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post #181 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord_Zath View Post

I agree with your 2nd paragraph. Gamers aren't the same as readers (usually). We want to know how things ended so we can have closure and move on to the next game. Perhaps you're right - the intentional ambiguity is to keep interest on the game with the plan to sell new content and make $$$.

As long EA/Bioware keeps releasing free DLCs, I don't mind if it will be another year before I can see the extended cut ending. My theory is once the ext cut ending DLC comes out, the rest of the DLCs will not be free anymore. So, keep delaying the ext cut ending DLC so that Bioware has to keep saving their face by giving out more free DLCs.
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post #182 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 12:32 PM
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My respect for them has gone up now that I see how clever some of those hints are (the eyes).

Agreed. They crafted it in there nicely, and they are keeping their mouths shut to see how many people figure it out.

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Even if they intentionally seeded the indoc theory, they're still considered idiots until they validate it, which flies in the face of what they were trying to do. Clearly they misjudged their audience. They could have succeeded magnificently with an unambiguous ending....which is clearly what even the indoc theory people wanted.

I don't agree with you here - as clever and slick as this indoctrination implementation was (>50% still don't believe it, which makes it even more sly), it in and of itself is not an ending, it's just a delay. They created this delay to add to the tension, which I like, considering the ending will be free, but I still want to know how my Shepard's story ends. You can't end the game with Shepard breaking the indoctrination, getting back up, but still not knowing what the crucible will do or how your crew ends up - I still need a little more than that. And I want my ending to be somewhat unique as compared to someone else who killed Wrex, the Geth, or blew up the Collector base etc.
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post #183 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 12:45 PM
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Reply to spyder696969:
Destruction: You destroy the Reapers. Great. If history has shown us anything, it's that when you overthrow one despot, another quickly rises to take its place. Is it the Krogans, who have a bajillion babies in every nook and cranny of the galaxy? Or is it some rogue councilman, George Tiberius Bush XXIII? Maybe it's the Salarians or even those crazy-ass Kardashians. To quote Fallout, "War...war never changes."
- If Krogan has learned anything from being genophase, maybe they can be the frontline defense race to protect other species.
- Or if Krogan wasn't cured from the genophase, they will go into extinction having a small population left after the Reaper war.

Control: Meh. You "control" the Reapers...for now. They or other machines eventually rise up. Skynet goes berzerk. The Reapers come back and whoop the asses of all of Shepards great, great, great, great grandkids. Again, nothing changes.
- Shepard becomes the super god that controls all lifeforms in the galaxy. And lives in the blackhole at the center of the galaxy. Future generation species can try to fly to the center of the galaxy to find the super god. All Shepard can say is "this is heavy" when presented with any problem. William Shatner can be the director again.

Synthesis: Everybody has powers. From The Incredibles, "When everyone is special, no one is." The galaxy experiences a genetic meltdown. I still don't see everyone as "the same," and "diversity being lost" since Krogans are still Krogans, humans still human, etc. Still, if all humans on Earth were to suddenly be blended into the same color of skin, would there be disputes? Is simply being black, white, or purple the sole cause for one to seek out violence? I think not.
- Galactic hybrid X-men. New wars between the galactic species on who's the superior hybrid species.
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post #184 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Agreed. They crafted it in there nicely, and they are keeping their mouths shut to see how many people figure it out.


I don't agree with you here - as clever and slick as this indoctrination implementation was (>50% still don't believe it, which makes it even more sly), it in and of itself is not an ending, it's just a delay. They created this delay to add to the tension, which I like, considering the ending will be free, but I still want to know how my Shepard's story ends. You can't end the game with Shepard breaking the indoctrination, getting back up, but still not knowing what the crucible will do or how your crew ends up - I still need a little more than that. And I want my ending to be somewhat unique as compared to someone else who killed Wrex, the Geth, or blew up the Collector base etc.

If they do go as far as to validate the indoc theory as the "true" ending, I suspect the outrage only increases. Then they've explicitly trolled their audience, if the ending isn't actually the end. Maybe 10% will think its clever, the rest are either baffled or disgusted. God forbid they charge for post-ending DLC.

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post #185 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

If they do go as far as to validate the indoc theory as the "true" ending, I suspect the outrage only increases. Then they've explicitly trolled their audience, if the ending isn't actually the end. Maybe 10% will think its clever, the rest are either baffled or disgusted. God forbid they charge for post-ending DLC.

So far all my friends who've beaten the game that I've talked to would be annoyed if they DON'T go with the indoctrination ending...

Honestly I don't how else the little boy in beginning/dreams/ending could be explained any other way, do you?

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post #186 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 02:03 PM
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So far all my friends who've beaten the game that I've talked to would be annoyed if they DON'T go with the indoctrination ending...

Honestly I don't how else the little boy in beginning/dreams/ending could be explained any other way, do you?

There was a little boy that got killed in the beginning. It haunted Shepard, representing all the people he couldn't save. Reaper god used him as an avatar to represent all of humanity/life he was about to make the final decision for.

Anything else that is supposed proof of indoc theory can be equally explained away if you allow for artistic license.

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post #187 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 02:21 PM
 
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So far all my friends who've beaten the game that I've talked to would be annoyed if they DON'T go with the indoctrination ending...

Honestly I don't how else the little boy in beginning/dreams/ending could be explained any other way, do you?

Easy. Male Shepard is a member of NAMBLA.

Female Shepard? Hmmmm. Couldn't say...my FemShep was far too busy getting it on with hot chicks to be having thoughts about little boys.

Honestly, at this point, I don't even care. The ME journey was a very good one. If BW wants to think they're "clever" by coming up with a paper-thin failed attempt at "trickery" over its fans by ripping off someone else's noble ideas, then I find it sad and pathetic. I actually would have had more repsect for them if they had just come out and said, "Hey, we wanted to end the series this way to make serious DLC cash down the road" or "We were just too damn lazy to create 3 endings based on all your hard work."

If they actually thought they were being sly, they couldn't be more wrong. A true curve ball wouldn't have been so widely accpepted and easy to figure out. If they're going to simply say, "It was all an indocrination dream and we were just messing with you," then they should have also went so far as to show us EVERYONE getting killed, the Reapers harvesting children, and/or some other option that they committed to and portrayed with complete sincerety that would have had people shaking their heads not in disgust, but disbelief.

As it stands, it's a joke, indoctrination or not.
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post #188 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 02:28 PM
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Again, Shepards eyes at the end (as he falls into the beam) show that he/she has blue eyes with two little circles in them. Why did they add that little touch then?
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post #189 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Pluvious View Post

Again, Shepards eyes at the end (as he falls into the beam) show that he/she has blue eyes with two little circles in them. Why did they add that little touch then?

Because in the synthesis and control options, shepard essentially merges with the reapers. Given that indoctrination is basically the reapers taking control and merging with the subject's mind/body...it isn't incongruous at all.

There's a huge amount of confirmation bias going on with indoc theory. Anyone with an inkling of it starts looking for more clues, and start finding what they're looking for.....cause they're looking for it! Some things seem to fit...but its all circumstantial evidence on top of circumstantial evidence.

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post #190 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Because in the synthesis and control options, shepard essentially merges with the reapers. Given that indoctrination is basically the reapers taking control and merging with the subject's mind/body...it isn't incongruous at all.

There's a huge amount of confirmation bias going on with indoc theory. Anyone with an inkling of it starts looking for more clues, and start finding what they're looking for.....cause they're looking for it! Some things seem to fit...but its all circumstantial evidence on top of circumstantial evidence.

You just think that because you have been indoctrinated.


(The idea for the indoctrination theory is growing on me. So they have a DLC that explains the other two are you being indoctrinated like either Saren or TIM....or if your galactic readiness isn't insanely high you wake up to get ground into dust, but if it's just high enough you take out the reapers on the Earth yourself becoming a martyr that inspires the rest of the coalition to keep fighting till every last one of those bastards is dead. That would be satisfying....at least for me it would....Not only that if this turns out to be their plan all along, That's like Andy Kaufman level of genius)

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post #191 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 05:24 PM
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Synthesis: Everybody has powers. From The Incredibles, "When everyone is special, no one is." The galaxy experiences a genetic meltdown. I still don't see everyone as "the same," and "diversity being lost" since Krogans are still Krogans, humans still human, etc. Still, if all humans on Earth were to suddenly be blended into the same color of skin, would there be disputes? Is simply being black, white, or purple the sole cause for one to seek out violence? I think not.- Galactic hybrid X-men. New wars between the galactic species on who's the superior hybrid species.

I just started ME3. And this thread really piqued my interest. I pretty much agree with all you said. But I couldn't help chuckling at the bolded point. I hate to break it to you Vortex3D, but every single human being on Planet Earth is exactly one color. That would be the color BROWN. Humans genetically range from the darkest shade of brown in sub Saharan Africa, India and parts of Asia, to more red hued browns of the America's and Middle East...to multiple shades of Beige Brown in Europe and Northern Asia. But it is all genetically derivative of one single color...Brown. Many Native American and African tribes actually believe pure black and pure white was the color of the spirit world "Gods and Demons". And that is why man can't see them. technically they were correct. The human eye cannot resolve or see pure black or pure white. But can see a lot of the color spectrum in between.

So bottom line is this. Man has bought into a total lie about skin color. We are all the same color (Brown). And we still fight massive wars and discriminate over skin color. So if man can invent a cozy lie about color to fight wars on Earth...the ME ending does not signal a bright short term future in SHepard World.

Can't wait to finish this game though.
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post #192 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 05:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Because in the synthesis and control options, shepard essentially merges with the reapers. Given that indoctrination is basically the reapers taking control and merging with the subject's mind/body...it isn't incongruous at all.

There's a huge amount of confirmation bias going on with indoc theory. Anyone with an inkling of it starts looking for more clues, and start finding what they're looking for.....cause they're looking for it! Some things seem to fit...but its all circumstantial evidence on top of circumstantial evidence.

I think a FAR more likely theory is that BioWare got so damn worried about their precious Co-Op Shooting Gallery that they either ran out of time or got lazy and just pushed 3 of the same endings on us. People are giving them WAY to much credit, imo.

I also think that it's incredibly likely that the DLC will consist of little more than Shepard being knocked out by the Reaper beam just before she enters. She was never, ever, ever indoctrinated, just knocked out and dreaming the last few moments of the game. This makes MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more sense than saying our hero was too weak to resist the siren's song, particularly after all the sacrifices made.

How they choose to "end it" will be interesting. My bet is that they change little, and we get some similarly cheesy options, perhaps just as bad (or worse) as the originals.

Option One will be to somehow destroy the Reapers and have Shep walk off into the sunset in some trite and inane typical Hollywood fashion. Weak sauce, but it would appease the masses, so accustomed to such drivel. Shouts will ring out across the internets about how this is the "best ending."

Option Two may be for Shep to sacrifice herself to save the galaxy. Not certain how it would be achieved, but it's likely, and it's also a much more fitting and compelling end to an otherwise epic trilogy.

Option Three? Or Four? Who knows? Bring back the kid and let Shep push him into the Pit of Despair? Garrus does the moonwalk while Kaiden complains about everything some more? BW tells you that you can only do these options if you play 5,000 hours of the exact same map with the exact same enemies in Bored Horde mode?

Time will tell.
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post #193 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 05:45 PM
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I think a FAR more likely theory is that BioWare got so damn worried about their precious Co-Op Shooting Gallery that they either ran out of time or got lazy and just pushed 3 of the same endings on us. People are giving them WAY to much credit, imo.

I also think that it's incredibly likely that the DLC will consist of little more than Shepard being knocked out by the Reaper beam just before she enters. She was never, ever, ever indoctrinated, just knocked out and dreaming the last few moments of the game. This makes MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more sense than saying our hero was too weak to resist the siren's song, particularly after all the sacrifices made.

How they choose to "end it" will be interesting. My bet is that they change little, and we get some similarly cheesy options, perhaps just as bad (or worse) as the originals.

Option One will be to somehow destroy the Reapers and have Shep walk off into the sunset in some trite and inane typical Hollywood fashion. Weak sauce, but it would appease the masses, so accustomed to such drivel. Shouts will ring out across the internets about how this is the "best ending."

Option Two may be for Shep to sacrifice herself to save the galaxy. Not certain how it would be achieved, but it's likely, and it's also a much more fitting and compelling end to an otherwise epic trilogy.

Option Three? Or Four? Who knows? Bring back the kid and let Shep push him into the Pit of Despair? Garrus does the moonwalk while Kaiden complains about everything some more? BW tells you that you can only do these options if you play 5,000 hours of the exact same map with the exact same enemies in Bored Horde mode?

Time will tell.

They explicitly said they're not changing anything story wise about the ending. Only extending. So doubtful anything will invalidate the various theories. My guess is that they undo most of the cuts they made to the final scenes, meaning a longer sequence with IM, Anderson and star child, with more explanation to leave people less baffled. They'll probably explain the actions of the normandy, hopefully differentiate the three choices a bit, and probably show a little something more of what happens with the crew. They're obviously well aware of the indoctrination theory now, so they'll probably explicitly throw a few nods at it along the way, subtle enough that most people won't notice.

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post #194 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

If they do go as far as to validate the indoc theory as the "true" ending, I suspect the outrage only increases. Then they've explicitly trolled their audience, if the ending isn't actually the end. Maybe 10% will think its clever, the rest are either baffled or disgusted. God forbid they charge for post-ending DLC.

I completely disagree. We are all a part of video game history right now, it's fairly exciting. Perhaps they just needed more time to fully flesh out the ending and still hit the March release date. I think the manner in which they are doing this is awesome - indoctrination is a key part of the story line, and >50% of the fans who think they finished their journey don't even realize they've been indoctrinated. If the true ending was in there off the bat and played out immediately after this indoctrination sequence, without this delay, the indoctrination aspect wouldn't be fully appreciated. When we have people making 20 minute videos carefully dissecting all references to the indoctrination, it really shows the care that got put into building this up. This is good stuff - I don't know how one can love these games and not appreciate what Bioware has potentially just pulled off. If I got the game this fall when all of this was already resolved, it wouldn't be nearly as good.

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There was a little boy that got killed in the beginning. It haunted Shepard, representing all the people he couldn't save. Reaper god used him as an avatar to represent all of humanity/life he was about to make the final decision for.

Anything else that is supposed proof of indoc theory can be equally explained away if you allow for artistic license.

Why didn't anybody else see this boy? Only Shepard saw him.


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So far all my friends who've beaten the game that I've talked to would be annoyed if they DON'T go with the indoctrination ending...

I know, the arguments for not wanting it just don't make sense to me. It's a key part of the games, it's built up all throughout this 3rd game, and the ending literally makes no sense without it.

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(The idea for the indoctrination theory is growing on me. So they have a DLC that explains the other two are you being indoctrinated like either Saren or TIM....or if your galactic readiness isn't insanely high you wake up to get ground into dust, but if it's just high enough you take out the reapers on the Earth yourself becoming a martyr that inspires the rest of the coalition to keep fighting till every last one of those bastards is dead. That would be satisfying....at least for me it would....Not only that if this turns out to be their plan all along, That's like Andy Kaufman level of genius)

It is definitely genius. I still want to see how my Shepard's ending differs.


I don't know how people can think Bioware has gone from crafting such a well imagined galaxy and story to the complete trash at the end without suspecting anything - I have to give them the benefit of the doubt. As far as we know, there may be more to the ending already on the disc and the DLC may just unlock the rest of it. If there is no indoctrination and that really was the ending, then we have to assume the writers were forced to compile something with little to no time to meet a deadline, but I don't think that would happen with a story-rich blockbuster like this. They would have - at the very least - built the indoctrination and delay in to give themselves more time to deliver a better ending. That's the only logical conclusion. Bioware is going to have more games in the future, they couldn't be so foolish to piss off their customer base that easily. They wouldn't have specifically talked about multiple endings that weren't cookie cutter weeks before the release only to fool people. That's business suicide. These guys are at least a little smarter than that.
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post #195 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 07:07 PM
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The problem with the "they ran out of time" theory is that they originally had much longer end sequences already finished, that they then cut down.

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As far as we know, there may be more to the ending already on the disc and the DLC may just unlock the rest of it.

If that's the case, then this sets an incredibly disconcerting precedent. So, the future of gaming is that I buy a disc and, although it physically contains the entire game, I'm really only getting half of it? If I want an ending, then I have to pay? Sorry, if this is BW's plan, then it's not genius, it's a money-grab. Sure, DLC is always going to be and has always been there, but in the past we've always been given "complete" games in and of themselves, while DLC simply gave us "more" of the experience. Those like my wife (who is a complete gamer and carries a 40K gamerscore, yet has no interest in Live) are getting the shaft. That's not genius, it's complete and utter bulls#!t.
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post #197 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by spyder696969 View Post

If that's the case, then this sets an incredibly disconcerting precedent. So, the future of gaming is that I buy a disc and, although it physically contains the entire game, I'm really only getting half of it? If I want an ending, then I have to pay? Sorry, if this is BW's plan, then it's not genius, it's a money-grab. Sure, DLC is always going to be and has always been there, but in the past we've always been given "complete" games in and of themselves, while DLC simply gave us "more" of the experience. Those like my wife (who is a complete gamer and carries a 40K gamerscore, yet has no interest in Live) are getting the shaft. That's not genius, it's complete and utter bulls#!t.

Agreed.

It takes an incredible amount of rationalization to see them holding back the "true ending" as any sort of good thing.

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Agreed.

It takes an incredible amount of rationalization to see them holding back the "true ending" as any sort of good thing.

Not to mention that it's estimated that 40% of all Xbox consoles aren't on Live.

Is it really "genius" to screw over nearly half your fanbase?
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post #199 of 400 Old 04-10-2012, 10:38 PM
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News flash - the DLC is free.
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post #200 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 12:18 AM
 
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News flash - the DLC is free.

News flash - 40% of Xbox users and ME fans won't get it, free or not.
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post #201 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 04:40 AM
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News flash - the DLC is free.

And free only because of a bitter, hateful reaction to the ending. But this is all part of their genius right?

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post #202 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 08:11 AM
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This. I simply adored the R2 co-op and how it forced you to play as a team. This is the closest thing I've found to a replacement.

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post #203 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by spyder696969 View Post

News flash - 40% of Xbox users and ME fans won't get it, free or not.

Please that 40% are indoctrinated shlubs who think that the synthesis ending was perfectly great. They aren't missing out on anything. And I have talked to quite a few ME fans who think exactly that, the endings are fine and are blissfully unaware of the brewing controversy.

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post #204 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 09:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by spinoza_43221 View Post

Please that 40% are indoctrinated shlubs who think that the synthesis ending was perfectly great. They aren't missing out on anything. And I have talked to quite a few ME fans who think exactly that, the endings are fine and are blissfully unaware of the brewing controversy.

Who's indoctrinated again?

Who is it that's been brainwashed? Who is it that is soooooooooo eager to defend and form a union with their BioWare "genius" masters (Synthesis) while others are storming the gates (Destroy) or are forcing a better end for the galaxy (Control)?

I certainly hope that you're writing parody, because your "arguments" are hilarious!
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post #205 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

...every single human being on Planet Earth is exactly one color. That would be the color BROWN. Humans genetically range from the darkest shade of brown in sub Saharan Africa, India and parts of Asia, to more red hued browns of the America's and Middle East...to multiple shades of Beige Brown in Europe and Northern Asia. But it is all genetically derivative of one single color...Brown. Many Native American and African tribes actually believe pure black and pure white was the color of the spirit world "Gods and Demons". And that is why man can't see them. technically they were correct. The human eye cannot resolve or see pure black or pure white. But can see a lot of the color spectrum in between.

So bottom line is this. Man has bought into a total lie about skin color. We are all the same color (Brown). And we still fight massive wars and discriminate over skin color. So if man can invent a cozy lie about color to fight wars on Earth...the ME ending does not signal a bright short term future in SHepard World.
...

For human beliefs and earth god, yes, I heard of that. What about other species from other star systems. Assari which has mostly blue skin and some greenish skin? Would the same issue apply, Assari and other species eyes can't see the wider spectrum between purple and green? And all Assari really have one skin color?
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post #206 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 10:07 AM
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Can one of the anti-indoctrination theory people offer an explanation about Shepard waking up in the rubble at the end of the game? How is that artistic license again?
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post #207 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 10:15 AM
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Has anyone consider reasons why Earth and human species became the prime target for Reapers to attack? As the series showed, while human species are the youngest to join the Galactic alliance of different species, human also showed ie. Shepard can became a strong leadership to unite every species and Cerberus, ie. Illusive Man can be the darkest of what human species can do to every species in a very short time. If given another chance, Illusive Man could gain control over the Reapers. To the Reapers, they cannot ignore this possibility and this does make human species the most dangerous species to be wiped out.

I think this theory fits better with current ending. Earth and Sol system are screwed no matter what Shepard (indoctrinated or not) chooses. All other species still have enough of their populations in their home planet while Earth and sol system cannot sustain every species that are stuck there. Reapers still won because the most dangerous species will be wiped out in time because of Shepard's leadership to unite the alliance species.
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post #208 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by spinoza_43221 View Post

You just think that because you have been indoctrinated.

lmao

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post #209 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kev0ut View Post

Can one of the anti-indoctrination theory people offer an explanation about Shepard waking up in the rubble at the end of the game? How is that artistic license again?

Shepard survived the attack, and woke up in rubble. Anything beyond that mere fact is speculation. Speculation which can support a thousand different theories.

If you want to bring physics or any sort of realism argument into it about how Shepard couldn't have possibly survived, you'll first have to deal with all the other fantasy elements like biotics, FTL travel, element zero and the mass effect, godlike AI, ghost child, etc

How did he survive? Magic.

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post #210 of 400 Old 04-11-2012, 10:31 AM
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Also, let's try and find an explanation why harbingers beam didn't just liquidate Shepard...cause it effortlessly destroys buildings and all that.

Then let's try and explain how only the destroy option is available when galactic readiness is too low. The same destroy option which is supposedly Shepard breaking the indoc. So essentially, not preparing for the war guarantees Shepard resists? Isn't that kinda backwards? How do you explain that?

Also, why don't the reapers kill Shepard while he's under their control? Better yet, make him shoot himself?

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