoDs and I now have Bungie in my stable then suddenly Zap and West don't look so vital anymore! Lol! Those guys had to see the writing on the wall... It's like you're a basketball team being raked over the coals in contract negotiations by your best player and all of a sudden you sign lebron james! I'm sorry, how much were you asking for again? Lol!
Understand, I never said Zap and West were smart-- just going for what they felt they deserved. Now it's up to the court to decide who was right!

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post #9911 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 11:15 AM
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The law won't care about what was or wasn't the sound financial decision-- the law will care about the contract, it's stipulations and ultimately the ownership of the IP.

Personally I could care less if they bury activision in fines and damages and piss all over the CoD franchise. At this point 3arc could make any FPS under any title and I would trust them to make a top-notch quality game. In fact, I almost feel as if the CoD title could one day hamper them as there are certain expectations about what is and isn't a CoD game...
Similarly for Sledgehammer. This is a group of guys (stolen from EA, btw) that made one of my favorite games of all time: Dead Space. Now you're telling me that all that talent will be wasted on pumping out carbon copies of MW2 for the next 5 years?? What a waste.

I don't consider it a waste, the CoD series is my favorite game series, it's what I play more than anything else on consoles (I play a lot of Company of Heroes, Diablo 3, and Civ V on the PC), so I want the franchise to continue to have a quality game every fall.

It kind of bothers me that it's become de rigueur to bash the CoD games or label them as junk/trash/whatever (not saying you're calling them that) when millions of people have months or years worth of enjoyment out of the games. I find things like JRPG's to be not only weird, but boring, but I won't go so far as to label them junk because I know a lot of people find them incredibly enjoying. I wish games like the Call of Duty's could get the same treatment.

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post #9912 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 11:26 AM
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I can agree. I mostly love CoD but for whatever reason the last two just rubbed me the wrong way. I've come to appreciate blops for what it is-- namely NOT an IW modern warfare game. But MW3 is just a lot of the same. It feels like they're trying (very hard I should add) to make the BEST mw2 clone they can make. Which would be awesome in my mind as MW2 was my favorite multi player CoD (yeah, I said it) but something is... Missing.

People are always going to hate when it looks like their being taken advantage of. Activision is raking in the dough like nothing else and yet the games are starting to stagnate a bit. Of course at the same time people are bitching they're also buying so... Lol! I mean, I spent 100 dollars on MW3 and I bitch about it all the time!

Don't ask for it to make sense just accept that, in the words of Lebron James: haters gonna hate!

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post #9913 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 11:29 AM
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I doubt sledgehammer/IW is going to be as conservative with their next release. MW2.5 was all they could reasonably be expected to pull off, given the chaos and learning curve they went through. IMO it was better in the end that they were less ambitious....I certainly got exactly what I wanted out of it, a fixed and updated MW2. It could have been catastrophic if they bit off more than they could chew with a mouth full of broken and missing teeth.

Treyarch hasn't had those limitations, I expect much more progress from blops 1-2 than from mw2-3. So far, that's what we're seeing.

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post #9914 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 05:30 PM
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Well...there's a contradiction there.

Either it's about creative freedom and they just wanted to do something other than cod. Or it's about money and they just wanted to squeeze activision for more money to make mw3. Both can't be true.

Or maybe they were so high on themselves they thought they could squeeze activision for more money AND make whatever game they damn well pleased AND hold cod hostage in the meanwhile. They may have created cod, but they didn't do it in their basement. They couldn't have done it without activision. Maybe they felt it was still theirs to withhold, maybe even contractually it was....but when you make unreasonable demands, you can't expect a reasonable response.

Don't assume they're mutually exclusive positions, they can both can be simultaneously true. There's contracts, and then there's INTERPRETATION of contracts. Both parties have hired reputable firms, and in the end it'll probably work out ok for both of them. When long-term relationships like that end, they usually end bad(or else they wouldn't be ending in the 1st place). Peter jackson went through a similar thing between he the studios and after the great success of LOTR trilogy, and now they're working together again on the Hobbit. If W and Z go on to do something great like COD, it'll force the current shooters to step up and hopefully we'll get an even better product!

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post #9915 of 10486 Old 05-25-2012, 05:32 PM
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money talks.. long as you guys line up in hives to buy them, they will keep making them.

Well, that's the point isn't it? They wouldn't spend their time/resources making a game most people wouldn't buy...

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post #9916 of 10486 Old 05-27-2012, 03:29 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM4RQHgYpow&sns=em

Lol! I ****ing love this guy...

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post #9917 of 10486 Old 05-29-2012, 08:08 AM
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Wasn't there an upcoming patch regarding the netcode/lag or did i miss it???


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post #9918 of 10486 Old 05-29-2012, 08:45 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM4RQHgYpow&sns=em

Lol! I ****ing love this guy...

yup, he's the best.
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post #9919 of 10486 Old 05-29-2012, 09:31 AM
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Interesting read.

Frankly Activision sounds like the a$$hole bullies that only care about the $$ (as we all know) but seriously W&Z come off sounding like wise a$$ douches to me.

I think the 38 other people who got fired, left, not paid etc are really the ones who got screwed over the most.

Ehh what do I know, time to move along.

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post #9920 of 10486 Old 05-29-2012, 09:59 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM4RQHgYpow&sns=em

Lol! I ****ing love this guy...

I dont get it.

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post #9921 of 10486 Old 05-29-2012, 10:43 AM
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I dont get it.

Get this... after months of waiting it has shipped


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post #9922 of 10486 Old 05-29-2012, 10:58 AM
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I dont get it.

Ditto.

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post #9923 of 10486 Old 05-29-2012, 02:03 PM
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I hope they don't pull a drop zone and remove the 3v3 faceoff playlist. The other two modes just seem too empty to me, but 3v3 is awesome.

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post #9924 of 10486 Old 06-04-2012, 08:29 AM
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This thread is not allowed to die.

I've been playing a lot of Diablo 3, but still think there should be some planned gatherings for us all to kill each other once in a while.

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post #9925 of 10486 Old 06-04-2012, 09:03 AM
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This thread is not allowed to die.

I've been playing a lot of Diablo 3, but still think there should be some planned gatherings for us all to kill each other once in a while.

Every time I get on no one is
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post #9926 of 10486 Old 06-04-2012, 09:04 AM
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Every time I get on no one is

I'm on at least 4 nights a week!

...playing black ops.

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post #9927 of 10486 Old 06-04-2012, 09:40 AM
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y'all go to bed to early, I can't usually get on for any stretch of time until 9ish PST.

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post #9928 of 10486 Old 06-04-2012, 09:59 AM
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Since the latest update this game has become close to unplayable (for me). Almost broke the controller last night.

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post #9929 of 10486 Old 06-04-2012, 10:17 AM
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Every time I get on no one is

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y'all go to bed to early, I can't usually get on for any stretch of time until 9ish PST.

Same here General - we're time zone challenged.
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post #9930 of 10486 Old 06-04-2012, 11:27 AM
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Same here General - we're time zone challenged.

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