No Kinect 2 for Xbox Next ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 05-25-2012, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...s-kudo-tsunoda



This sounds very, very bad. F that noise. They need a 100 percent revised Kinect 2. They can try all the software tricks in the book, but if the next Kinect doesn't feature dramatically improved cameras, microphones, etc, etc. Kinect needs to be improved in many ways.

This guy still works for Microsoft... right ? If he still works there, then he definitely knows whats up with Xbox Next, and if that's the case, then it appears that there is no revised Kinect on the horizon.


How lame.
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post #2 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 02:40 AM
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You're reading a ton into that article. It doesn't even mention the Xbox 720 for starters.

All it simply states is the obvious. Gamers don't have to wait for an upgrade to see significant advances in Microsoft's motion sensing. The developers are still learning the device and there's a lot of untapped potential here that can still be realized with the current Kinect hardware.
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post #3 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 06:41 AM
 
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Good job taking a very plainly put together article that very simply states "No Kinect 2 on the current console" and pretending that it's talking about something entirely different. As Leo says, this has not even the most cursory relation to the next Xbox.
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post #4 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Good job taking a very plainly put together article that very simply states "No Kinect 2 on the current console" and pretending that it's talking about something entirely different. As Leo says, this has not even the most cursory relation to the next Xbox.

I think you need to read the article again. He never said anything about "No Kinect 2 on the current console". If he did, then there would at least be some reason to hope.

The gist of what he was saying is that people that are talking about a "new" Kinect should probably stop thinking about a new Kinect, because it's not happening. That's pretty much the gist of what he's saying. Does he come right out and say that specifically? Not exactly, but if you read what he actually says, it's pretty easy to understand that this is what he's trying to get across.


I'm sure Kudo see's the various posts on message boards and the tweets and such. He hears the podcasts. There is a general feeling among the gaming Illuminati that a new, and improved Kinect is a given with the next Xbox. He seems to suggest that folks ought to "curb their enthusiasm", because they have no plans whatsoever to bring out any new Kinect hardware.

Now, one may argue that he's only saying this, because if he were to say anything about a "Kinect 2", it would have an adverse effect on the current sales of the Kinect. I would certainly understand this sentiment, but at the same time, if this is the case, then why would he open up his pie-hole in the first place? The way I see it, he's trying to prepare people for the disappointment that they really don't have any next level Kinect on the horizon. This wouldn't be the most shocking development in the world, either. There are many reasons for Microsoft to just stick with the current Kinect hardware, but I'm not going to get into that right now.
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post #5 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 04:07 PM
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everyone knows they're developing a newer version of the Kinect. it's been detailed at multiple websites in multiple articles.

even if they did stick with the current kinect, the new console will have a lot of benefits for it. The biggest thing holding back the current iteration of the Kinect is the USB 2.0 interface. there's not enough bandwidth because they need to reserve bandwidth for all your other USB devices, including your wireless adapter.

because of the need to reserve bandwidth for all your USB devices, the kinect hardware on the 360 is limited to 640x480 RGB resolution and a 320x240 depth sensor resolution. but stick the exact same kinect hardware on a PC and you have access to 640x480 as your depth sensor resolution which is 4X the data. The current 360 Kinect device connected to the PC can also send 20MB/sec of data as measured by the hackers writing all those cool demos. As most PC's have multiple USB controllers to drive 6+ USB ports, bandwidth is aplenty versus what the 360 offers.

With the next console which is likely to include USB 3.0, that barrier is removed and you'll see better uses of the current Kinect. You'll also have additional CPU power available to the Kinect with the next console. Even if Microsoft only included USB 2.0 on the next console, chances are they'll add more USB controllers so that there's more available bandwidth for all the devices that you can hook up.
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post #6 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post


even if they did stick with the current kinect, the new console will have a lot of benefits for it. The biggest thing holding back the current iteration of the Kinect is the USB 2.0 interface. there's not enough bandwidth because they need to reserve bandwidth for all your other USB devices, including your wireless adapter.

because of the need to reserve bandwidth for all your USB devices, the kinect hardware on the 360 is limited to 640x480 RGB resolution and a 320x240 depth sensor resolution. but stick the exact same kinect hardware on a PC and you have access to 640x480 as your depth sensor resolution which is 4X the data. The current 360 Kinect device connected to the PC can also send 20MB/sec of data as measured by the hackers writing all those cool demos. As most PC's have multiple USB controllers to drive 6+ USB ports, bandwidth is aplenty versus what the 360 offers.

With the next console which is likely to include USB 3.0, that barrier is removed and you'll see better uses of the current Kinect. You'll also have additional CPU power available to the Kinect with the next console. Even if Microsoft only included USB 2.0 on the next console, chances are they'll add more USB controllers so that there's more available bandwidth for all the devices that you can hook up.

Kudo.... is that you?


You basically made Kudo's argument for him. First, you say that MS is definitely working on Kinect 2, and then you have two paragraphs listing exactly why new Kinect hardware really isn't needed. You made my case for me. Thanks.
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post #7 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 04:25 PM
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I'm not making any case. just trying to throw out some logic rather than just another ill-informed inflammatory piece. I don't care what Kudo says. He's just a producer, and I don't know his technical background. From what I've seen, it's not very high. He even demos some of the Kinect things wrong. The latest example was Star Wars Kinect. He was shown in a video showing the podracing. He didn't even follow the instructions of the game. In Star Wars podracing, you're pulling your arms like pulling the reins of a horse. To turn left, you pull your left arm backwards while your right arm goes forward. But in the demonstration he did, he drove it like it was a car in Joy Ride. A Kinect spokesperson who didn't even bother to demonstrate the game correctly.

most of the people criticizing the kinect don't really use one. their opinion is based on what other people tell them or what they see at places like best buy which are least likely places to properly calibrate and setup something like the kinect. there is so much misinformation out there that it's hard for anyone to get a clear head.

there will be another kinect. but even if there wasn't plenty of room to do things with the current one.
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post #8 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 05:13 PM
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A lot of misinformation from what sounds like a pretty straightforward interview. Here's what Kunoda said according to the linked article in the OP:

Quote:


"It's not where you have to wait for Kinect 2 for something to be different as much as the more that we're able to play with Kinect and update Kinect over time, all of the capabilities in all different types of scenarios, we're going to keep pushing. I think that, again, it means both the evolution of existing features as well as the invention of new ones," he said.

He's not saying there won't be a Kinect 2. He's just saying there's a lot that can still be done with the current hardware. It's like Microsoft saying that there's still a lot to be done with the current 360 hardware. But that doesn't rule out a 720 or Nextbox or whatever.

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post #9 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 05:15 PM
 
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Confidence, you should know better than to try and and use "reason" in a thread like this.
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post #10 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 10:38 PM
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Is AVS having a contest for posting the most threads about the "Next" xbox?

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The words above are based on loose facts mixed with my opinion, the latter of which is subject to change.

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post #11 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Confidence, you should know better than to try and and use "reason" in a thread like this.

I'm a sucker for exciting and sensationalist news as much as the next person, so I'm not really a good one to judge.

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post #12 of 28 Old 05-26-2012, 11:05 PM
 
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Morkeleb - You'll notice that every one of them are started by the same person. There is only one person competing here, with himself.
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post #13 of 28 Old 05-27-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I post in all the various forums on AVS and it's funny to me how the Xbox forum seems to be the most sensitive... When did this happen? I thought Nintendo diehards were the sensitive ones...


Look, when I read that article, the first thing that I thought was.... "Damn, no new Kinect for the next console". Other people can read that article and think of something totally different. To each their own. His comments to me, sounded like he was trying to curb everybody's enthusiasm in regards to a new version of Kinect, because it just ain't happening...(at least not for launch...)

Again, he didn't actually say that, but after reading that article, that's what I took from it. I listen to a ton of gaming podcasts, and read a bunch of gaming blogs and forums, and I'm sure Kudo is the same way. It's probably part of his job to know how the gaming public is reacting to things. The common perception out there, among the gaming press, etc, etc, is that a Next-Gen Kinect is a given. Like there is no question whatsoever that a new Xbox console is going to have a brand new, next-gen version of Kinect packed inside it.


Is that not the general consensus?


To me, Kudo is trying to let these people down gently, because he knows the general gaming press is going to be very disappointed when they find out that a new Kinect isn't coming anytime soon. Reading those comments, to me, it sounds like he's trying to get in front of that potential negative reaction and diffuse it a bit, before it's confirmed.

The timing of those comments is a bit curious with e3 only a week or so away now.
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post #14 of 28 Old 05-27-2012, 05:46 PM
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Kudo Tsunoda is not a community manager. His job is not to watch the pulse of the people.

He is a producer who's job is to make sure projects are on time, deadlines are being met, milestones are being met, and projects are being supplied.
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post #15 of 28 Old 05-27-2012, 06:15 PM
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I actually hope they do abandon this Kinect stuff and I hope Sony lets Move go the way of the Do-Do Bird also. We don't need it, people aren't clammoring for it, the performance and control precision isnt there yet, and the games by in large are uninspiring. Motion gaming can just evaporate into the nothingness of space for all I care.

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post #16 of 28 Old 05-27-2012, 06:33 PM
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too bad you can't find a use for it.

useful in the dash and some great gaming. just because you don't like it, don't dump your opinion on people that do enjoy it. additional gaming choices is never a bad thing. there's something for everyone and it's not for you apparently.

never understood how the kinect affects people. if you don't like something, just stick to what you like. works for most people.
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post #17 of 28 Old 05-27-2012, 07:15 PM
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Sure it's nice for the dash but so is moving the left stick, so is it necessary? Ours just sits on top of the plasma, staring at me, but my wife is even bored with the dance games now. It just isn't needed, or fun, and the last time I checked, we don't all have to agree here.

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post #18 of 28 Old 05-27-2012, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblank74 View Post

Sure it's nice for the dash but so is moving the left stick, so is it necessary? Ours just sits on top of the plasma, staring at me, but my wife is even bored with the dance games now. It just isn't needed, or fun, and the last time I checked, we don't all have to agree here.

Your experience is similar to mine. We just don't use our Kinect much. I especially don't use it for the Dash. Waving my hand around will never be as easy as pushing a button or stick on my remote or controller.
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post #19 of 28 Old 05-27-2012, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I actually hope they do abandon this Kinect stuff and I hope Sony lets Move go the way of the Do-Do Bird also. We don't need it, people aren't clammoring for it, the performance and control precision isnt there yet, and the games by in large are uninspiring. Motion gaming can just evaporate into the nothingness of space for all I care.



I totally understand what you're saying but at the same time... I do think that Motion Controls could have value in certain games. A first person Tennis game, that used a new, more advanced Kinect, in addition to a Move like controller device that works in collaboration with the Kinect, would give us a sensational tennis simulator. The Kinect just needs to pay attention to the floorspace, and where the feet are moving, and the Move like wand thing would give all the rest of the info. Plus, with a wand, you'd have rumble.

Also, baseball ? Ping-Pong ? Volleball ? Light Gun style shooters ?


Why not ?
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post #20 of 28 Old 05-28-2012, 08:53 PM
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Not many people have living rooms equal to the size of 1/2 of a tennis court. Movement in tennis games is best done with an analog stick with motion being limited to the racket itself. What you want just isn't practical.

I don't own a Move, but I think it's pretty useful for lightgun style shooters and other niches. I hope it sticks around. Kinect on the other hand hasn't had anything that has grabbed me yet and I've been underwhelming when trying it.

I think motion gaming has its place, although I don't think it will ever be what Nintendo was trying to get us to buy into and I'm not sure Kinect and Move will ever reach the level of commercial success I think they were dreaming of as the Wii was growing by leaps and bounds.

But in limited areas, it's great and I believe it has a future.
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post #21 of 28 Old 05-28-2012, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

Not many people have living rooms equal to the size of 1/2 of a tennis court. Movement in tennis games is best done with an analog stick with motion being limited to the racket itself. What you want just isn't practical.


Look, certainly very few people have a living room that large, but I'm sure the game could exaggerate your movements, so that when you lunge to the left, it kind of automatically reacts to how far your player would need to go left. The larger your living room, the less it would have to fudge, but those with smaller living rooms could still play the game.


I rented that Personal Trainer game one time. The Ubisoft one that is widely considered one of the best Kinect games. When playing that game, there is this certain part, where it really seems like Kinect can see a 8 foot wide, 6 feet deep space in my living room, and as I would move around within that space it would perfectly track me. The first time I saw that, I immediately thought about the potential for that in a Tennis game. It just seemed so obvious. The only thing is, playing Tennis with my hand just seems rather .... how do I say it.... the word I'm searching for just isn't very appropriate, but give me a damn Move wand Microsoft... For the love of God.
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post #22 of 28 Old 05-29-2012, 11:58 AM
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The only thing is, playing Tennis with my hand just seems rather .... how do I say it.... the word I'm searching for just isn't very appropriate, but give me a damn Move wand Microsoft... For the love of God.

Just buy a very lightweight Racketball Racket Anthony. If you need something in your hand for the game to feel real. The cheaper the better. That should work better than a wand...shouldn't it? Will Kinect still track your motion with the Racket in Hand? If so...problem solved much cheaper.
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post #23 of 28 Old 05-29-2012, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
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Look, certainly very few people have a living room that large, but I'm sure the game could exaggerate your movements, so that when you lunge to the left, it kind of automatically reacts to how far your player would need to go left. The larger your living room, the less it would have to fudge, but those with smaller living rooms could still play the game.

I thought of that, but I'm not sure how well such a system would work out where a minor movement on screen represents a much more significant shift with your onscreen character.

I suspect motion tennis games are best left to Wii Sports style efforts where the player only handles the racket.
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post #24 of 28 Old 06-01-2012, 01:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Just buy a very lightweight Racketball Racket Anthony. If you need something in your hand for the game to feel real. The cheaper the better. That should work better than a wand...shouldn't it? Will Kinect still track your motion with the Racket in Hand? If so...problem solved much cheaper.

I want the rumble too, and the more accurate wrist movement tracking for slicing and such.
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post #25 of 28 Old 06-01-2012, 10:16 AM
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I want the rumble too, and the more accurate wrist movement tracking for slicing and such.

ugh...

slicing doesn't have wrist action. It's a high to low chopping down motion.

this is the problem with emulating sports in motion gaming. gamers expectations with reality. People want to play video game sports to be like the pros and hit pro-like shots. But let's say that the technology is perfect and you could have perfectly realistic movements, people would hate it. If people could perform like the pros, they would be in the pros.

It takes months for a beginner to just learn how to keep the tennis ball on the court rather than moonballing it. No gamer would have the patience to learn tennis like that in a video game. They want to play like Roger Federer.

Same thing with golf. Golf doesn't have wrist action. And it takes thousands of shots regularly just to be a pro. And even taking hundreds of shots daily, the pros will still regularly shank balls.

I play real tennis (USTA 4.0 rating). So I cringe every time I hear people think that tennis, table tennis, and racquetball have the same swing motion.
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post #26 of 28 Old 06-01-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post


ugh...

slicing doesn't have wrist action. It's a high to low chopping down motion.

this is the problem with emulating sports in motion gaming. gamers expectations with reality. People want to play video game sports to be like the pros and hit pro-like shots. But let's say that the technology is perfect and you could have perfectly realistic movements, people would hate it. If people could perform like the pros, they would be in the pros.

It takes months for a beginner to just learn how to keep the tennis ball on the court rather than moonballing it. No gamer would have the patience to learn tennis like that in a video game. They want to play like Roger Federer.

Same thing with golf. Golf doesn't have wrist action. And it takes thousands of shots regularly just to be a pro. And even taking hundreds of shots daily, the pros will still regularly shank balls.

I play real tennis (USTA 4.0 rating). So I cringe every time I hear people think that tennis, table tennis, and racquetball have the same swing motion.

I agree as a general game realism would be bad. However a simulation would be nice for people who actually play the sport and want an in home trainer. Obviously this is a much smaller market than actual gamers.
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post #27 of 28 Old 06-01-2012, 05:50 PM
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I agree as a general game realism would be bad. However a simulation would be nice for people who actually play the sport and want an in home trainer. Obviously this is a much smaller market than actual gamers.

yes, this is the problem with Rocksmith. people thought it'd be cool to make a game out of real guitar playing.

but playing the guitar is really really hard work. not that Rocksmith isn't successful. it is by a certain metric. but the target audience is extremely small and Rocksmith doesn't appeal to anyone except those who want to learn guitar.

when it was Guitar Hero and Rock Band, you got to experience the music in a novel way even though you were only pressing 5 buttons on a fake guitar. that was enough for the vast majority of gamers. guitar players were crying about why people were spending $200 on a band kit when you can get a beginner guitar often for cheaper. why play fake plastic instruments rather than the real deal? it's that people want to experience it without having to go through the pains of learning it.

this is the fail of the allure of playing sports "the real way" in video games. gamers say they want realism but do they really? gamers need reward. gamers need that dopamine flowing through their brain to get their reward fix.
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post #28 of 28 Old 06-01-2012, 07:30 PM
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I actually hope they do abandon this Kinect stuff and I hope Sony lets Move go the way of the Do-Do Bird also. We don't need it, people aren't clammoring for it, the performance and control precision isnt there yet, and the games by in large are uninspiring. Motion gaming can just evaporate into the nothingness of space for all I care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jblank74 View Post

Sure it's nice for the dash but so is moving the left stick, so is it necessary? Ours just sits on top of the plasma, staring at me, but my wife is even bored with the dance games now. It just isn't needed, or fun, and the last time I checked, we don't all have to agree here.

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Your experience is similar to mine. We just don't use our Kinect much. I especially don't use it for the Dash. Waving my hand around will never be as easy as pushing a button or stick on my remote or controller.

I have to say, this is how it is at my house now too! Myself and my kids Loved this kinect for about the first two months... Now.... Not so much. It became a source of aggravation while playing to be honest.

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