Video is messed up on the metro dashboard. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 12-18-2011, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...video-playback


Assumed more people here would have noticed this issue with the new dashboard than most other places (since we by and large have our tv's better calibrated than the average person). This has been in the private beta forums for a few weeks and multiple bug reports have been filed that have all been deleted/ignored. The people in the private forums finally got the eurogamer staff to write an article about it (linked above) but we need to get everybody to start reporting it. I have tipped it to every tech blog I know and asked them to look into the issue themselves. Hopefully if enough do the same they actually will.
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post #2 of 28 Old 12-18-2011, 01:14 PM
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Yup...it was discussed in some of the other threads. DF responded to me a few days ago indicating that they had been working on an article.

Good job guys! Let's all forward this to all the other blogs/news sites now.
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post #3 of 28 Old 12-18-2011, 02:17 PM
 
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Yes. Now Twitter @xboxsupport and @majornelson with a link to this article and ask them to forward it to the dashboard dev team.
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post #4 of 28 Old 12-18-2011, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Yes. Now Twitter @xboxsupport and @majornelson with a link to this article and ask them to forward it to the dashboard dev team.

I'm sure they will start hearing about it now that the word is starting to get out.

http://kotaku.com/5869165/video-play...shboard-report
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post #5 of 28 Old 12-18-2011, 06:48 PM
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Huh. Didn't really notice a video quality drop, but I'm still using component cables to my 2001 tube HDTV. Or my eyes are getting old.

Only complaint I have is that Quickplay needs pin/unpin options so that the Video Player can be added. No matter how many times I use it, it's not there, meanwhile ALL the other video apps are, no matter how little I want them...

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post #6 of 28 Old 12-19-2011, 05:22 AM
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Good thing I haven't updated to this Metro stuff yet. I'd better keep my 360 disconnected for the time being.
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post #7 of 28 Old 12-19-2011, 07:51 AM
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Not sure why Microsoft wouldn't themselves be giving this top priority and paying careful attention to any and all reports in the beta forums. Does Microsoft think that end users are purposely being difficult or otherwise blowing this out of proportion? Or do they think that users are just mistaken?

When you have a device whose sole purpose is to display high definition games and video content, and it suddenly develops a problem in terms of the correctness of its output, this should be #1 on the "must fix immediately" list, way above "Bringing iHeartRadio to the masses", for example.
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post #8 of 28 Old 12-19-2011, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagouar View Post

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...video-playback


Assumed more people here would have noticed this issue with the new dashboard than most other places (since we by and large have our tv's better calibrated than the average person). This has been in the private beta forums for a few weeks and multiple bug reports have been filed that have all been deleted/ignored. The people in the private forums finally got the eurogamer staff to write an article about it (linked above) but we need to get everybody to start reporting it. I have tipped it to every tech blog I know and asked them to look into the issue themselves. Hopefully if enough do the same they actually will.



Yes, it's pretty messed up. Because of the issue, Video has lower contrast, lack of real black, look less sharp (this is due to lower contrast) and color saturation is gone.

From what I've read, it even effects in game videos.

As it stands right now, video looks pretty crappy with the Xbox 360.

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #9 of 28 Old 12-19-2011, 01:34 PM
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There is a work around...

If you are watching vidoes, you can set HDMI color space to "RGB" and Reference Levels to "Expanded". That will fix the black levels.

But you have to revert your changes when you play games. Not a great solution, but a solution...
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post #10 of 28 Old 12-20-2011, 05:50 AM
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Further, it sounds like this impacts component video as well, which is really baffling. When outputting high definition component, there's no "wide or normal color range", there's no question of which color space to use, etc. etc., it's literally defined by the standard ITU-R BT.709. Hence, if you [Microsoft] break this, you're simply non-standard compliant, there's no gray area of, "Maybe the display was expecting one thing while the device was putting out another" as there can be with arbitrary RGB.
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post #11 of 28 Old 12-20-2011, 05:58 AM
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I use the VGA cables on one of my xbox's and it affects that as well...
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post #12 of 28 Old 12-21-2011, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy View Post

There is a work around...

If you are watching vidoes, you can set HDMI color space to "RGB" and Reference Levels to "Expanded". That will fix the black levels.

But you have to revert your changes when you play games. Not a great solution, but a solution...

Actually, that still doesn't fix the black levels for video. Using Extended reference level now clips black WAY above the standard of 16, regardless of what you set Color Space to. It certainly looks better than Standard or Intermediate, but it's crushing blacks so badly that if you play the AVS 709 black level test, NONE of the bars will show up on a calibrated display when everything above 16 should be flashing.

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post #13 of 28 Old 12-22-2011, 04:18 PM
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I hate to say this. But MS just may be blowing it on the XBox 360 updates. As I commented on another thread, each change has made their online experience worse IMO. The dashboard is now just stuffed with "Bloatware", ads and apps I have zero interest in. It is becoming ever more difficult and complicated to navigate. And now they seem to be willfully compromising image quality, just to stuff more commercial stuff into the console. They turned the XBox Live Forum into a ghost town with their last update by completely ruining it. And then lying to users about "Fixing the problems". I no longer post any comments to it. It is just too tedious and wasteful now. These constant updates have questionable value to most users and are actually becoming disturbing. MS ask for feedback and then ignore input...like in this case. I will not be an early adopter of their next console. Because IMO they are getting way over extended on the multimedia side. Often with a hit to quality Assurance and control! I will monitor it for awhile to see if it is any better before just jumping on the NextBox bandwagon on day 1..
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post #14 of 28 Old 12-22-2011, 07:43 PM
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Microsoft is a OS company yet they suck so badly on the xbox dashboard. Why do they keep on changing functions that millions of people are used to? You gotta give credit to sony and their XMB, its simple, intuitive and functional. Makes the xbox dashboard look like a mess.
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post #15 of 28 Old 12-22-2011, 10:52 PM
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I personally like the new dashboard. If they would fix the black level problem I'd be more thasn happy.
Oh and if Netflix and Vudu were allowed to do 1080P it would be nice too.
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post #16 of 28 Old 12-23-2011, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by betterdan View Post

I personally like the new dashboard. If they would fix the black level problem I'd be more thasn happy.
Oh and if Netflix and Vudu were allowed to do 1080P it would be nice too.

don't feed the trolls named goatse, bassmonkee, and tgable. they're the resident sony trolls of avs.
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post #17 of 28 Old 12-23-2011, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

don't feed the trolls named goatse, bassmonkee, and tgable. their the resident sony trolls of avs.

really a troll? Yeh, thats why I'm on my 3rd xbox. 2 red ringed.

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post #18 of 28 Old 12-23-2011, 05:38 AM
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xbox #2 that broke



xbox #1 that broke



Yeh sony fanboys really like to keep giving microsoft money huh? or maybe microsoft fanboys can't handle to criticism.
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post #19 of 28 Old 12-24-2011, 10:15 AM
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that proves nothing lol... i own a blu ray pla....er I mean PS3 and I'm a huge xbox boy. I Honestly cant stand the PS3 and its LAME and BORING XMB, Its Controller and of course PSN Blows

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post #20 of 28 Old 12-25-2011, 06:13 AM
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He bought a broken xbox from ebay for that pic....lol
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post #21 of 28 Old 12-26-2011, 12:23 PM
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fanboyism is so damn stupid. I have no alliance to a company i give my money to. Xbox dashbroad is unnecessarily complicated not user friendly. Anyone can jump in to the sony xmb is is intuitive. Doesn't help that microsoft constnatly changes the dashboard to something that looks completely new.
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post #22 of 28 Old 12-26-2011, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

fanboyism is so damn stupid. I have no alliance to a company i give my money to. Xbox dashbroad is unnecessarily complicated not user friendly. Anyone can jump in to the sony xmb is is intuitive. Doesn't help that microsoft constnatly changes the dashboard to something that looks completely new.

Whoa whoa now. Let's not get crazy. xmb is far from an "anyone can jump in to intuitive" interface. As it stands now I would agree that it's simpler than what the 360 is doing. I too am not caring for the update that much.

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post #23 of 28 Old 01-03-2012, 10:31 PM
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Shall we steer this back on-topic?

Over the past few days I've contacted four different tech sites/blogs with this information and haven't received any response, not even a form letter. I won't be doing that again.

I wrote out an explanation when I sent this stuff in but a lot of the points have already been made in this thread so I won't repeat them.

Camcorder video, HDMI screenshots demonstrating downscaling



With the previous dashboard, the 1080i output used a slight vertical filter (presumably to reduce interline twitter on true interlaced displays), but the 1080p output seemed to reproduce this test pattern with full detail. Now it's scaled to some intermediate resolution.

Zune Marketplace videos still appear to show 1080p detail levels, and since the other apps are limited to 720p anyway that means this particular issue only affects our own video files.

If you want to check the YouTube vids you'll probably have to switch the quality level to 1080p and go full-screen in order to see what the hell I'm attempting to demonstrate. As always I apologize for my poor photography skills. I would have used manual focus but I was holding both the controller and camera myself. The original 60 fps camcorder files can be downloaded from Megaupload and may be a little less nausea-inducing.



720p test pattern

Full resolution intact, presentation improved in the sense that a black border is no longer added, but levels are wrong.



The images below have a histogram included on the right side. All of the screenshots have been expanded from 16-235 to 0-255 to appear correctly on a PC monitor set up for full range. This should be equivalent to what you would see by setting up your TV to accepted limited range on all examples, except that BTB and WTW are clipped by necessity.

In any event, the histograms show what the levels look like before being expanded.

CG rendering that demonstrates levels - NXE



CG rendering that demonstrates levels - Metro



A good comparison you can make on your own TV is to go into the Zune Marketplace and load up a Preview that uses player-generated letterboxing/pillarboxing. You can tell this is the case when Stretch gets rid of black bars and fills your 16:9 screen; if it doesn't then the black bars are hard-coded. So in other words you're looking for the trailers of new 2.35:1 movies, or older movies where the available trailer is only 4:3 SD. I went with Transformers: Dark of the Moon because I know it has plenty of dark scenes and screens of black with text.

Transformers: Dark of the Moon trailer - Metro



Notice that setting Expanded and running it through a "limited" chain puts the levels where they should be on the Zune video, but then the interface-generated black bars are way out of range (along with the rest of the interface... and games). Meanwhile, setting Expanded on our own CG test clip pushes blacks into BTB. So, the black levels problem isn't even consistent across sources.

Corrections are welcome if I screwed up somewhere.
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post #24 of 28 Old 01-04-2012, 12:01 AM
 
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You know what, msgohan? That's actually pretty good work.
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post #25 of 28 Old 01-04-2012, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice writeup.... is this on a blog or anything anywhere? If so people here could tip all the websites we know to hopefully get them to write about it. Might help if the same "tip" comes from 50 people vs just 1 or 2.
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post #26 of 28 Old 01-04-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

you know what, msgohan? That's actually pretty good work.

+2.
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post #27 of 28 Old 01-07-2012, 04:29 AM
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More info has gone up on Digital Foundry's site.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...h-the-360-dash

"Never believe any quote you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
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post #28 of 28 Old 01-12-2012, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

More info has gone up on Digital Foundry's site.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...h-the-360-dash

Out of curiosity, did Richard ever mention anything about them contacting MS for comment or at least forwarding along the information to any contacts he might have there?
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