The Official Xbox 360 Dashboard/Update Thread - Page 21 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-29-2011, 03:26 PM
 
darklordjames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 93
You cannot connect to Live without updating. You cannot purchase video without being connected to Live.
darklordjames is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-29-2011, 06:16 PM
Advanced Member
 
fahrenheit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I can live with video playback being 'borked' for the time being as I do not use my 360s for media duties. However, I'm concerned that in-game FMV (which is generally Bink Video) might also be affected.
fahrenheit is online now  
Old 12-29-2011, 07:20 PM
 
darklordjames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 93
All in-game video playback is borked, regardless of your settings. You can set your 360 to Intermediate for reference to get Netflix/etc video working "close enough", then you can play with in-game brightness to get game rendering "close enough", but then game FMV is super washed out. Playing Rage today, the intro video of an asteroid attacking Earth had the lightest gray version of SPACE that I have ever seen.
darklordjames is offline  
Old 12-29-2011, 07:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
fahrenheit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

All in-game video playback is borked, regardless of your settings. You can set your 360 to Intermediate for reference to get Netflix/etc video working "close enough", then you can play with in-game brightness to get game rendering "close enough", but then game FMV is super washed out. Playing Rage today, the intro video of an asteroid attacking Earth had the lightest gray version of SPACE that I have ever seen.

Gah! Terrible.

This whole issue has had very poor traction. Mainstream media can't get their heads around it and there is nothing in the way of effective (moving) examples of what is occuring.

I might have to get my video camera out and try and do a side by side comparison. Just need some appropriate source material. Left 4 Dead anyone?
fahrenheit is online now  
Old 12-29-2011, 10:03 PM
 
darklordjames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 93
"I might have to get my video camera out and try and do a side by side comparison."

Unless you have a moderately fancy camera, and have all auto-adjustment features for both the camera and the TV turned off, video taping the screen will show nothing. The camera will naturally want to try and set the blackest reference point to black, meaning black will be black in one test, then dark gray will record as black in another test. It's the same problem that people run in to when trying to take pictures of their displays with a point-n-shoot still camera.

Direct HDMI capture is about the only way to get reliable results that mean anything.
darklordjames is offline  
Old 12-29-2011, 10:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
msgohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,856
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
What's the trick to getting AVS HD 709 to play on the 360? I'd like to take some screenshots before updating but the Xbox refuses to play the MP4 files; tried on USB and DVDRW. Manufacture date is 2011-08-16 so I don't see why it's claiming I need to update.

So far I've only been able to play WMV files.
LL
LL
LL
msgohan is offline  
Old 12-29-2011, 10:33 PM
 
darklordjames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 93
You need the codec pack, otherwise known as the Media Update that it is referring to. You need to be signed in to Live to download that. You need to have the newest dashboard to sign in to Live.
darklordjames is offline  
Old 12-29-2011, 10:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
fahrenheit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"I might have to get my video camera out and try and do a side by side comparison."

Unless you have a moderately fancy camera, and have all auto-adjustment features for both the camera and the TV turned off, video taping the screen will show nothing. The camera will naturally want to try and set the blackest reference point to black, meaning black will be black in one test, then dark gray will record as black in another test. It's the same problem that people run in to when trying to take pictures of their displays with a point-n-shoot still camera.

Direct HDMI capture is about the only way to get reliable results that mean anything.

Why don't you hold off on the critiques until something is actually submitted.
Don't worry. This isn't my first dance...
fahrenheit is online now  
Old 12-29-2011, 11:16 PM
 
darklordjames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 93
"Why don't you hold off on the critiques until something is actually submitted."

No need, because I already know that without extremely excessive documentation, the results are untrustworthy.
darklordjames is offline  
Old 12-29-2011, 11:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
msgohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,856
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

You need the codec pack, otherwise known as the Media Update that it is referring to. You need to be signed in to Live to download that. You need to have the newest dashboard to sign in to Live.

Well that's annoying. Thanks for the explanation.
msgohan is offline  
Old 12-30-2011, 02:46 AM
Advanced Member
 
fahrenheit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

All in-game video playback is borked, regardless of your settings.

This isn't the case with L4D 2.

The opening cinematic is Bink Video and shows no discernible differences between the NXE and Metro. I don't own Rage, so I cannot test it but I will look for other examples.
fahrenheit is online now  
Old 12-30-2011, 05:58 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,851
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 460 Post(s)
Liked: 1464
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

This isn't the case with L4D 2.

The opening cinematic is Bink Video and shows no discernible differences between the NXE and Metro. I don't own Rage, so I cannot test it but I will look for other examples.

L4D2 is probably a bad choice to use to test. Valve games are the only ones I know of that allow you to change the levels from TV to PC in the options. I don't know how that interacts with the 360's setting. It might be able to override whatever the new dash is screwing up for everything else.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is online now  
Old 12-30-2011, 07:31 AM
Senior Member
 
switch42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Briant73 View Post

Ok have an xbox 360 and a 60" Sharp le832u set and noticing an issue playing Skyrim and the hdmi reference levels. What I notice is anytime i change the Ref levels from standard to either intermediate or expanded I notice an issue where I see an effect when moving around in the game. The effect is like a quick blue shimmering that is there for a second/slight trailing and then gone. I see this around characters and also at times buildings and such when panning around my characters view (the scene in the keep during the beginning shows it off well). Expanded looks much nicer than standard so I rather use expanded but the effect is annoying enough I might switch. I also tested Battlefield 3 between standard and expanded on operation gullitone and noticed two things in expanded when loading the mission the screen blinks constantly (standard it's solid only the loading square blinks) and when panning/moving players had a purplish outline which they didn't have in standard mode. BF3 in intermediate mode didn't seem to have the issues of expanded either but i just quickly checked. I also swapped hdmi cables just in case and no difference from earlier results.

My other xbox display settings are :
1080p
color space = source
display discovery = enable

My sharp settings are - av mode=game, dot by dot, quad pixel off.

Is this an xbox 360 bug, an issue with my display, or something with my other display settings?

UPDATE 12/28/2011 - This seems to be an issue between the Sharp 832u and my xbox 360. I tried two different xbox 360 and same issue with the 832u Sharp. Tried my xbox with an lg hdmi 720p expanded and didn't notice the issue, same for a Sharp 46" at 1080p hdmi expanded. Hoping Sharp tech support can shed some light.

I noticed crushed blacks when switching between standard and expanded. If I leave it on expanded and then turn off the xbox and then back on my blacks are no longer crushed. There that and see if it helps.
switch42 is offline  
Old 12-30-2011, 08:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeremy Anderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 1,682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by switch42 View Post

I noticed crushed blacks when switching between standard and expanded. If I leave it on expanded and then turn off the xbox and then back on my blacks are no longer crushed. There that and see if it helps.

The problem is that with the previous dashboard, Standard was the correct setting for 16-235 video levels and Expanded was the correct level for 0-255 levels (i.e. RGB FULL RANGE). Intermediate was somewhere in between and didn't really comply to any standard. Now, unless you're using a PC monitor, you're supposed to be calibrating your display to Standard, since broadcast sources are done with 16-235 range in mind. When we calibrate displays, however, we typically calibrate so white doesn't clip until above 235 (all the way up to 255 is advised) because there are some highlights above 235 on Blu-ray discs... but 16 should still be black and nothing below that should be showing.

With the new dashboard, Standard is no longer 16-235... and is actually not even RGB FULL RANGE as you would think if they got it reversed with Expanded. Standard now shows black down to 0... but white no longer clips at all on a calibrated display (even when set for white clipping at the full 255), as if they are randomly reducing white levels. Intermediate and Expanded now completely crush blacks ABOVE 16, so none of the three settings comply with either the LIMITED or FULL RANGE standard.

Worse, the behavior you're seeing where you set your 360 to Expanded and then turn it off and back on... That's because the 360's reference levels are resetting to Standard every time you first power up, even when the setting in the system is at Expanded. Play a video, stop it, restart it and you'll see the 360's video player change BACK to Expanded on the second playback (which is something Microsoft is aware of but has done nothing about thus far). Worse than that, even if your system is set to Standard, you can start a black level test playing, note blacks down to 2 that you shouldn't be seeing, then stop and restart the test... and note that black is now showing somewhere near 6-8 instead. So black levels are not only incorrect, they're changing levels after the first playback.

Bottom line: Video playback is HOSED on the new dashboard. Whether it affects in-game video is difficult to say, because the problem seems to be Microsoft's new video renderer in the dashboard. If the game's video cutscenes use the dashboard-level renderer, then the same bug will rear its ugly head. If they use an external renderer like Bink Video, it's hard to say if there will be any difference. (Unless Bink Video is part of Microsoft's SDK, which I'm not sure of. I'm guessing that the new video rendering on the 360 is a modified version of their Silverlight smooth-streaming video algorithm.)

"Never believe any quote you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Jeremy Anderson is offline  
Old 12-30-2011, 01:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
fahrenheit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

L4D2 is probably a bad choice to use to test. Valve games are the only ones I know of that allow you to change the levels from TV to PC in the options. I don't know how that interacts with the 360's setting. It might be able to override whatever the new dash is screwing up for everything else.

Just my luck. I'll look at a few of my other titles.
fahrenheit is online now  
Old 12-30-2011, 02:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Thebarnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 3,179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Can anyone from Microsoft tell us when they plan to fix this?

Are they even working on it?

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
Thebarnman is offline  
Old 12-30-2011, 11:56 PM
Senior Member
 
henhowc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: 90025
Posts: 312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Well that's annoying. Thanks for the explanation.

If you really wanted to, I think you could download it to a friend's xbox and then transfer it over with a usb stick?
henhowc is offline  
Old 12-31-2011, 12:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
msgohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,856
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I ended up just converting some other test patterns to WMV, and the resolution looked perfect to me with the old dashboard. After updating I was able to confirm both the downscaling issue and the screwed black levels...

Guess I picked a bad time to buy into this platform, as a videophile.

I contacted Ars Technica earlier today with my screenshots and whatnot but haven't received a response. Think there's any point in trying to get Engadget or some other site's interest, or are they usually on vacation at this time?
msgohan is offline  
Old 12-31-2011, 05:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
LexInVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 46
I hope they fix this soon. One of the main reasons I bought a 360 was Winter gaming and being that we are now in Winter, it's really something I'm looking forward to since I don't have my gaming PC running at this time and I have bought a few new 360 titles including Halo Anniversary.
LexInVA is offline  
Old 01-01-2012, 04:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
fahrenheit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Bottom line: Video playback is HOSED on the new dashboard. Whether it affects in-game video is difficult to say, because the problem seems to be Microsoft's new video renderer in the dashboard. If the game's video cutscenes use the dashboard-level renderer, then the same bug will rear its ugly head. If they use an external renderer like Bink Video, it's hard to say if there will be any difference. (Unless Bink Video is part of Microsoft's SDK, which I'm not sure of. I'm guessing that the new video rendering on the 360 is a modified version of their Silverlight smooth-streaming video algorithm.)

I can't find any examples of in-game FMV on retail discs being affected.
The difference with dashboard video playback is very easy to see on a calibrated display but its just not there in the games I've tried.
Haven't tested any XBLA titles but I'll assume they behave much like retail disc titles.
fahrenheit is online now  
Old 01-01-2012, 08:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeremy Anderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 1,682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

I can't find any examples of in-game FMV on retail discs being affected.
The difference with dashboard video playback is very easy to see on a calibrated display but its just not there in the games I've tried.
Haven't tested any XBLA titles but I'll assume they behave much like retail disc titles.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's just the new renderer they're using, which means games won't be affected. Let's just hope that this renderer doesn't get used by any of the game companies. I'm still hoping for a fix, but I'm not holding my breath. Microsoft seems more concerned with pushing these stupid video apps out, despite them all being fundamentally broken.

"Never believe any quote you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Jeremy Anderson is offline  
Old 01-02-2012, 01:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
msgohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,856
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Zune Marketplace videos appear to be full res despite the downscaling of user files. The poster image and text at the end of the Fast Five 10-Minute Preview look tack-sharp.
msgohan is offline  
Old 01-03-2012, 04:21 PM
Senior Member
 
henhowc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: 90025
Posts: 312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post


I contacted Ars Technica earlier today with my screenshots and whatnot but haven't received a response. Think there's any point in trying to get Engadget or some other site's interest, or are they usually on vacation at this time?

I dunno...considering no one really picked up the story even after Eurogamer/DF verified the black level issue, I don't know how likely any other sites are going to run something like this. Kotaku ran a story but they didn't even bother to verify the claims themselves. As "geeky" as most gamers claim to be, most seem completely oblivious and consider this to be a non-issue that can be "fixed" by adjusting your brightness levels.
henhowc is offline  
Old 01-03-2012, 06:40 PM
Senior Member
 
henhowc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: 90025
Posts: 312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 20
So I guess the beta is officially over. Still no word...
henhowc is offline  
Old 01-03-2012, 09:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mboojigga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Little Rock AFB, Arkansas
Posts: 8,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 464
Quote:
Originally Posted by henhowc View Post

So I guess the beta is officially over. Still no word...

No the beta is still ongoing

The 5.0 is here
mboojigga is offline  
Old 01-03-2012, 11:42 PM
Senior Member
 
henhowc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: 90025
Posts: 312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

No the beta is still ongoing

Beta website states otherwise. I guess no one ever bothers to read their bulletins. LOL

Important Close Out Information for EVERYONE:
  1. Effective 1/3/2012 -- your Xbox console is no longer registered in the Xbox LIVE Update program and you will notice that the "Pre-Release" Hub is no longer present on your dashboard.
  2. All support inquiries can be submitted to 1-800-4-MY-XBOX or via www.xbox.com -- through standard regional support channels.
  3. Your access to the Connect Portal and Xbox.com Private Forums will end within the next week as we completely close out the program.
henhowc is offline  
Old 01-04-2012, 10:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeremy Anderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 1,682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Connect site for bug reports is gone now, along with all evidence of Microsoft ignoring/deleting the many bug reports we made on this debacle. Private forums for the preview program will be gone soon, but fortunately there is still a thread in the public Xbox.com forums with the same information.

We're no longer under Microsoft's NDA now, so I feel safe in telling you that Digital Foundry is investigating the reference level problems and downscaling of video on the new dashboard for a more thorough follow-up article, hopefully to be released this weekend. I'm hoping that this will get re-posted by the gaming news sites as well, because the more attention, the better.

"Never believe any quote you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Jeremy Anderson is offline  
Old 01-04-2012, 11:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mboojigga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Little Rock AFB, Arkansas
Posts: 8,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 464
Quote:
Originally Posted by henhowc View Post


Beta website states otherwise. I guess no one ever bothers to read their bulletins. LOL

Important Close Out Information for EVERYONE:

[*]Effective 1/3/2012 -- your Xbox console is no longer registered in the Xbox LIVE Update program and you will notice that the "Pre-Release" Hub is no longer present on your dashboard.[*] All support inquiries can be submitted to 1-800-4-MY-XBOX or via www.xbox.com -- through standard regional support channels.[*] Your access to the Connect Portal and Xbox.com Private Forums will end within the next week as we completely close out the program.

Well at the time when I responded my dashboard was still in beta lol.

The 5.0 is here
mboojigga is offline  
Old 01-04-2012, 08:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Thebarnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 3,179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

We're no longer under Microsoft's NDA now, so I feel safe in telling you that Digital Foundry is investigating the reference level problems and downscaling of video on the new dashboard for a more thorough follow-up article, hopefully to be released this weekend. I'm hoping that this will get re-posted by the gaming news sites as well, because the more attention, the better.

This is GREAT news. Thank you for the update!!!

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
Thebarnman is offline  
Old 01-07-2012, 04:07 AM
Senior Member
 
henhowc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: 90025
Posts: 312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 20
The article is up:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...h-the-360-dash

Quote:


So, what's going on? The obvious conclusion is that the SDK Microsoft is believed to have supplied to third-party video partners is limited to 720p only, leaving Microsoft's host service with a clear quality advantage. The message we draw from this is that the platform holder wants to expand the take-up of the Xbox 360 as a media-streaming device, but very much on its own terms with its own content getting the best quality, and the user's "homebrew" media not being given much importance at all.

Incorrect video levels are obviously a bug, but blatantly downgrading resolution looks very much like part of a strategy. As it is, the new dashboard's preview programme ensured that the issues were brought to Microsoft's attention. Now we wait to see whether anything will actually be fixed.

henhowc is offline  
 

Tags
Xbox 360 250gb Console With Kinect
Gear in this thread - 250gb by PriceGrabber.com
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off