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post #1 of 69 Old 11-23-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I want to replace my RPTV with a newer flatscreen but I am seeing that the 2011-2012 plasmas are having the image retention issues AGAIN mad.gif

I thought Panasonic got rid of the burn-in issues back in 2010 but apparently it's back...what are you guys using for your tvs...I will be wanting at least a 50" and 1080p.
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post #2 of 69 Old 11-23-2012, 05:50 PM
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Plasma.

Always and forever. Well atleast until a "50 OLED drops below $2000

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post #3 of 69 Old 11-23-2012, 11:13 PM
 
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Pick a TV based on features, body style, and price point, not on what display tech it uses.

My primary displays have been plasma for seven years now, and I've loved all three of them. My monitors and bedroom displays have been LCD for about as long and they've all also been great. In the last round of picking my latest primary display, the 64" Samsung plasma won out over the 70" Sharp LCD simply due to the 3D functionality that I'll want available for my living room PC and future consoles, and $200 cheaper price.
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post #4 of 69 Old 11-24-2012, 11:08 PM
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I think most picture quality enthusiast would go with plasma.
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post #5 of 69 Old 11-25-2012, 07:57 AM
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I love my Samsung plasma. Bought it in 2009, used it for gaming from day 1 and never had a single issue with IR.
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post #6 of 69 Old 11-25-2012, 09:41 AM
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Plasmas for me.

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post #7 of 69 Old 11-25-2012, 04:19 PM
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it doesn't matter really when xbox can't do more than 60hz

either is fine, just turn off the auto motion smoothing soap opera effect on every tv for gaming.

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post #8 of 69 Old 11-25-2012, 07:07 PM
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Well the 60hz doesn't matter. Its the motion blur that LCD's can cause when gaming that you have to take into consideration.
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post #9 of 69 Old 11-25-2012, 07:15 PM
 
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"it doesn't matter really when xbox can't do more than 60hz"

This has no bearing on the conversation at hand.

"Its the motion blur that LCD's can cause when gaming that you have to take into consideration."

Both LCD and plasma have motion blur issues, and at about the same rate these days. LCD blur happens at the start of the frame change as the cells change their darkness level. This is usually slowest in smaller cell moves. Plasma blur happens at the end of a frame change as the phosphors decay in charge too slowly. This is usually most evident with green. 30hz judder is of much larger concern, and is also present in both technologies.
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post #10 of 69 Old 11-26-2012, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm even a bit more confused now eek.gif

My existing tv is a Panasonic 53" rear projection 1080i/480p from 2003ish. There is nothing wrong with my tv except for the fact that there are no HDMI connections, won't output/input 720p or 1080p and doesn't have the brightness of color that the newer plasmas/LEDs have. The tv is in my rec-room (basement), with only one small window and I use the tv for the following:
AT&T U-VERSE TV with HD connection via component 50%
XBOX360 gaming connection via component set at 1080i 40%
DvD, via Xbox360 10%

As you can see we do game a lot on this tv, almost as much as it's used to watch television programming on. At times, gaming sessions can last a couple hours...image retention is a MAJOR concern. I have read several posts about some people having the problem with a channels ID logo..really, are you serious! Panasonic, LG, Samsung...expects us to pay $1000-$3500 for a tv and the screen gets burn-in just by watching TV! Someone said, they had to run some kind of disk for like so many hours and then could only watch tv for limited amounts of time and had to vary the programming, they couldn't watch an entire show because the channels logo might damage the screen while it's being broken in, and that could be for like the first 200-800 hours...and he couldn't watch a movie that had black bars...I mean, WTF! $1000-$3500.

So, what do I do, keep my old TV and hope something comes along in the future that will work?
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post #11 of 69 Old 11-26-2012, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"it doesn't matter really when xbox can't do more than 60hz"
This has no bearing on the conversation at hand.
.

Yes it does because there is this preconceived notion that plasmas and their 600hz is somehow the best. If you can't output more than 60hz it doesn't matter. What matters the most is the input lag, but all tvs are so generally close now it doesn't matter if you get plasma or lcd. Typically plasma is for a darker room and led is for well lit room. Depends on your application, but neither are better and it's all in personal taste

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post #12 of 69 Old 11-26-2012, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99monguse View Post

I'm even a bit more confused now eek.gif
My existing tv is a Panasonic 53" rear projection 1080i/480p from 2003ish. There is nothing wrong with my tv except for the fact that there are no HDMI connections, won't output/input 720p or 1080p and doesn't have the brightness of color that the newer plasmas/LEDs have. The tv is in my rec-room (basement), with only one small window and I use the tv for the following:
AT&T U-VERSE TV with HD connection via component 50%
XBOX360 gaming connection via component set at 1080i 40%
DvD, via Xbox360 10%
As you can see we do game a lot on this tv, almost as much as it's used to watch television programming on. At times, gaming sessions can last a couple hours...image retention is a MAJOR concern. I have read several posts about some people having the problem with a channels ID logo..really, are you serious! Panasonic, LG, Samsung...expects us to pay $1000-$3500 for a tv and the screen gets burn-in just by watching TV! Someone said, they had to run some kind of disk for like so many hours and then could only watch tv for limited amounts of time and had to vary the programming, they couldn't watch an entire show because the channels logo might damage the screen while it's being broken in, and that could be for like the first 200-800 hours...and he couldn't watch a movie that had black bars...I mean, WTF! $1000-$3500.
So, what do I do, keep my old TV and hope something comes along in the future that will work?

Do you really think that you would have recommendations for plasmas from people here if IR was a problem?

I have gamed on a plasma since 2006 and have no burn in.

My recommendation is:

1. Buy a plasma
2. Calibrate it
3. Enjoy

Out of all of those steps, two is the most important.

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post #13 of 69 Old 11-26-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99monguse View Post

I want to replace my RPTV with a newer flatscreen but I am seeing that the 2011-2012 plasmas are having the image retention issues AGAIN mad.gif
I thought Panasonic got rid of the burn-in issues back in 2010 but apparently it's back...what are you guys using for your tvs...I will be wanting at least a 50" and 1080p.

I have a 2010 Panny S2 series Plasma and although I have never had burn-in, I have gotten NASTY and long term image retention from the bullet and score counters in the lower right on the Call of Duty games. For that reason alone I won't purchase another Plasma and don't recommend them to anyone that games.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere.

 

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post #14 of 69 Old 11-26-2012, 11:13 AM
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Just bought a 50-inch GT-50 from Panasonic. Can't beat the price right now at BB (under $1200 w/tax). These Panny lines are rated as some of the best TV's from this year (ST was rated best overall value).

I personally game on a 22-inch Asus Monitor, as the input lag is around 1-2 (while most TV's are in the 15-30 range).

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post #15 of 69 Old 11-27-2012, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99monguse View Post

I'm even a bit more confused now eek.gif
My existing tv is a Panasonic 53" rear projection 1080i/480p from 2003ish. There is nothing wrong with my tv except for the fact that there are no HDMI connections, won't output/input 720p or 1080p and doesn't have the brightness of color that the newer plasmas/LEDs have. The tv is in my rec-room (basement), with only one small window and I use the tv for the following:
AT&T U-VERSE TV with HD connection via component 50%
XBOX360 gaming connection via component set at 1080i 40%
DvD, via Xbox360 10%
As you can see we do game a lot on this tv, almost as much as it's used to watch television programming on. At times, gaming sessions can last a couple hours...image retention is a MAJOR concern. I have read several posts about some people having the problem with a channels ID logo..really, are you serious! Panasonic, LG, Samsung...expects us to pay $1000-$3500 for a tv and the screen gets burn-in just by watching TV! Someone said, they had to run some kind of disk for like so many hours and then could only watch tv for limited amounts of time and had to vary the programming, they couldn't watch an entire show because the channels logo might damage the screen while it's being broken in, and that could be for like the first 200-800 hours...and he couldn't watch a movie that had black bars...I mean, WTF! $1000-$3500.
So, what do I do, keep my old TV and hope something comes along in the future that will work?

If you ignore the technogaga being spewed and listen to what everybody else has said in the thread the choice is as clear as glass. Clearly, we all have Xbox 360s & Plasma tv's and love the combo enough to recommend it. I've played 1000's hours of Call of Duty on my Costco bought 50" Vizio 720p plasma for the past 8 years with no burn-in.

Plasma.

Plasma.

Plasma.

Do I need to say it again?

Plasma.

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post #16 of 69 Old 11-27-2012, 11:41 AM
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PS.

A decent 50" 1080p Plasma will run you about $600-700 bucks, especially with all these Black Friday deals going on. $700-800 should get a 55". And a $1000 should get you a 60" Plasma.

Hangout on Slickdeals.net for about 30mins and find something you like, make sure it has great reviews and walk away happen with an awesome price. Trust me, you will thank all of us later.

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post #17 of 69 Old 11-27-2012, 11:47 AM
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The 600Hz listed on plasmas is not the same measurement as the refresh rate of 60/120/240 you see on the others. You can't compare the two. This might be what darklordjames was referring to.

Also, as jblank insinuated, don't confuse image retention with burn-in. Burn-in is almost a non-factor nowadays. Image retention is temporary, and harmless.

But yes, overall for gaming, plasma is typically the way to go if you're using a full size television as your viewing choice.

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post #18 of 69 Old 11-27-2012, 11:57 AM
 
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Nope, he hadn't made any reference to 600hz at that point. He just made the "Xbox can't do more than 60hurtzes!!1" comment in a vacuum, which is obviously irrelevant to this discussion. The ill-informed 600hz garbage came later, which is irrelvant to every discussion.
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post #19 of 69 Old 11-27-2012, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threefiddie View Post

Yes it does because there is this preconceived notion that plasmas and their 600hz is somehow the best. If you can't output more than 60hz it doesn't matter. What matters the most is the input lag, but all tvs are so generally close now it doesn't matter if you get plasma or lcd. Typically plasma is for a darker room and led is for well lit room. Depends on your application, but neither are better and it's all in personal taste

Input lag is still a very real and viable concern. I have been monitoring both the plasma and lcd threads concerning what is the best TV for gaming for a long time now, and plasma is still generally considered better if input lag is a concern. Naturally there are a few exceptions, but overall plasma tends to not have as much input lag.

For this very reason, I am still gaming on my Sony KP57WS520 crt rear projection tv. While it cannot do 1080p, it still has a beautiful picture with absolute minimal input lag.
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post #20 of 69 Old 12-10-2012, 06:40 AM
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Plasmas:

- Generally suited to a darker room
- Motion resolution and clarity practically as good as that of a CRT TV (as opposed to LCD TV's, where there's motion blur, even on the most expensive models) *nothing that gets in the way of enjoying games/movies though*
- Image retention continues to be an issue, unless you go for the *break-in* period. However, this varies from model to model
- Higher emission, flicker can be detected in some cases, so there's generally more eye strain
- Consumes more power
- Resolution may not be as sharp as an LCD/LED TV, unless you get a very expensive model
- Superb black, greys and whites. Again, closer to CRT TV, and somewhat better than LCDs or LEDs.

LCD/LEDs

- Practically all LCD and LED screen are flicker free, so there's very little eye strain
- Great for gaming in a well lit or dark room
- If calibrated and set up right, can display very vivid and life like colors. Black/greys/whites almost as good as plasma screens
- Consumes very little power
- Generally live longer than plasma screens. No retention or burn-in issue whatsoever. Also, there's no *break in* period. You can use your screen on high backlight or high contrast settings from day 1
- Refresh rate enhancements can somewhat reduce the blur or choppiness you may feel in 24 fps movies or 30 fps games. But mostly, it can look unnatural, adds lag, and may lead to certain visual artifacts


That's about all I can think on top of my head. I'm no expert, so if I've made any incorrect statements, please point out. Also, OP.. there is no need to get expensive screens that boast a lot of refresh rate/motion enhancements (like Tru Motion or Motion Flow), as they do nothing to improve gaming experiences. The X360 is a 60 Hz console, so as long as your TV is 60 Hz, and has a response time of 10 ms or less, you're all set. Also hook it up to your console through HDMI only for the best experience, and keep all enhancements off. Set reference levels to expanded if your TV can handle those black levels, and color space to Auto.

So bottom line is this: if you don't mind the image retention issue, the flicker (some folks can't even detect it) and eye strain...but want maximum motion clarity and resolution...go with a plasma.

If you don't mind the blur, and it is by no means excessive.. and also want a perfectly stable image at 60 Hz with no flicker, get an LED/LCD screen.
Cheers and and happy gaming! Let us know what TV you're getting!
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post #21 of 69 Old 12-10-2012, 08:24 AM
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Depends on size:

65" or less panasonic plasma

70", 80", 90" sharp led

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post #22 of 69 Old 12-10-2012, 09:40 AM
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I game on a Panny 50G25 for the last two years and have had no issues with burn in...temporary IR when playing games with a HUD but that normally goes away after 5 minuted of watching regular TV.

My main reason for going with plasma is for input lag. On my old LCD I had about 35ms of lag (according to the thing you have to do for Rockband) and on my Panny I am down to about 13ms. It may not seem like a lot but I play FPS games a lot and the 1/3 cut in lag really does help.

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post #23 of 69 Old 12-11-2012, 10:21 AM
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Hmm. Interesting...

My LCD screen has a response time of 8 ms. I can't feel any lag whatsoever.. with or without enhancements.
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post #24 of 69 Old 03-21-2013, 08:41 AM
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I'm resurrecting this thread for what should be a simple question: Does the soap opera effect exist when playing games? It's been my impression that it's really a problem for film-based content and nothing else but I can't seem to find a real answer anywhere.

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post #25 of 69 Old 03-21-2013, 08:52 AM
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I'm resurrecting this thread for what should be a simple question: Does the soap opera effect exist when playing games? It's been my impression that it's really a problem for film-based content and nothing else but I can't seem to find a real answer anywhere.

Higher framerate is desired for playing games. Interpolated frames aren't quite as good, but don't cause the unnatural feel as filmed content converted to higher frame rate. But it also introduces a lot of lag, so much so to make most reflex-oriented games unplayable.

So it's recommended to turn off any processing used to simulate smoother motion when playing games, which turns off the soap opera effect.

Console gamers curious/interested in PC gaming?
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post #26 of 69 Old 03-21-2013, 09:02 AM
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Right, the thing you want is higher frames internally rendered by the game. 60fps of a game feels great, a 24fps movie with 36 interpolated frames a second looks fake and cheap. I haven't wanted Hobbit yet and I have no plans to.
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post #27 of 69 Old 03-21-2013, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbexperience View Post

I'm resurrecting this thread for what should be a simple question: Does the soap opera effect exist when playing games? It's been my impression that it's really a problem for film-based content and nothing else but I can't seem to find a real answer anywhere.

I've actually found it not too bad on certain games. Interpolation works really well with camera pans, which you find quite a bit of in games where you have camera control. It does add some lag (depends on the set) so its not great for games where that matters. It's not quite the same as true 60fps, but it can look considerably better than a juddery 30. Recently I thought it worked really well with journey and the walking dead.

Generally its less objectionable to gamers, because 60fps is something we'd all prefer if we could get it. It's how games were from the start, games generally didnt run at 30fps until the PS1 era, and its kind of been stuck there ever since. OTOH movies have always been 24fps, given how much bellyaching there was from purists about the hobbit in true 48fps, the objection to interpolation seems to be more about the smoothness itself than any shortcomings of the processing.

It still will look processed, a true 60fps is always better, but its worth a shot in the right game.

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post #28 of 69 Old 03-21-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I've actually found it not too bad on certain games. Interpolation works really well with camera pans, which you find quite a bit of in games where you have camera control. It does add some lag (depends on the set) so its not great for games where that matters. It's not quite the same as true 60fps, but it can look considerably better than a juddery 30. Recently I thought it worked really well with journey and the walking dead.

Generally its less objectionable to gamers, because 60fps is something we'd all prefer if we could get it. It's how games were from the start, games generally didnt run at 30fps until the PS1 era, and its kind of been stuck there ever since. OTOH movies have always been 24fps, given how much bellyaching there was from purists about the hobbit in true 48fps, the objection to interpolation seems to be more about the smoothness itself than any shortcomings of the processing.

It still will look processed, a true 60fps is always better, but its worth a shot in the right game.

Seems like something of a paradox. 30 fps games will look juddery without the image processing turned on, but turning the image processing on will result in more input lag and a 'processed'-looking image. So, I take it this is why people largely recommend plasmas for gaming?

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post #29 of 69 Old 03-21-2013, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bbexperience View Post

Seems like something of a paradox. 30 fps games will look juddery without the image processing turned on, but turning the image processing on will result in more input lag and a 'processed'-looking image. So, I take it this is why people largely recommend plasmas for gaming?

Plasmas can have interpolation too, for the same reasons LCDs do. Straight 30 fps will always be juddery on any tech because its just not a high enough frame rate for fast motion, especially without good motion blur.

Still though, I personally find 30fps games to look quite a bit better on plasma than LCD, not 100% sure why, but its a significant enough difference that I wouldnt consider buying anything but a plasma, especially for gaming. I think it has to do with how plasma technically isnt a persistent image but momentary flashes of light, but LCD pixels are always on. LCD makes motion look less natural....most LCDs can flicker the backlight to approximate the way plasma and CRT flicker, but its never as convincing as the real thing.

The ideal is for just everything to be 60fps, but unless you're on PC, you dont have a choice.

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post #30 of 69 Old 03-21-2013, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Plasmas can have interpolation too, for the same reasons LCDs do. Straight 30 fps will always be juddery on any tech because its just not a high enough frame rate for fast motion, especially without good motion blur.

Still though, I personally find 30fps games to look quite a bit better on plasma than LCD, not 100% sure why, but its a significant enough difference that I wouldnt consider buying anything but a plasma, especially for gaming. I think it has to do with how plasma technically isnt a persistent image but momentary flashes of light, but LCD pixels are always on. LCD makes motion look less natural....most LCDs can flicker the backlight to approximate the way plasma and CRT flicker, but its never as convincing as the real thing.

The ideal is for just everything to be 60fps, but unless you're on PC, you dont have a choice.

Interesting. Good information. Probably should have made a purchase a couple of months ago before everything was out of stock in anticipation of the new stuff. Now I'm waffling between a 55" LED and a 60" plasma and I CANNOT make a decision. tongue.gif

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