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post #241 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 01:37 PM
 
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Whether or not the so-called "Indoctrination Theory" plays out to be true or not is completely irrelevant. The only thing it allows for is for one to possibly say, "Look! Look at me! Look how smart I am! I figured it out all by myself...along with millions of others. Dammit! Look at me!" when it's all said and done. Sad.

Fact is, BW and/or EA screwed over their customers royally either with their laziness and/or with their failed attempt at being "sly." 40% of users without Live won't ever get the "real" ending, while out of the remaining 60%, another 50% or more (like myself) have since sold the game and/or moved on to bigger and better things. So, if BW thinks that it's "genius" to practice (or cave into) this business model, wherein a mere < 30% of their fans actually "buy" their belated DLC trash, then more power to them. BW, enjoy your "intoctrination" into the world of your EA overlords.

New games have replaced your half-assed one. Interest withers. Life goes on.
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post #242 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 01:38 PM
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I think the reason people are really latching onto indoctrination theory is because it allows them to write off anything they found confusing or unsatisfying. It dissolves the dissonance of the ending not making sense by removing the requirement that it needs to make sense at all.

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post #243 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by The Sapient View Post

Sure, but I'm addressing the idea that good writing of an indoctrination story would include fooling the player up to and past the end of the game. When you accept the premise that at some point the plot that the player sees is a hallucination happening inside the mind of a fictional character, all evidence has to be dismissed.

You can't point to events earlier in the story as evidence when the game is believed to invent story and present it to the player as fact (within in the game universe). The gasp can't be seen as a breaking of indoctrination when the entire story can just be the Reapers presenting Shepard with one fictional victory after another.

A well written indoctrination story needs rules, communicated to the player, that allow the player to understand which events are true and which are false (again, within the game universe). I'm not saying that the writers did or did not intend the ending to include Shepard being indoctrinated. I'm saying that if they did, their writing was as terrible as if they did not.

For example, there is no context for the player to know that destruction of the Reapers is the path to mental freedom. The player is just given three ill-defined choices, each a victory over the Reapers that comes with a cost. Good writing writing does not make a player choose randomly, and then measure that choice against an arbitrary Effective Military Strength value to determine the outcome.

But you're thinking of indoctrination based on the rules of how the mind works. Indoctrination breaks the mind, therefore rewriting those rules. So far, the only rule we really know about indoctrination is the more control exerted, the less capable someone is. Therefore, for Shepard to be as capable as he is in 1, 2, and 3, control has to be as fractional as possible. Who's to say that there aren't other rules to indoctrination that the audience has never encountered?

Ever seen the movie Lucky Number Slevin? A great example of this kind of writing.

Regarding the context for the player to know the right answer - if the writers truly are going for indoctrination, do you think there'll be a sign over the answer saying "choose here to end your endoctrination"?

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post #244 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 01:42 PM
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Who's to say that there aren't other rules to indoctrination that the audience has never encountered?

See what I mean?

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post #245 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 02:17 PM
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But you're thinking of indoctrination based on the rules of how the mind works. Indoctrination breaks the mind, therefore rewriting those rules. So far, the only rule we really know about indoctrination is the more control exerted, the less capable someone is. Therefore, for Shepard to be as capable as he is in 1, 2, and 3, control has to be as fractional as possible. Who's to say that there aren't other rules to indoctrination that the audience has never encountered?

Ever seen the movie Lucky Number Slevin? A great example of this kind of writing.

Regarding the context for the player to know the right answer - if the writers truly are going for indoctrination, do you think there'll be a sign over the answer saying "choose here to end your endoctrination"?

How do you know that rule, when any or all of anything that happens in the series can be indoctrinated hallucinations. Heck, your path through each game is fairly linear and limited, and each interaction gives you only a handful of choices. Why couldn't Shepard refuse to become a Specter and retire to the country side? Obviously the Reapers were controlling her from the start. Right?
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post #246 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 04:17 PM
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Indoctrination is supposed to be so subtle that you never even notice the difference. Imagine a line that goes straight ahead, but is slightly off - by a .00000001%. At some point, you'll realize that the line has changed. But not for a very long time. That's indoctrination.

Spyder, I don't see this as "haha I'm right you're wrong". I see this as a group of adults who are much more intelligent than others discussing their opinions on something completely unrelated to the overall intent of the forum. As many have suggested, this ending DLC may just be crap and not provide any answers anyways.

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post #247 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by The Sapient View Post

Since the Reapers never have destroyed all life in the universe, and from what we can tell have neer tried to, this implies that what Shepard "knew" from the first Prothean beacon is suspect.

Sorry, I meant galaxy, and only the species who discovered mass relays.


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post #248 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord_Zath View Post

Indoctrination is supposed to be so subtle that you never even notice the difference. Imagine a line that goes straight ahead, but is slightly off - by a .00000001%. At some point, you'll realize that the line has changed. But not for a very long time. That's indoctrination.

Sure. What makes you think that indoctrination was not complete at the first stop at Eden Prime? Or at Shepard's birth? Remember that in game evidence is suspect when once we accept that the game is lying to the player about the plot (such as showing ME Relays exploding all over the galaxy).

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Sorry, I meant galaxy, and only the species who discovered mass relays.

I wasn't getting at the galaxy/universe distinction. I was getting at the fact that the reapers do not try to destroy all life. They destroy, and maybe assimilate(?), space faring civilizations.

I've been thinking more about this. We hear that the Reapers need to be stopped, not destroyed, often in the game. Why do the writers go out of their way so often to avoid the word "destroy"?

If the IT is true, is it not more likely that the simple, selfish path where Shepard lives is the only one where indoctrination is not broken? If we are claiming there is an inverse relationship between players understanding the plot and the genius of the writers, surely my new theory paints the writers in the best light.
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post #249 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 07:57 PM
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Aside from just being an annoying devil's advocate, I have a plot question. Do we know how the Reapers got from Dark Space (or where ever they were) to the galaxy? In ME1 we were told they needed the Citadel. I assumed this was because they were a long, long way away. But they seemed to have been able to travel that distance in a matter of years, which is a short time for them, yes?

Was this addressed in The Arrival DLC?
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post #250 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by The Sapient View Post

Aside from just being an annoying devil's advocate, I have a plot question. Do we know how the Reapers got from Dark Space (or where ever they were) to the galaxy? In ME1 we were told they needed the Citadel. I assumed this was because they were a long, long way away. But they seemed to have been able to travel that distance in a matter of years, which is a short time for them, yes?

Was this addressed in The Arrival DLC?

The Citadel was the main relay for the Reapers, as you probably know.

The story goes that the Reapers retreat beyond the edge of the galaxy after each cycle. In The Arrival, you learn that stopping Saren/Soverign has forced the Reapers to come at a much slower pace. You find a team who plan to smash an asteroid into the local relay, which is the first relay the Reapers will hit. Therefore, the relay you destroy delays their arrival by (can't remember how long).

btw, your earlier post does bring up a somewhat valid point - since you come into visual contact with Soverign, could that have been the moment indoctrination started? My guess is no, since you are unknown among the intergalactic community, and Soverign chose Saren due to his abilities and reputation...

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post #251 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord_Zath View Post

The Citadel was the main relay for the Reapers, as you probably know.

The story goes that the Reapers retreat beyond the edge of the galaxy after each cycle. In The Arrival, you learn that stopping Saren/Soverign has forced the Reapers to come at a much slower pace. You find a team who plan to smash an asteroid into the local relay, which is the first relay the Reapers will hit. Therefore, the relay you destroy delays their arrival by (can't remember how long).

btw, your earlier post does bring up a somewhat valid point - since you come into visual contact with Soverign, could that have been the moment indoctrination started? My guess is no, since you are unknown among the intergalactic community, and Soverign chose Saren due to his abilities and reputation...

Just to add to this. Soverign actually tried to send the signal to open the Citadel relay 2000 years before. When it failed he had to gather forces (Rachni) to try to do it the hard way. That failed so then he had to look around for more help (the Geth heritics). So if we assume he could Communicate with Harbinger (like the collectors) but couldn't open the citadel relay then they could have started their journey a couple thousand years ago.
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post #252 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 09:25 PM
 
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This whole argument is like someone stating "God exists" or "God does not exist." Can you prove either? Can you disprove either? Neither can be achieved, because both statements are based entirely upon faith. In the end, regardless of what we're given in the DLC, even if it is explicitly clear as to what "really happened," I suspect that many will stick to their guns, refusing to accept what was shown.

Still, whatever turns out to be the truth, the execution was as far from "genius" as is humanly possible.
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post #253 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 10:21 PM
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What makes you think that indoctrination was not complete at the first stop at Eden Prime? Or at Shepard's birth?

I think you need to watch some of these videos again. What makes us think this is that during the final indoctrination sequence, Shepard walks around in a dream like state, he doesn't get any kind of in depth dialog tree, the gun has infinite ammo, the star child character has been pulled from his consciousness, Hackett is able to speak with him, he is bleeding where he actually shot Anderson, and so on and so forth. It's all in the videos, in detail, at length, and it all adds up.

When you are able to fully control Shepard, have open dialog, make decisions, shoot enemies, change weapons, decide where you are going to travel, etc, there is nothing to lead you to believe your mind is under control. The indoctrination slowly starts growing on you through the course of the game, and when Harbinger blasts you and knocks you out cold, it's the opening it needed to get a stronger hold over your mind. I'm just not seeing the stretch, it's really quite palletable, for me at least.


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post #254 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 10:32 PM
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I think you need to watch some of these videos again. What makes us think this is that during the final indoctrination sequence, Shepard walks around in a dream like state, he doesn't get any kind of in depth dialog tree, the gun has infinite ammo, the star child character has been pulled from his consciousness, Hackett is able to speak with him, he is bleeding where he actually shot Anderson, and so on and so forth. It's all in the videos, in detail, at length, and it all adds up.

When you are able to fully control Shepard, have open dialog, make decisions, shoot enemies, change weapons, decide where you are going to travel, etc, there is nothing to lead you to believe your mind is under control. The indoctrination slowly starts growing on you through the course of the game, and when Harbinger blasts you and knocks you out cold, it's the opening it needed to get a stronger hold over your mind. I'm just not seeing the stretch, it's really quite palletable, for me at least.

I was never able to fully control Shepard.

The issue really is in how we choose to deal with the enormous plot holes at the end. If you look for an in-universe solution, you basically have to fall back on some "it was a dream" logic. If you look at it in the meta, it just seems like bad writing.

But when you start with the conclusion that the in-universe solution must have been intended, and start cherry picking evidence that conforms to your conclusion, I think you run into problems. The correct path to a free mind is Destruction. Because this is true, people who spoke of Destruction were giving you clues. These clues prove the writers intended Indoctrination Theory! Everything that does not confirm what you believe is obviously not a clue, and can therefore be ignored.

But I don't really want to argue whether IT is correct or not. Rather, my point was that if it IS correct, the writing is so bad that it is worse than it seems at face value.
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post #255 of 400 Old 04-13-2012, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord_Zath View Post

The Citadel was the main relay for the Reapers, as you probably know.

The story goes that the Reapers retreat beyond the edge of the galaxy after each cycle. In The Arrival, you learn that stopping Saren/Soverign has forced the Reapers to come at a much slower pace. You find a team who plan to smash an asteroid into the local relay, which is the first relay the Reapers will hit. Therefore, the relay you destroy delays their arrival by (can't remember how long).

Thanks. I kind of find this disappointing. It reduces the importance of the events in ME1, IMO. The Citadel's role as a mass relay was just not that key to the plans of the Reapers. Not a big deal, of course. The main thing was the the galaxy got some warning of what was coming.
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post #256 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 12:45 AM
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Rather, my point was that if it IS correct, the writing is so bad that it is worse than it seems at face value.

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I will openly answer. The ending cut scenes were not from Shepard's point of view. Good writing would have Shepard indoctrinated, but not the player after Shepard's death. Further, given those final cut scenes, what evidence is there that the hardest to achieve ending is a breaking of indoctrination? If the Reapers can trick you, the player, into thinking there really were green or blue explosions, why can't they trick you into thinking that Shepard really gasps after red explosions?

So is that your main beef assuming they planned indoctrination throughout, that the final sequences concerning the Normandy, the explosions, etc are tricking the player as opposed to Shepard? I agree that something like the Normandy fleeing and crash landing was unecessary and illogical, but logistically speaking, if the plan was a surprise indoctrinated ending, Bioware had to put something in there at the end to try and show some finality so as to not make indoctrination obvious. Those final story pieces at the end are poor, no doubt.....poor to the level that they stand out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the writing, but I can overlook them as a botched rush job to get things done if indoctrination was the true intent. That's part of what makes indoctrination so appealing - if you take the ending of ME3 at face value assuming no indoctrination, that it is the true ending to a series so rich in story and characters, it's inarguably complete trash and an insult to the fans. But if it is an indoctrination setup with a delay to gauge fan reaction before delivering the true ending, it seems brilliant.

Bioware is always big on receiving feedback, and due to all the choices throughout this series, however they ended it would have been controversial. But what they potentially may have done here with indoctrination is enabled themselves to gauge fan feedback after completing 97% of the game, when players will have a firm grasp on the story of ME3, to help shape the final ending. Fan input on a potential series ending a year or a few years ago, prior to playing through the bulk of what they intended to accomplish in ME3, is one thing. But feedback after having everyone on a level playing field after having wrapped up most story elements of the series is something completely different. Indoctrination was the tool by which they could accomplish this. Throwing enough hints and knods to the player throughout ME3 so that indoctrination stays in line and isn't a complete out of left field shocker is where the genius comes into play.

I just don't see how a fan can NOT want indoctrination. Without it, nothing makes any sense, and the series ends on an extremely low note. Bioware is smart enough to remedy that. They just sold over 4 million copies of ME3 in North America in the month of March alone - assuming they get $45 per unit in sales (no idea, just a guess), that's $180 million in sales in North America the first month on a project that probably cost them what, maybe $25 million? Factor in sales from the rest of the world and how many more copies that will sell throughout the year, and Bioware definitely does NOT want to let down its entire fan base at this stage of their business life cycle. If they successfully pull off indoctrination, it takes the amazing game that ME3 already is and pushes it to new heights.


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post #257 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 06:27 AM
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Thanks. I kind of find this disappointing. It reduces the importance of the events in ME1, IMO. The Citadel's role as a mass relay was just not that key to the plans of the Reapers. Not a big deal, of course. The main thing was the the galaxy got some warning of what was coming.

ME1 was all about delaying the Reapers. If it wasn't for the Protheans sneaking onto the Citadel and disabling the remote trigger, the Reapers would have already attacked (as ahdtv diet posted). IMO, comparing significance to plot, ME1 was more significant than ME2, but obviously not as significant as ME3.

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post #258 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 09:39 AM
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So is that your main beef assuming they planned indoctrination throughout, that the final sequences concerning the Normandy, the explosions, etc are tricking the player as opposed to Shepard? I agree that something like the Normandy fleeing and crash landing was unecessary and illogical, but logistically speaking, if the plan was a surprise indoctrinated ending, Bioware had to put something in there at the end to try and show some finality so as to not make indoctrination obvious. Those final story pieces at the end are poor, no doubt.....poor to the level that they stand out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the writing, but I can overlook them as a botched rush job to get things done if indoctrination was the true intent. That's part of what makes indoctrination so appealing - if you take the ending of ME3 at face value assuming no indoctrination, that it is the true ending to a series so rich in story and characters, it's inarguably complete trash and an insult to the fans. But if it is an indoctrination setup with a delay to gauge fan reaction before delivering the true ending, it seems brilliant.

Bioware is always big on receiving feedback, and due to all the choices throughout this series, however they ended it would have been controversial. But what they potentially may have done here with indoctrination is enabled themselves to gauge fan feedback after completing 97% of the game, when players will have a firm grasp on the story of ME3, to help shape the final ending. Fan input on a potential series ending a year or a few years ago, prior to playing through the bulk of what they intended to accomplish in ME3, is one thing. But feedback after having everyone on a level playing field after having wrapped up most story elements of the series is something completely different. Indoctrination was the tool by which they could accomplish this. Throwing enough hints and knods to the player throughout ME3 so that indoctrination stays in line and isn't a complete out of left field shocker is where the genius comes into play.

I just don't see how a fan can NOT want indoctrination. Without it, nothing makes any sense, and the series ends on an extremely low note. Bioware is smart enough to remedy that. They just sold over 4 million copies of ME3 in North America in the month of March alone - assuming they get $45 per unit in sales (no idea, just a guess), that's $180 million in sales in North America the first month on a project that probably cost them what, maybe $25 million? Factor in sales from the rest of the world and how many more copies that will sell throughout the year, and Bioware definitely does NOT want to let down its entire fan base at this stage of their business life cycle. If they successfully pull off indoctrination, it takes the amazing game that ME3 already is and pushes it to new heights.

It isn't just the ending cinematics. The fact that IT proponents have to cherry pick evidence, ignoring the vast bulk of the plotting. But if what you say is true, it is far, far worse than that. Intentionally making the writing obscure because they need months of fans arguments to tell them how to express their ideas is terrible. They lack the artistic vision to tell a story without fan-informed DLC?

I'm mildly active in these discussions, and I don't care enough to actually play through the upcoming DLC. Most players probably will never even know it was created. They've played and moved on. It is too late to successfully pull off IT. The game was published. If IT was intended, it was a failure.

My personal opinion is that the writers did a disservice to the players with their ending, whatever it was they intended. But I also feel that the ending is what it is, and BioWare should not be trying to rewrite or re-present it after the fact. Their vision was what their vision was. I don't like their vision. I'm content with that.
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It isn't just the ending cinematics. The fact that IT proponents have to cherry pick evidence, ignoring the vast bulk of the plotting. But if what you say is true, it is far, far worse than that. Intentionally making the writing obscure because they need months of fans arguments to tell them how to express their ideas is terrible. They lack the artistic vision to tell a story without fan-informed DLC?

I'm mildly active in these discussions, and I don't care enough to actually play through the upcoming DLC. Most players probably will never even know it was created. They've played and moved on. It is too late to successfully pull off IT. The game was published. If IT was intended, it was a failure.

My personal opinion is that the writers did a disservice to the players with their ending, whatever it was they intended. But I also feel that the ending is what it is, and BioWare should not be trying to rewrite or re-present it after the fact. Their vision was what their vision was. I don't like their vision. I'm content with that.

But what's their vision? That's the whole reason we're discussing the IT theory and others.

You're absolutely right about the ending - they've done a great disservice, and I think we can all agree to that. Maybe that's why we're so focused on theories about the ending - we want closure that we didn't get, and will hopefully get in a couple months.

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post #260 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Lord_Zath View Post


But what's their vision? That's the whole reason we're discussing the IT theory and others.

You're absolutely right about the ending - they've done a great disservice, and I think we can all agree to that. Maybe that's why we're so focused on theories about the ending - we want closure that we didn't get, and will hopefully get in a couple months.

My guess is their vision is exactly what we're doing now, minus the distaste and animosity towards the writers. I think they wanted us second guessing what things meant, not second guessing what they were thinking.

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post #261 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

My guess is their vision is exactly what we're doing now, minus the distaste and animosity towards the writers. I think they wanted us second guessing what things meant, not second guessing what they were thinking.

Very possible. My guess is they ran out of time and had to throw something together to meet a deadline, figuring they'd finish it up later with DLC/patch.

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post #262 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Lord_Zath View Post


Very possible. My guess is they ran out of time and had to throw something together to meet a deadline, figuring they'd finish it up later with DLC/patch.

That's certainly not what they're saying in interviews. No real silver lining to it either way.

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post #263 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by The Sapient View Post

I'm mildly active in these discussions, and I don't care enough to actually play through the upcoming DLC. Most players probably will never even know it was created. They've played and moved on. It is too late to successfully pull off IT

You, spyder, and other casual ME fans or newcomers to the series - sure. But I highly doubt this is the stance of fans who regard this series as their favorite ever, who have eagerly waited for ME2 since completing ME1, and for ME3 after completing ME2. That's the core audience. The new casual fans they picked up through marketing since being bought by EA is great for them from a business perspective, but it's not their core audience. For me, moving on to other games isn't all that appealing right now, as all other games are a definite notch down in comparison to ME3. It was the same way with ME1 and ME2. I eventually get around to other games, but nothing else quite holds up.

GTA 4, MGS4, Dead Space 1 & 2, Gears of War 2 & 3, Lost Planet, RE5, Uncharted 2, etc, are all games I played after having played ME1 or ME1 & ME2, and while they were all really good games, they were watered down to me personally because of how great the ME games were. ME3 is even better than the previous games, so now I'm really in trouble.


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post #264 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

You, spyder, and other casual ME fans or newcomers to the series - sure. But I highly doubt this is the stance of fans who regard this series as their favorite ever, who have eagerly waited for ME2 since completing ME1, and for ME3 after completing ME2. That's the core audience. The new casual fans they picked up through marketing since being bought by EA is great for them from a business perspective, but it's not their core audience. For me, moving on to other games isn't all that appealing right now, as all other games are a definite notch down in comparison to ME3. It was the same way with ME1 and ME2. I eventually get around to other games, but nothing else quite holds up.

GTA 4, MGS4, Dead Space 1 & 2, Gears of War 2 & 3, Lost Planet, RE5, Uncharted 2, etc, are all games I played after having played ME1 or ME1 & ME2, and while they were all really good games, they were watered down to me personally because of how great the ME games were. ME3 is even better than the previous games, so now I'm really in trouble.

Oh, I'm hardly a casual ME fan. I think ME1 wasn't just a great game, but great science fiction. I am a fan of quality, not of a brand. I'm not going to pretend that the preposterously poor quality of the ending is gold simply because I loved the rest of the series. I'm not going to buy into silly theories about the ending simply because there was a lot of good writing elsewhere. The vast majority of the series reeks of quality. The ending is riddled with problems. That is just the way it is.

This aside, I don't see how distinguishing between the "core" audience and everyone else justifies an inability of the writers to find a way to end the series. You seem to be arguing that BioWare's brilliance lies in a complete and utter failure of artistic vision and communication skills.

I've read great books with lousy endings. I don't sit around waiting for the author to publish the "real" ending. I don't pretend the ending is anything other than it was. I accept it and move on. People are fallible. Not work of art is perfect. So what?
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post #265 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 01:18 PM
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This aside, I don't see how distinguishing between the "core" audience and everyone else justifies an inability of the writers to find a way to end the series. You seem to be arguing that BioWare's brilliance lies in a complete and utter failure of artistic vision and communication skills.

No, that's not what I'm getting at, you just keep changing your argument. You said you and others won't get the DLC and are done playing ME3 - I'm saying you and casual fans may well be, but the core audience wants to play the DLC to get the real ending.

When I asked what your main objection to an ID ending is, you said it was that the ending wasn't from an ID Shepard's point of view. I agree that the current ending's attempt at logic in regards to the mass relays and Normandy is very weak and poorly written, but that is not directly a result of an ID ending, it's just poor writing. You haven't presented any clear objections to an ID ending itself.

To be clear, I'm not saying the star child, mass relay destruction, Normandy flight, etc is genius - far from it. What I like about the ending from an ID perspective is that it has messed with all of our minds in terms of questioning the logic, making us not want to accept the ending in its current state, and >50% don't recognize it as ID. Those three things make it a successful ID. If the ending made perfect sense, tied up all loose ends, and everybody understood it, everything would have been fine, but it couldn't have possibly been an ID ending. ID by it's nature would have to achieve the three things this ending did. So as a player, to digest the ending, we either must accept it as trash, or we accept it as a cleverly pulled off ID. I don't see too much grey area. I say Bioware is too good to make the first option true, and there is a lot of evidence to support the second option. The 3 options we are presented with, which tie directly back to Saren, TIM, and Shepard him or herself, as well as Shepard waking back up in the rubble on London with a high enough EMS score and the selection of the correct option are enough evidence on their own to support ID, regardless of all the other evidence.

You and others may not like the idea of an ID ending with a delay to gauge fan reaction, and that's fine. But me personally, I think it's awesome, and it will probably go down in video game history as one of the most notorious events ever.


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post #266 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 02:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

You, spyder, and other casual ME fans or newcomers to the series - sure. ...

LOLZ. Considering that me, my wife, and my son have ALL played every single game in the entire series MULTIPLE TIMES on release day, along with discussed the game between ourselves and many others, it's laughable that you'd call us "casual ME fans."

Just because we don't accept getting shafted from BW/EA with a smile, doesn't mean that we're not hardcore fans. Hell, I love my family and would defend them to the death, but it would be insane to consider them to be perfect in every way. Why would I do that for some gaming company that bent their fans over, regardless of reason?

As to not playing other games becasue "ME is so good," I ask this: Do I stop eating once I've had a phenomenal meal? Stop watching movies after viewing a great one? Stop reading any and all forms of the written word after finishing a good book?

ME was good at what it did. 99% of the series was superb. Other games are also incredibly good at what they do. ME will never, ever, ever give me a multiplayer experience like the Battlefield or L4D series. It will never have me at the edge of my seat the way the Bioshock and Dead Space games did. It can never give me the total free-roam immersion of a Fallout or Elder Scrolls game. I refuse to miss out on the variety and splendor of other things just because I like ME. That doesn't make me any less a fan, in fact, it's just the oppposite. I'd dare say I'm far more of a gaming fan than yourself.

Not that it matters. Hardcore and casual fans alike both fell victim to incredibly poor execution in the end.
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post #267 of 400 Old 04-14-2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

No, that's not what I'm getting at, you just keep changing your argument. You said you and others won't get the DLC and are done playing ME3 - I'm saying you and casual fans may well be, but the core audience wants to play the DLC to get the real ending.

That wasn't an "argument". It was a statement regarding my plans. We know that around 40% of Xbox's are not even hooked up to the internet. I would guess that most of the remaining never look for DLC released after they have finished the game.

Now, you are describing a core fan base as one which loves and is satisfied with anything Mass Effect. But they are not releasing this new ending for that group. That group is already convinced that anything that BioWare does is "genius". That group does not need placating.

They are spending all that money in the hopes of winning back people like me. I'm a fan of ME because I am a fan of quality story telling. But I also don't believe in do-overs. They presented their vision. It fell short.

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When I asked what your main objection to an ID ending is, you said it was that the ending wasn't from an ID Shepard's point of view.

That is not even close to correct. I used that as an example of why the IT does not work. That ending is not from Shepard's perspective, yet we still see it. We see the star child that is not there, according to IT, because we are seeing the world as Shepard sees it. But we also see the galaxy from a completely outsider perspective. We see mass relays being destroyed. We see the Normandy crash land. We see the distant future. So either IT is wrong, or it is written very badly.

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You haven't presented any clear objections to an ID ending itself.

Uuuuhhhhggg. I think we are done here.
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post #268 of 400 Old 04-15-2012, 01:06 AM
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We know that around 40% of Xbox's are not even hooked up to the internet. I would guess that most of the remaining never look for DLC released after they have finished the game.

If that were true, then nobody would have played Bring Down the Sky, Kasumi's Stolen Memory, Overlord, Lair of the Shadow Broker, or Arrival. Oh wait, lots of people did, and those cost money.

Surely nobody would be interested in a free DLC that concludes the entire series.....nahh.

Also, your 40% statistic is a red herring. As of 2010, there were ~25 million Xbox Live subscribers - we can assume that number is higher today with more systems sold. ME3 sell through rate in North America is somewhere less than 4 million, so there is no reason to believe only 40% of ME3 owners have access to Live. It could be 100%.


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post #269 of 400 Old 04-15-2012, 08:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Also, your 40% statistic is a red herring. As of 2010, there were ~25 million Xbox Live subscribers - we can assume that number is higher today with more systems sold. ME3 sell through rate in North America is somewhere less than 4 million, so there is no reason to believe only 40% of ME3 owners have access to Live. It could be 100%.

Or, it could be 0%.

It doesn't really matter. Those with or without Live that have unwavering faith in the indocitrination theory HYPOTHESIS can simply envision Shepard riding off toward the sunset...at least until she falls off the edge of our flat Earth. Even then, such an event would be irrelevant. BW/EA worshippers can sleep and dream in peace, swaddled in their belief that the sun and stars will still revolve around the Earth tomorrow.
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post #270 of 400 Old 04-15-2012, 11:08 AM
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