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post #1 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.bethblog.com/2012/05/30/a...3-bfg-edition/

Doom 3 is coming to 360 in a remastered form with it's expansion and some cut levels. It also looks to be integrating an on-armor flashlight, which I'm not so sure about. I very much hope that the original "flashlight or gun" gameplay remains an option. Most PC players of the original game whined that you didn't always have a flashlight, then they used the duct-tape mod, then they complained that the game wasn't very good.

Yeah, that tends to happen when you take away the primary source of tension in the game, which was the primary point of Doom 3. That's like modding out the free-roaming exploration from Fallout 3, then complaining that it's not a very good linear experience.

In its original, afraid of the dark form, Doom 3 was brilliantly executed and quite the technical marvel. We owe a lot of today's rendering technique to what Doom 3 pioneered. Read a copy of Making Doom 3 if you want a pretty good inside view of how that engine was designed.
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post #2 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 11:58 AM
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Finished it on the PC as well as the Xbox1. I guess it's good for people that have good memories of it.

I don't have good memories of it. The graphics were great but the maps were so cramped, the pacing was so slow, and it was such a dark (lighting, not mood) game. And just when you think the game will finally get good, it just kind of ends. Even playing it in co-op didn't help it, we ended up bumping into each other in the tight quarters.
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post #3 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 12:15 PM
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I can't wait to play this in 3D. It wasn't the greatest playing game, but it had great atmosphere.

I wonder what kind of treatment the first two dooms are getting though...

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post #4 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"It's so terrible I bought and played it twice!"

Oh! I forgot about the 3D! Hopefully it stays up at 60fps. Being Carmack, there is a very good chance it will meet that target. I like 3D, and is a feature I made sure to get on my 64" plasma, but it sucks at 30fps. 60fps 2D feels better than 30fps 3D, but 60 fps 3D is great in practice. Too bad HDMI doesn't support 1080p/60 for 3D and caps out at 1080p/30.
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post #5 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"It's so terrible I bought and played it twice!"

actually, the PC version was illegal and the Xbox1 version was bought used via Ebay when people had moved onto the 360. I played the PC version single player. Played the Xbox1 version co-op. My friend and I were dying to play co-op system link games over the Internet and Doom3 was one of the few available.

you don't understand. I really really wanted to like Doom3. I loved Doom 1 and 2. Loved Castle Wolfenstein. Loved Quake 1&2.
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post #6 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"It's so terrible I bought and played it twice!"

Oh! I forgot about the 3D! Hopefully it stays up at 60fps. Being Carmack, there is a very good chance it will meet that target. I like 3D, and is a feature I made sure to get on my 64" plasma, but it sucks at 30fps. 60fps 2D feels better than 30fps 3D, but 60 fps 3D is great in practice. Too bad HDMI doesn't support 1080p/60 for 3D and caps out at 1080p/30.

Yeah....if anyone can do it it's Carmack.

Seems a given it'll be 60fps, but I'll be super impressed if they can maintain that in 3D, even at 720p.

Even though 1080p/60/3D is technically impossible on current HDMI, I seriously doubt any game will pull that off, even next gen.

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post #7 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"Seems a given it'll be 60fps, but I'll be super impressed if they can maintain that in 3D, even at 720p."

Shouldn't be too difficult, though it would likely be 600p/640p. Halo and COD both render 60fps, and the primary reason they use the lower resolution is so they can fit two frames in to the 10mb edram for merging to render. Essentially they already run 120fps.

"Even though 1080p/60/3D is technically impossible on current HDMI, I seriously doubt any game will pull that off, even next gen."

It's not that hard. Really though, if they can do 1920x1080/60, dropping to 960x1080/60 to gain 3D is a fair tradeoff. Humans are far more sensitive to vertical resolution than horizontal, so the largest noticeable difference will be slightly more aliasing on the small percentage of high contrast lines at almost-vertical lines. FXAA can handle those quite well with minimal performance impact.

Hoping for 1080p/60 out of the next consoles is a fantasy though. 1080p/30 is going to be the standard, and the Wii U is quite likely to only do 720p/30 as the norm.
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post #8 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 04:02 PM
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Blops dropped to 30fps in 3D though.

The sly cooper remake was the only 3D game I can think of that maintained 60fps in 3D, and I'm not even 100% sure about that.

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post #9 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 05:00 PM
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I wonder what kind of treatment the first two dooms are getting though...

Other than perhaps being 3D compatible, I doubt they'll be getting anything except a straight port.

They were already part of Doom 3 for many people. The Collector's Edition of Doom 3 included them and it was a standard part of the package for Resurrection of Evil. And they also had some issues that aren't present on the XBLA releases. I recall some significant problems with background graphics (I want to say every level used the same background, but it's been a while).

So hopefully they'll be including the XBLA versions instead of simply porting over the flawed versions included in the original package (Which also lacked online play).
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post #10 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post


Other than perhaps being 3D compatible, I doubt they'll be getting anything except a straight port.

They were already part of Doom 3 for many people. The Collector's Edition of Doom 3 included them and it was a standard part of the package for Resurrection of Evil. And they also had some issues that aren't present on the XBLA releases. I recall some significant problems with background graphics (I want to say every level used the same background, but it's been a while)..

So hopefully they'll be including the XBLA versions instead of simply porting over the flawed versions included in the original package (Which also lacked online play).

Yeah, all I'm really wondering is if they're going to attempt adding 3D to the first two. I seriously doubt it, I just can't imagine what that would look like...which is why I'm so curious about it.

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post #11 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"Blops dropped to 30fps in 3D though"

Treyarch games have never counted as COD.

More accurately in relation to this topic: You don't hold up a Treyarch COD game as the example when it comes to how to do performance related things.
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post #12 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"Blops dropped to 30fps in 3D though"

Treyarch games have never counted as COD.

More accurately in relation to this topic: You don't hold up a Treyarch COD game as the example when it comes to how to do performance related things.

But...it's the only cod in 3D.

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post #13 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We weren't talking about COD in 3D. We were talking about 720p/120 rendering. You seem to have missed the point and gotten sidetracked on "COD! COD! COD!".

The point was that there are 60fps games that already render two actual frames for merging to a single output. 60fps x 2 passes = 120fps. 60fps x 2 eyes = 120fps. That is the important comparison. How, which, or even if COD renders to 3D is absolutely irrelevant to the subject.
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post #14 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

We weren't talking about COD in 3D. We were talking about 720p/120 rendering. You seem to have missed the point and gotten sidetracked on "COD! COD! COD!".

The point was that there are 60fps games that already render two actual frames for merging to a single output. 60fps x 2 passes = 120fps. 60fps x 2 eyes = 120fps. That is the important comparison. How, which, or even if COD renders to 3D is absolutely irrelevant to the subject.

Where are getting that from? Never heard of such a thing.

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post #15 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.bungie.net/News/content.a...news&cid=12821

"You Owe me 80p!

One item making the interwebs rounds this week was the scandalous revelation that Halo 3 runs at “640p” which isn’t even technically a resolution. However, the interweb detectives did notice that Halo 3’s vertical resolution, when captured from a frame buffer, is indeed 640 pixels. So what gives? Did we short change you 80 pixels?

Naturally it’s more complicated than that. In fact, you could argue we gave you 1280 pixels of vertical resolution, since Halo 3 uses not one, but two frame buffers – both of which render at 1152x640 pixels. The reason we chose this slightly unorthodox resolution and this very complex use of two buffers is simple enough to see – lighting. We wanted to preserve as much dynamic range as possible – so we use one for the high dynamic range and one for the low dynamic range values. Both are combined to create the finished on screen image.

This ability to display a full range of HDR, combined with our advanced lighting, material and postprocessing engine, gives our scenes, large and small, a compelling, convincing and ultimately “real” feeling, and at a steady and smooth frame rate, which in the end was far more important to us than the ability to display a few extra pixels. Making this decision simpler still is the fact that the 360 scales the
“almost-720p” image effortlessly all the way up to 1080p if you so desire.

In fact, if you do a comparison shot between the native 1152x640 image and the scaled 1280x720, it’s practically impossible to discern the difference. We would ignore it entirely were it not for the internet’s propensity for drama where none exists. In fact the reason we haven’t mentioned this before in weekly updates, is the simple fact that it would have distracted conversation away from more important aspects of the game, and given tinfoil hats some new gristle to chew on as they catalogued their toenail clippings."


But now that I've dug it up, it looks like I'm misremembering Halo 3 as a 60fps game. It held a steady 30fps.

The best I can put up instead is that Geometry Wars 2 is 1080p/60. Similar math though. A 1080p frame is roughly twice the size of a 720p frame, or the same size as a 1280x1440 frame for 3D. 1080p x 60 = 720p x 2 x 60. At 60fps, GW2 has already proven that we can spit 720p/60 3D out of the 360 in terms of bandwidth. Sure, it's a simpler game to an extent, but we are talking about Doom 3, which is old.
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post #16 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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All of this is merely academic though. By no means do I expect them to pull off 720p/60 3D. I'm just saying that it physically can be done on the hardware and we have an example that says it can be.
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post #17 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 06:37 PM
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That's hardly the same thing as running at a full 120fps.

Sure the 360 technically has the bandwidth, but there's way more to it than that. Proper stereoscopy requires two separate views, geometry has to be recalculated for each eye. So it's not just a matter of needing twice the fillrate/bandwidth...it's more complex compared to a resolution shift.

That's another reason why I brought up blops - dropping to 3D brought with it a frame rate AND resolution drop - and most other games have been the same way, to varying extents. Even the ICO/SOTC remake had poorer performance in 3D, not even being able to maintain 30fps/720p. And it's a PS2 remake too!

I could imagine it being a locked 60fps in 2D, but performance fluctuating quite a bit in 3D. Doom 3 is an old game for sure...but it seems like its getting quite a bit of retouching as well.

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post #18 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
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That's hardly the same thing as running at a full 120fps.

Two individual images running at 60fps basically is equivalent to a single image running at 120fps in terms of workload.
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post #19 of 75 Old 05-30-2012, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"Proper stereoscopy requires two separate views, geometry has to be recalculated for each eye. So it's not just a matter of needing twice the fillrate/bandwidth...it's more complex compared to a resolution shift. "

Geometry and shaders have to be calculated for each pixel on the screen. Whether I'm running 640x480 for 8 eyes, or 1920x1080 for one eye, workload is very much the same. Graphics subsystems don't care about how many viewpoints there are. They care about how many dots we are trying to make. This holds true on both the hardware and software half of the equation.
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post #20 of 75 Old 05-31-2012, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

http://www.bethblog.com/2012/05/30/a...3-bfg-edition/

Doom 3 is coming to 360 in a remastered form with it's expansion and some cut levels. It also looks to be integrating an on-armor flashlight, which I'm not so sure about. I very much hope that the original "flashlight or gun" gameplay remains an option. Most PC players of the original game whined that you didn't always have a flashlight, then they used the duct-tape mod, then they complained that the game wasn't very good.

Yeah, that tends to happen when you take away the primary source of tension in the game, which was the primary point of Doom 3. That's like modding out the free-roaming exploration from Fallout 3, then complaining that it's not a very good linear experience.

In its original, afraid of the dark form, Doom 3 was brilliantly executed and quite the technical marvel. We owe a lot of today's rendering technique to what Doom 3 pioneered. Read a copy of Making Doom 3 if you want a pretty good inside view of how that engine was designed.

Amen brother!

Doom 3 got a lot of people dumping on it, being a simple, monster-closet 1-to-3-enemies-at-a-time shooter. But it was an excellent example of the old-school simple shooter in a modern (at the time) engine - great atmosphere, tension, weapons, and enemies.

And I loved the gun-or-flashlight mechanic, which really adds to the panic and blind-firing in the dark.

I know the haters will come back to dump on this game, but whatever - top 10 of all-time game for me.


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post #21 of 75 Old 05-31-2012, 10:40 AM
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Gah! It seems the flashlight-or-gun mechanic will be changed for the BFG version.

Damn whiners ruining a great game. I hope this change is optional!

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post #22 of 75 Old 05-31-2012, 05:38 PM
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Gah! It seems the flashlight-or-gun mechanic will be changed for the BFG version.

Damn whiners ruining a great game. I hope this change is optional!

That's funny, I don't remember a single strong opinion on this game one way or the other! I remember when it came out (I was still a PC guy at the time) and reading a few reviews and a few of my friends played it. No one hated it-- but then no one loved it. I remember asking a buddy of mine if it was worthy of some time as I was trying to clear a backlog of games, his response: "meh".

This writer talks about the game as if it was a long lost gem or a misunderstood classic... But then rockstar developers tend to have that affect on games even if the final product is just 'ok'. See also: Rage, L4D 2, LA Noire.

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post #23 of 75 Old 05-31-2012, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The only anger over L4D2 was that it was coming out only a year after the first. The first was still extremely popular, so the effect was going to be to split the player base.

As a product though? L4D2 is fantastic. It also shipped with 4 or 5 campaigns, then they added another 3 campaigns for free. It sees bi-weekly mutations to its multiplayer giving people a reason to come back to it repeatedly. Then of course they ported the entire first game over to the second game. For free.

Doom 3 though? People whined endlessly about the flashlight mechanic. They completely missed the point of the game in doing so. Doom 3 was executed extremely well. The public was just a little too dumb to see that.

See also: Mass Effect 3. Brilliant conclusion to the series. BioWare just overestimated their audience's intelligence by a long shot.

The lesson in both cases is: If you give your audience the chance at proving themselves grown up enough to think, and they will disappoint you and hate you for it. Follow the COD model, keep things as dumb as can be, and you'll do just fine.
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post #24 of 75 Old 05-31-2012, 05:59 PM
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I had actually dropped Doom 3: Resurrection of Evil into my 360 a few days ago; the old Xbox game still held up pretty well and I was wondering what a full on remastered version would look like. The gameplay felt a little restrictive compared to newer games and the flashlight or weapon model did quickly get a little tiresome after repeated playthrus but I'll still probably end up buying this game just because I've always been a big Doom fan. The fact that it will support 3D is a nice little bonus as well and I wouldn't be surprised if the reason we'll be getting a constant flashlight option is because of the 3D support.

I'm still not clear on a couple of things though:

- I seem to recall that the Xbox version of Doom 3 had some simplified versions of some levels (the outdoor ones on Mar for example), mainly because of memory restrictions. I wonder if we'll be getting a port of the Xbox version or the slightly more expansive PC version.

- Will Doom and Doom 2 be remastered in any way or will they still be the old pixelated wonders from the bygone 486 days? Even giving them a GLQuake coating would be a nice addition.
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post #25 of 75 Old 05-31-2012, 07:08 PM
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I have to imagine its the PC version.

I don't expect much from doom 1-2. I mean it's technically not even a polygonal 3D game. They'd have to entirely rebuild the game from scratch.

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post #26 of 75 Old 05-31-2012, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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One of the big innovations of Doom 3 was to use extremely high polygon source models, use a much lower polygon model in game, then use a normal map to give the impression of the higher count model on the lower count asset. I hope that in this version they go back to the original models and source higher quality in game models and higher resolution normal maps than what we see in the PC version. They may not though, as I'd guess the limited ram on a 360 and especially the PS3 would restrict model resolution.
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post #27 of 75 Old 06-01-2012, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"Blops dropped to 30fps in 3D though"

Treyarch games have never counted as COD.

More accurately in relation to this topic: You don't hold up a Treyarch COD game as the example when it comes to how to do performance related things.

Until Black Ops became the #1 seller in the CoD series and, arguably, made a better game than MW3......one off got lucky or crown the new king...only time will tell.

RE: DOOM 3, Doom 3 is a simple shooter that honestly can be a lot of fun on a console but only if they tweak the controls. Doom3 was a game that had me doing a lot of whipping around with the mouse, and they
already announced they have created the "armor cam" So the game has fundamentally changed from a "Do I stumble around in the dark with a weapon or use my flashlight instead".......not that anyone on the PC didn't immediately apply the "Duct Tape" mod, but the Xbox gamers were SOL on that one. I think I have Doom3 for the xbox, probably paid $10...dont think i ever played it...

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post #28 of 75 Old 06-01-2012, 09:01 AM
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@darklordjames You misunderstood me-- I was saying that games like L4D, Rage and LA Noir get a lot of respect due to the pedigree of their developer even though the game is wholly mediocre.

I wouldn't have complained about the short turn around for the l4d2 release had it not been so... meh. Yes, IMO, l4d2 is not nearly as good as it's predecessor and if you're going to release a game that quick after the last one (looking at you, CoD) you had better damn well make sure you have something of value to add to earn my $60. I bought l4d2 on release based solely on my love of the first game despite my reservations about the melee system... Well it turns out my fears were right: melee never works in first person. I'll chalk up my temporary insanity to Dice convincing me through Mirror's Edge that a first person platformer COULD work-- and if a FPP could work than surely Valve could make a FPM work, right? Wrong.

Not saying doom 3 is or isn't a mediocre game-- I haven't played it so I can't make any assertion-- but that's certainly the impression I got after it released.

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post #29 of 75 Old 06-01-2012, 09:14 AM
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@darklordjames
Lol! I gotta say your last post come off a bit... pretentious. It's your opinion that Doom3 was executed perfectly and honestly if someone doesn't like the game I hardly see how that could be a reflection on their intelligence!

It's a bit like when we were in elementary school:

Kid A: "Aquaman is the best super hero."

Kid B: "No he's not"

Kid A: "Yes he is and you're STUPID for not agreeing with me!"

Not saying there aren't dumb people in the world (and certainly not saying there aren't dumb gamers) but saying someone is dumb just because thy point out that something is **** isn't really making a sound argument-- on either side! Lol!

All this talk has gotten me intrigued. Now I want to play Doom3 and see what the deal really is with this game...

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post #30 of 75 Old 06-01-2012, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

@darklordjames
Lol! I gotta say your last post come off a bit... pretentious. It's your opinion that Doom3 was executed perfectly and honestly if someone doesn't like the game I hardly see how that could be a reflection on their intelligence!

It's a bit like when we were in elementary school:

Kid A: "Aquaman is the best super hero."

Kid B: "No he's not"

Kid A: "Yes he is and you're STUPID for not agreeing with me!"

Not saying there aren't dumb people in the world (and certainly not saying there aren't dumb gamers) but saying someone is dumb just because thy point out that something is **** isn't really making a sound argument-- on either side! Lol!

All this talk has gotten me intrigued. Now I want to play Doom3 and see what the deal really is with this game...

Did you play doom 1 or 2?

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