The Official Xbox One thread... - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/24/4363732/xbox-one-spot-checks-used-game-authentication

Simply popping in the game disc and installing it will reportedly establish lawful ownership as far as Microsoft's servers are concerned. When you install the game on your Xbox One, you'll be deauthenticating it on the previous owner's account, according to Polygon.

I'm reading this as each game disc has a unique code built in? confused.gif

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post #542 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:39 AM
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Polygon's sources say the authentication might possibly be waived for certain groups that might have extreme difficulty authenticating, like active military personnel.

I wonder how that's gonna work? Sounds like leaving the door just wide open enough for pirates.

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post #543 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post

I'm reading this as each game disc has a unique code built in? confused.gif

Programmable RFID chips would do the job just fine. Like I said earlier. Walmart uses them on a lot of clothing they sell for quick and easy inventory control.

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post #544 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Also, be prepared for tiered, data capped ISP pricing.

It's already starting, and with ideas like the XBone (and other content delivery systems), digital delivery, and 4K streaming; ISPs are smacking their lips at capping your service and forcing you to pay as you go. There's increases in profit margins to maintain and data is cheap to provide (relatively).

Sucks to be you consumer! What other choice do you have?

I am retiring from the Air Force and just got hired as a Tech II Engineer for Comcast. Since January 2013 Comcast suspended caps excluding the Tucson and Nashville test markets.


The One is no different than what it currently does now. Even in some cap areas who is hitting their caps? People downloading porn all day or maybe that person downloading all the games on Steam that average 25GB. My Suddenlink cap was 300gb and I Steam on my Gaming PC and my whole family is streaming and game online on a daily basis and don't come close hitting the cap. Now I have Comcast with no Cap

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post #545 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

What costs are you talking about?
Did what to you?

The cable companies typically try to charge you for every decryption device you have plugged in (leased cable box or CableCARD), plus lease fees for the equipment (my provider, Cox, wants $2/month/CableCARD and $8.50/month for an HD box, DVR or not; if you lease a DVR there's an additional $10/month DVR fee). If their basic cable is still unencrypted then you can connect as much equipment to your basic service as you want (the FCC allows them to encrypt basic now, though I believe they're required to provide a crappy basic-only box gratis if they do and it's requested; locally Cox basic still is unencrypted--my housemate plugs the TV in her room directly into the cable).

  1. The costs of Cable and DVR functionality embedded in XB1's COGS and expected XBLive pricing tiers. Even if you don't use it for that.
  2. Charge me a user $5.99/box fee for renting their H20 box...even though they were my own boxes at the time. I had bought them outright from a satellite company before I installed DirecTV. And all of the Cable/Sats do the exact same thing. Regardless of whether you use their box or not.
  3. Doesn't matter how you explain it...or slice it. Tyrant11 did a great job of 'splaining' that in the post right above yours. But the fact is consumers will be getting hit with multi whammies if XB1 forces such a costs on them. Right now, XBox 360 is a lot cheaper and more practical with WMC and HTPC for a similar purpose.
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post #546 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:51 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/542401/comcast-technology-topic/660

LOTS of similarities between xbone and comcast. I bet theres a huge deal with comcast and other providers. Also as someone mentioned comcast X1 service will be rolled out nationally this fall. Just keep skimming those posts in that link (starting at page 23 if it doesnt take you straight to it). My guess is it will be a cable box and the HDMI pass thru is for those that aren't "fortunate" enough to have the specific service provider they era partners with. The service providers benefit by subscription increases of people wanting ALL features of the Xbone. The similarities between Xbone and comcast X1 service are amazing right down to "the cloud".
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post #547 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:52 AM
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  1. The costs of Cable and DVR functionality embedded in XB1's COGS and expected XBLive pricing tiers. Even if you don't use it for that.

What's a COG?
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[*] Charge me a user $5.99/box fee for renting their H20 box...even though they were my own boxes at the time. I had bought them outright from a satellite company before I installed DirecTV. And all of the Cable/Sats do the exact same thing. Regardless of whether you use their box or not.

Not mine. I didn't get a box rental fee when I didn't have a box (just a CableCARD in my TiVo). I monitor my cable bill carefully and I'm certain of it.

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post #548 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:52 AM
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http://wiiudaily.com/2013/06/spike-e3-show-nintendo-microsoft/

Clickbait journalism from an obviously biased source, but they are actually concerned about the effect this has on Sony more so than Nintendo...

Article is about Microsoft paying Spike to skip Sony and Nintendo coverage for the E3 TV broadcast and is worth a read.

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post #549 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I wonder how that's gonna work? Sounds like leaving the door just wide open enough for pirates.
Easily enough, they'll verify who is active duty by sending authentication e-mails to the .mil domains in the same way they verify who is a student for special pricing.
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post #550 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Programmable RFID chips would do the job just fine. Like I said earlier. Walmart uses them on a lot of clothing they sell for quick and easy inventory control.

I would think printing a QR code on the disc itself would be cheaper, simpler and more reliable. Just hold it up to kinect.
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post #551 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

Easily enough, they'll verify who is active duty by sending authentication e-mails to the .mil domains in the same way they verify who is a student for special pricing.

But if anyone else gets that disc, they could copy it en masse. It would almost certainly require a spare Xbox that never goes online and a mod chip....but people will do that.

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post #552 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

Easily enough, they'll verify who is active duty by sending authentication e-mails to the .mil domains in the same way they verify who is a student for special pricing.

Exactly

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post #553 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:01 AM
 
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I am retiring from the Air Force and just got hired as a Tech II Engineer for Comcast. Since January 2013 Comcast suspended caps excluding the Tucson and Nashville test markets.


The One is no different than what it currently does now. Even in some cap areas who is hitting their caps? People downloading porn all day or maybe that person downloading all the games on Steam that average 25GB. My Suddenlink cap was 300gb and I Steam on my Gaming PC and my whole family is streaming and game online on a daily basis and don't come close hitting the cap. Now I have Comcast with no Cap

Good news there. Any idea why my console gaming is so crappy on Comcast? My pings and data rates seem fine,home network is streamlined, and picking and choosing (servers/players) on PC I don't see issues. But on consoles I always get very bad lag.

I've always assumed it's the P2P data being picked up and packet filtered as torrent data, and same with LIVE/PSN networks respectively. Comcast has been no help.
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post #554 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I would think printing a QR code on the disc itself would be cheaper, simpler and more reliable. Just hold it up to kinect.

Not that simple, both methods could be spoofed easily enough, but RFID would be much harder to spoof, and the One could write to the disc a ownership code for your account, it costs next to nothing to add and would do everything they need it to.

(Walmart uses them on a $3 pair of socks, using them on a $60 game is nothing)

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post #555 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

[Polygon's sources say the authentication might possibly be waived for certain groups that might have extreme difficulty authenticating, like active military personnel.

IE "The rest of the world"?

SA is a large new market, and China only recently opened up. Can't rely on always connected in those regions...
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post #556 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/24/4363732/xbox-one-spot-checks-used-game-authentication

Does the Xbox One actually require an internet connection? Will used game buyers or sellers have to pay an extra fee? Microsoft hasn't made it clear, but a report at Polygon now claims that the answers are "yes" and "no" respectively. According to the publication's sources, Xbox One games will phone home to Microsoft servers on a regular basis to verify that their users own the games. If you buy a used title, however, Polygon claims that you won't have to pay Microsoft for a fresh license to the game.

Simply popping in the game disc and installing it will reportedly establish lawful ownership as far as Microsoft's servers are concerned. When you install the game on your Xbox One, you'll be deauthenticating it on the previous owner's account, according to Polygon.

Despite Microsoft's recent attempts to walk back the discussion about the requirement for an internet connection and how the Xbox One will deal with used games, Polygon's report more or less fits with what Microsoft exec Phil Harrison already told reporters at the show. He suggested that the Xbox One would phone home once every 24 hours to make sure games were being played by their owners, and that friends could play a game for free as long as an authenticated owner was logged in with their account. Polygon's sources say the authentication might possibly be waived for certain groups that might have extreme difficulty authenticating, like active military personnel.

I understand this in principle. But it doesn't seem practical to me. BD2003 talked about this issue earlier in the thread. But my questions are:
  1. How would families with multiple consoles and Win8 devices workaround this operation function without deauthenticating the game in the base XB1 console itself?
  2. Could a software glitch in the game deauthenticate it, under normal gameplay circumstances?
  3. If a used game buyer deauthenticated the game in your XB1, would it create a data brick on your XB1 HDD? Meaning a dead game section that the XB1 OS can't read...and thus delete? And could it create a backdoor...hacker access/vulnerability to your XB1 HDD via the core server itself?

Just questions...because I sure don't have the answers to them.
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post #557 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Not that simple, both methods could be spoofed easily enough, but RFID would be much harder to spoof, and the One could write to the disc a ownership code for your account, it costs next to nothing to add and would do everything they need it to.

(Walmart uses them on a $3 pair of socks, using them on a $60 game is nothing)

I guess they could do it, but every form of RFID authentication I've seem to read about has been spoofed or decrypted super fast. Is there such a thing as unbroken RFID encryption?
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post #558 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

What's a COG?

Costs Of Goods Sold before all expenses, taxes and interests.
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post #559 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

I understand this in principle. But it doesn't seem practical to me. BD2003 talked about this issue earlier in the thread. But my questions are:
  1. How would families with multiple consoles and Win8 devices workaround this operation function without deauthenticating the game in the base XB1 console itself?
  2. Could a software glitch in the game deauthenticate it, under normal gameplay circumstances?
  3. If a used game buyer deauthenticated the game in your XB1, would it create a data brick on your XB1 HDD? Meaning a dead game section that the XB1 OS can't read...and thus delete? And could it create a backdoor...hacker access/vulnerability to your XB1 HDD via the core server itself?

Just questions...because I sure don't have the answers to them.

question 1 is perfectly valid. questions 2 and 3 are things I really doubt you have to worry about.
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post #560 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

I guess they could do it, but every form of RFID authentication I've seem to read about has been spoofed or decrypted super fast. Is there such a thing as unbroken RFID encryption?

It would do nothing to prevent piracy, but it would be perfect for what they want to use it for, to control used game sales. A simple scan could indicate you traded in the game at gamestop and remove your license server side.

Even if pirates crack it, what good does that do? The stuff needed to actually pirate games would be beyond most people. (It would not be software based, it would require custom hardware and software) and then you have the codes stored inside that would conflict with Microsoft's call home and making sure the disc and code is authentic.

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post #561 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Good news there. Any idea why my console gaming is so crappy on Comcast? My pings and data rates seem fine,home network is streamlined, and picking and choosing (servers/players) on PC I don't see issues. But on consoles I always get very bad lag.

I've always assumed it's the P2P data being picked up and packet filtered as torrent data, and same with LIVE/PSN networks respectively. Comcast has been no help.

Your in Boston and I am in Little Rock biggrin.gif. Each market is different. I have no issues when it comes to console gaming in my area. Is your router setup to where your consoles take precedence over everything else?

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post #562 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Not that simple, both methods could be spoofed easily enough, but RFID would be much harder to spoof, and the One could write to the disc a ownership code for your account, it costs next to nothing to add and would do everything they need it to.

(Walmart uses them on a $3 pair of socks, using them on a $60 game is nothing)

Spoofed how? I guess you'd have to find an unopened game, somehow surreptitiously get that plastic off, sneak a picture of the QR code, print an identical one out, stick it on a friend's copy of the game, then validate and install it?

That's quite a bit of work. With RFID you could potentially get the code through a box. Although I doubt a code would be valid unless it was actually purchased in either case.

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post #563 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

Your in Boston and I am in Little Rock biggrin.gif. Each market is different. I have no issues when it comes to console gaming in my area. Is your router setup to where your consoles take precedence over everything else?

Yup, ports open, priority set and locked down. Ahh well, the phantom lag persists apparently.
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post #564 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Spoofed how? I guess you'd have to find an unopened game, somehow surreptitiously get that plastic off, sneak a picture of the QR code, print an identical one out, stick it on a friend's copy of the game, then validate and install it?

That's quite a bit of work. With RFID you could potentially get the code through a box. Although I doubt a code would be valid unless it was actually purchased in either case.
QR codes would be unruly and not worth it. Having to use Kinect to verify is also a hassle. Making millions of unique codes per game is also a headache for validation.

Nintendo uses bar codes burned into each disc, which has yet to be cracked for playing burned games. Too bad they added usb support, otherwise the Wii would still be secure.

RFID codes can be spoofed, but server call backs would go pretty far in preventing piracy. And if it requires a specific ID chip to write your info to, then using a scanner at Gamestop wouldn't do much good.

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post #565 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:28 AM
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I think you guys are thinking to much about this authentication method. It doesn't need to be QR or RFID, just a serial number embedded in a line of code or on the disc itself that is read first as soon it is placed in a console. It reports this embedded number to MS servers and ties it to your XBL account. It the game had already been used before it de-authorizes the previous owners account at the same time. If the previous owner fires up the game again once he's been de-authorized, he'll be promoted to either insert the disc or buy the game again from XBL.

I hope that is how it will work because it would allow me to continue to use GameFly. It could also provide a new benefit to GameFly-ers, you could still play the game after you put it in the mail and until a new GameFly-er receives the disc and installs it. Same thing could happen at GameStop. Your used game could go unsold for months and you can still play it, unless GameStop will be required to insert the disc in a console to de-authorize your account.


Nothing against the military but, I'm not a fan of allowing some people to not have to authenticate. I just think everyone should have to play by the same rules.
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post #566 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Yup, ports open, priority set and locked down. Ahh well, the phantom lag persists apparently.
Couldn't tell ya'. I'm on Comcast 50mpbs in scenic Mobile, Alabama... which is hardly a mecca for technological innovation, yet the only time I have issues with gaming on my 360 is when it's something on the company's end (like Black Ops 2 and its constant issues).

Now, if we're talking videos on the dashboard of the 360... Those don't work right for anyone. Seriously, Microsoft... WTF? tongue.gif

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post #567 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post

I think you guys are thinking to much about this authentication method. It doesn't need to be QR or RFID, just a serial number embedded in a line of code on the disc that is read first as soon it is placed in a console. It reports this embedded number to MS servers and ties it to your XBL account. It the game had already been used before it de-authorizes the previous owners account at the same time. If the previous owner fires up the game again once he's been de-authorized, he'll be promoted to either insert the disc or buy the game again from XBL.

I hope that is how it will work because it would allow me to continue to use GameFly. It could also provide a new benefit to GameFly-ers, you could still play the game after you put it in the mail and until a new GameFly-er receives the disc and installs it. Same thing could happen at GameStop. Your used game could go unsold for months and you can still play it, unless GameStop will be required to insert the disc in a console to de-authorize your account.


Nothing against the military but, I'm not a fan of allowing some people to not have to authenticate. I just think everyone should have to play by the same rules.

Mass produced discs are all stamped from a common master disc. Customizing the code on each disc would be outrageously expensive.

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post #568 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Yup, ports open, priority set and locked down. Ahh well, the phantom lag persists apparently.

It is a weird situation you describe though. Your issue should be a universal situation instead of specific to two completely different devices. Besides NAT and MTU settings.

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post #569 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

I understand this in principle. But it doesn't seem practical to me. BD2003 talked about this issue earlier in the thread. But my questions are:
  1. How would families with multiple consoles and Win8 devices workaround this operation function without deauthenticating the game in the base XB1 console itself?
  2. Could a software glitch in the game deauthenticate it, under normal gameplay circumstances?
  3. If a used game buyer deauthenticated the game in your XB1, would it create a data brick on your XB1 HDD? Meaning a dead game section that the XB1 OS can't read...and thus delete? And could it create a backdoor...hacker access/vulnerability to your XB1 HDD via the core server itself?

Just questions...because I sure don't have the answers to them.
From what little they've said thus far, it sounds like MAYBE they're linking child accounts to a main account (kinda' like when they had family plans for Live). So for homes that have multiple consoles, as long as they're logged in on one of the child accounts, the game would work for them because the game is registered to the main account. Of course, that's just from what they've said, and considering the mixed messaging thus far, I hope they clarify the hell out of all of this on Monday.
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post #570 of 16901 Old 06-05-2013, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post

I think you guys are thinking to much about this authentication method. It doesn't need to be QR or RFID, just a serial number embedded in a line of code or on the disc itself that is read first as soon it is placed in a console. It reports this embedded number to MS servers and ties it to your XBL account. It the game had already been used before it de-authorizes the previous owners account at the same time. If the previous owner fires up the game again once he's been de-authorized, he'll be promoted to either insert the disc or buy the game again from XBL.

I hope that is how it will work because it would allow me to continue to use GameFly. It could also provide a new benefit to GameFly-ers, you could still play the game after you put it in the mail and until a new GameFly-er receives the disc and installs it. Same thing could happen at GameStop. Your used game could go unsold for months and you can still play it, unless GameStop will be required to insert the disc in a console to de-authorize your account.


Nothing against the military but, I'm not a fan of allowing some people to not have to authenticate. I just think everyone should have to play by the same rules.

As a military member I think it is just overblown. We are deployed in certain situations for many reasons and military members mind set is not can I get on PSN or Live or even playing a game for that matter. It isn't the only recreation in deployed locations Internet or not. Plus unless you are doing VPN which most are not, Netflix, Hulu or any US related services are not available. If the Xbox One can't play without Internet then oh well. Plenty of other stuff to do like going to the gym and taking college classes.

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