The Official Xbox 360 Dashboard/Update Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 962 Old 01-07-2012, 03:54 AM
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You beat me to it, henhowc. Heh...

Leadbetter's a good guy. Totally listened to everything I said and found ways to test it. Glad it's out there... though I doubt Microsoft will respond at all. I forwarded the article on to Kotaku, Joystiq, etc. to see if it will get some attention.

(And yeah, I made sure he mentioned AVSForum, 'cause where do you think I've picked up on most of this stuff for years now?)

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post #632 of 962 Old 01-07-2012, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

The problem is that with the previous dashboard, Standard was the correct setting for 16-235 video levels and Expanded was the correct level for 0-255 levels (i.e. RGB FULL RANGE). Intermediate was somewhere in between and didn't really comply to any standard. Now, unless you're using a PC monitor, you're supposed to be calibrating your display to Standard, since broadcast sources are done with 16-235 range in mind. When we calibrate displays, however, we typically calibrate so white doesn't clip until above 235 (all the way up to 255 is advised) because there are some highlights above 235 on Blu-ray discs... but 16 should still be black and nothing below that should be showing.

With the new dashboard, Standard is no longer 16-235... and is actually not even RGB FULL RANGE as you would think if they got it reversed with Expanded. Standard now shows black down to 0... but white no longer clips at all on a calibrated display (even when set for white clipping at the full 255), as if they are randomly reducing white levels. Intermediate and Expanded now completely crush blacks ABOVE 16, so none of the three settings comply with either the LIMITED or FULL RANGE standard.

Worse, the behavior you're seeing where you set your 360 to Expanded and then turn it off and back on... That's because the 360's reference levels are resetting to Standard every time you first power up, even when the setting in the system is at Expanded. Play a video, stop it, restart it and you'll see the 360's video player change BACK to Expanded on the second playback (which is something Microsoft is aware of but has done nothing about thus far). Worse than that, even if your system is set to Standard, you can start a black level test playing, note blacks down to 2 that you shouldn't be seeing, then stop and restart the test... and note that black is now showing somewhere near 6-8 instead. So black levels are not only incorrect, they're changing levels after the first playback.

Bottom line: Video playback is HOSED on the new dashboard. Whether it affects in-game video is difficult to say, because the problem seems to be Microsoft's new video renderer in the dashboard. If the game's video cutscenes use the dashboard-level renderer, then the same bug will rear its ugly head. If they use an external renderer like Bink Video, it's hard to say if there will be any difference. (Unless Bink Video is part of Microsoft's SDK, which I'm not sure of. I'm guessing that the new video rendering on the 360 is a modified version of their Silverlight smooth-streaming video algorithm.)

Jeremy, thanks for this post. I'm glad someone else has a handle on this & I'm not the only one pulling my hair out.
I have a PS3 for Bluray & the XBOX360 for Games, Netflix, & MediaCenter. I have an LED TV capable of supporting RGB Full or even YCbCr at 0-255.

No matter which way I go (RGB 0-255 or YCbCr 0-255), I can't seem to get things set to a working consistent state on the XBOX.

As you've said, no matter what I set the TV & XBOX to, it appears the XBOX will automatically reset/switch itself when I go from Games, to Netflix, to MediaCenter & back again.

Best I seem to figure is if I pin the settings to BT709 & Standard on the XBOX (YCbCr / 16-235), and calibrate my tv to that-- after I play a Game, I have to open a video playback via the Videos Library, BEFORE I open MediaCenter, or MediaCenter will open at 0-255, resulting in washed out display.

Very frustrating.

Any word on this getting fixed?

(PS-- HighSpeed HDMI Connections everywhere & the Samsung D8000 LED TV)
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post #633 of 962 Old 01-07-2012, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osburnfamily View Post

J

Any word on this getting fixed?

Nope. It usually takes Bad PR for stuff to get fast tracked/fixed and hopefully we are on track for that happening.

Thanks to Jeremy for getting all the technical details down with Digital Foundry so that they could test exactly what needed to be tested.
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post #634 of 962 Old 01-07-2012, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henhowc View Post

Nope. It usually takes Bad PR for stuff to get fast tracked/fixed and hopefully we are on track for that happening.

Thanks to Jeremy for getting all the technical details down with Digital Foundry so that they could test exactly what needed to be tested.

Oh, he didn't need my help. They know what they're doing over there. I just pointed him toward the AVS709 patterns and explained the issues that we were seeing, and after a little back-and-forth, he ran with it. Damn good job.

Actually, msgohan did a great job of showing the reference level and resolution problems in another thread here. Click here to check that out.

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post #635 of 962 Old 01-07-2012, 08:39 AM
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More Digital Foundary info. on the Video Player problems.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...h-the-360-dash
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post #636 of 962 Old 01-07-2012, 11:46 AM
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you guys are having competing threads. pick one to use. there's too much redundancy. it's almost a word-for-word situation now.
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post #637 of 962 Old 01-07-2012, 01:21 PM
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Damn nice article! This is the first one to truly point out and SHOW the issue with the black level problem.

That, along with the resolution and color issues.

I now hope more will pick up on the story. More media coverage on this should push Microsoft to get these issues fixed and have a update for all of us in a timely matter.

Thank you everyone for your hard work in getting this information to the right people.

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post #638 of 962 Old 01-07-2012, 02:27 PM
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Excellent stuff. I was kinda hoping he would show whether or not in-game FMVs are affected, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by osburnfamily View Post

No matter which way I go (RGB 0-255 or YCbCr 0-255), I can't seem to get things set to a working consistent state on the XBOX.

As you've said, no matter what I set the TV & XBOX to, it appears the XBOX will automatically reset/switch itself when I go from Games, to Netflix, to MediaCenter & back again.

Best I seem to figure is if I pin the settings to BT709 & Standard on the XBOX (YCbCr / 16-235), and calibrate my tv to that-- after I play a Game, I have to open a video playback via the Videos Library, BEFORE I open MediaCenter, or MediaCenter will open at 0-255, resulting in washed out display.

The YCbCr output should always be 16-235 max, as the Reference Levels option only ever affected RGB (at least from what I've read).



Washed out videos are compressed within that range.
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post #639 of 962 Old 01-08-2012, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Excellent stuff. I was kinda hoping he would show whether or not in-game FMVs are affected, though.



The YCbCr output should always be 16-235 max, as the Reference Levels option only ever affected RGB (at least from what I've read).



Washed out videos are compressed within that range.

Can anyone confirm this? I'm sure that may be what it's supposed to be; however, that's not my experience.

I figured if I set the XBOX to YCbCr709 @ Standard then no-matter what I did (switch from a game to MediaCenter to Netflix & back to MediaCenter), it should hold 16-235. But it still seems to jump to 0-255. Yet, the TV doesn't say it's in RGB mode. (Screen gets really grey instead of black) I'll see if I can post pics later today.
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post #640 of 962 Old 01-08-2012, 11:59 AM
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I have a feeling this is just going to go under the radar again due to CES news coverage.

Found this reply amusing.

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post #641 of 962 Old 01-08-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osburnfamily View Post

I figured if I set the XBOX to YCbCr709 @ Standard then no-matter what I did (switch from a game to MediaCenter to Netflix & back to MediaCenter), it should hold 16-235. But it still seems to jump to 0-255. Yet, the TV doesn't say it's in RGB mode. (Screen gets really grey instead of black) I'll see if I can post pics later today.


If YCbCr709 behaved as you expected, then we'd all be able to use it as a workaround until MS pulls their finger out, but we can't.
Video is borked. It does not matter what you choose for colour space or reference levels. Borked is borked.
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post #642 of 962 Old 01-08-2012, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osburnfamily View Post

I figured if I set the XBOX to YCbCr709 @ Standard then no-matter what I did (switch from a game to MediaCenter to Netflix & back to MediaCenter), it should hold 16-235. But it still seems to jump to 0-255. Yet, the TV doesn't say it's in RGB mode. (Screen gets really grey instead of black) I'll see if I can post pics later today.

I only think you're ascribing the wrong cause. If 16 is black then 0-255 would look crushed and bloomed, wouldn't it? To appear grey within 16-235, you need values above 16 rather than below.

Like my USB playback:


White is actually more affected here; black is +3 but white is -18.
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post #643 of 962 Old 01-08-2012, 02:22 PM
 
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After a month back and forth with @xboxsupport, they finally acknowledged the problem for the first time to me today.
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post #644 of 962 Old 01-09-2012, 12:33 PM
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Okay-- so call it what you want-- washing out crushing, etc.. Here's what I'm seeing.

I have the xbox connected to a new Samsung LED D8000 TV using High-Speed HDMI Cables. Set to Movie mode with all the dynamic contrast & dark tones disabled. The XBOX is set to HDMI Color Space of YCbCr709 & Reference Levels set to Standard... Although, If I set to RGB and put the TV on HDMI Black Level = Normal & re-calibrate, I get the same results.


All playback examples are done using the AVS Calibration Basic Settings MP4 as shared to the Xbox via Windows Media Player Sharing and played through the XBOX Video Player. (Same results when played through Windows Media Center Extender as well)

So, the below pictures happen regardless of if I force YCbCr or RGB at the HDMI ColorSpace Settings.

The first pic is of a clean XBOX Boot, then launching the video:


The second pic is after that, I launched Gears of War 3 game (the same could be show when launching HuluPlus or NetFlix as well), exited the game, then went directly back to the Video Player and launched the video again.


The last pic is what I see immediately after I close the video player playback, and re-open it.


PS - This was the only way I could get you what I was seeing. Sorry it isn't as fancy as the way others are doing it.
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post #645 of 962 Old 01-09-2012, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

After a month back and forth with @xboxsupport, they finally acknowledged the problem for the first time to me today.

Excellent!

Did they say anything more?

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post #646 of 962 Old 01-09-2012, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

Excellent!

Did they say anything more?

I doubt that the first official acknowledgement of the issue would come from 1st tier Xbox Support. I saw the tweet to DarkLordJames on their feed. All they did was acknowledge that they knew about the Eurogamer article. They didn't really acknowledge that a problem exists.
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post #647 of 962 Old 01-13-2012, 06:15 PM
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I thought I'd wait a while before posting my impressions of the Dashboard update until I had gotten used to it. So after having had it for awhile, all I can say is that I REALLY don't like it. Especially what they did to Netflix. It used to have a simple and elegant interface, but now it's an overcrowded, unintuitive mess. It's so bad now I've taken to using my blu ray player for NF now, and while it's a bit clunky, it's still easier and less obnoxious than the XB's app. Ugh. What a step backward in the functionality department.

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post #648 of 962 Old 01-15-2012, 03:03 PM
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It's so bad now I've taken to using my blu ray player for NF now, and while it's a bit clunky, it's still easier and less obnoxious than the XB's app.

I agree 100% I've also switched away from the xbox because of this.

I own a couple XBOX 360's for gaming, netflix, hulu+, and mediacenter extender functionality for my CabelCARD TV Tuners. I don't do any online gaming-- just offline console gaming; so, the only reason to have the xbox live family pack was because of Netflix & Hulu+.

After this update, the constant screwing up of video playback between 0-255 & 16-235, along with the TERRIBLE interface of the new Netflix, I have gone to using the Xbox only for the Extender DVR use.

...and since MS is dead-set agains a bluray drive for the xbox, I've kept my PS3 around. So, my PS3 is now becoming my gaming console, bluray, & Netflix. That, with my decision to cancel Hulu+ (they ticked me off when half the shows I want to watch are only avail from a PC!)... No more reason to have XBOX Live Gold.

Thanks Microsoft.
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post #649 of 962 Old 01-15-2012, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ratpacker View Post

I thought I'd wait a while before posting my impressions of the Dashboard update until I had gotten used to it. So after having had it for awhile, all I can say is that I REALLY don't like it. Especially what they did to Netflix. It used to have a simple and elegant interface, but now it's an overcrowded, unintuitive mess. It's so bad now I've taken to using my blu ray player for NF now, and while it's a bit clunky, it's still easier and less obnoxious than the XB's app. Ugh. What a step backward in the functionality department.

Maybe people do more with NF than I do, but it does what I want it to: choose a title from my queue, press play, when finished it is ready to play the next episode...

It remembers where I stop watching things and resumes perfectly. I can also pull up info while viewing.

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post #650 of 962 Old 01-15-2012, 03:46 PM
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Maybe people do more with NF than I do, but it does what I want it to: choose a title from my queue, press play, when finished it is ready to play the next episode...

It remembers where I stop watching things and resumes perfectly. I can also pull up info while viewing.

At first, I thought the new Netflix was ugly. But the advantage of all the titles on the screen at the same time is you're actually exposed to a lot more titles. I actually added some titles to my instant queue because of the new format.

The only thing I really miss about the old Netflix app is the viewing parties. If any Microsoft people are out there, please bring back viewing parties! That's what made the Xbox version special.

The other day, we had a party of 8 and we had to fake the viewing party experience for Tucker & Dale vs Evil. And it was crazy. We had to time it and then say "on 3, hit play. 1, 2, 3..." and then the occasional buffering separated us so that one person could be 2 seconds ahead of another person.
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post #651 of 962 Old 01-15-2012, 08:11 PM
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What I hate about the new NF- a clutered homepage with smaller, harder to see thumbs. The removing of the skip feature. Some of the stuff I liked to watch I had the "chapter skips" down and could get to my favorite parts quickly. Now all we have is a fast forward function thats sketchy at best. And on TV shows, you can't go to the episode list without your previously watched episode starting. I don't know why it bothers me so much, but it just aggravates the hell outta me for some reason. Whoever designed it probably thought it was clever, but in this reporters opinion, its just damn obnoxious. I HATE THE NEW NETFLIX UPDATE. The rest of the dash update doesn't bother me as much, but I still prefer the old one.

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post #652 of 962 Old 01-16-2012, 04:42 AM
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The removing of the skip feature. Some of the stuff I liked to watch I had the "chapter skips" down and could get to my favorite parts quickly. Now all we have is a fast forward function thats sketchy at best.

Use the Kinect scroller bar. just grab it with your hand, pull it to near the exact frame you want and then pull down to start playback. far faster and far more accurate than than skip or scan method.
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post #653 of 962 Old 01-16-2012, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

Use the Kinect scroller bar. just grab it with your hand, pull it to near the exact frame you want and then pull down to start playback. far faster and far more accurate than than skip or scan method.

If I had kinect, I probably would. But since I don't have one or plan or getting one, I'd have been happy if they would've just left the old feature in.

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post #654 of 962 Old 01-19-2012, 11:24 AM
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How do I even pull up game videos I've downloaded? I used to find them under games and scroll down past demo/arcade/indie and there would be a game videos. I don't like to have to fire up zune to watch gaming trailers I've downloaded.

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post #655 of 962 Old 01-19-2012, 11:26 AM
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I looked for it last week, and I believe the only way to look at game video is to pull up Zune.
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post #656 of 962 Old 01-19-2012, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratpacker View Post

What I hate about the new NF- a clutered homepage with smaller, harder to see thumbs. The removing of the skip feature. Some of the stuff I liked to watch I had the "chapter skips" down and could get to my favorite parts quickly. Now all we have is a fast forward function thats sketchy at best. And on TV shows, you can't go to the episode list without your previously watched episode starting. I don't know why it bothers me so much, but it just aggravates the hell outta me for some reason. Whoever designed it probably thought it was clever, but in this reporters opinion, its just damn obnoxious. I HATE THE NEW NETFLIX UPDATE. The rest of the dash update doesn't bother me as much, but I still prefer the old one.

Blame Netflix as they are the ones that designed it. Just like their .com site. Personally I like the new setup. I don't spend time trying to skip to certain parts when. I I stop in the middle of playback and start up another day or in another room I never have an issue where to resume. I have barely need to fast forward or rewind.

The 5.0 is here
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post #657 of 962 Old 01-19-2012, 05:14 PM
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post #658 of 962 Old 01-19-2012, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by henhowc View Post

Quick update From @majornelson Twitter!!!!!

"We're aware of the colorspace issue w/ some Xbox video apps & are working on a fix. No ETA yet but we hope to have an update soon."

Engadget is now reporting on the issue.
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post #659 of 962 Old 01-19-2012, 06:33 PM
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I looked for it last week, and I believe the only way to look at game video is to pull up Zune.

This sucks it takes a long time to load Zune up. I asked Xbox support on twitter and Zune is it.

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post #660 of 962 Old 01-19-2012, 08:13 PM
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Engadget is now reporting on the issue.

Bah...took them long enough. :P
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