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post #631 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 03:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

The newer games can be coded to run under both the new and old VM. It's not trouble at all, they already have to profile the game for two platforms as it is. And if the x1-pro's exclusive partition has specs comparable to the PS4....the workload hasn't really changed.

I just don't see it as that easy. It also assumes all Devs will code to the metal all the time, and not the base platform. If things like turning down resolution, AA, and shaders don't get them to a place where the XBone could run them, then now you're talking totally separate assets for the same game.

It's a nice idea, but it'll never happen. The specs they launch with will be the specs that remain for the life of the generation.
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post #632 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

I just don't see it as that easy. It also assumes all Devs will code to the metal all the time, and not the base platform. If things like turning down resolution, AA, and shaders don't get them to a place where the XBone could run them, then now you're talking totally separate assets for the same game.

It's a nice idea, but it'll never happen. The specs they launch with will be the specs that remain for the life of the generation.

It's the same metal though, just a bigger chunk of it. As far as older games would be concerned, it wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The exclusive VM has no idea of the shared VMs existence, even in V1. It doesn't matter how big or small it is.

There are two scenarios:

1) No X2 comes out. Devs have to spec out a X1 version and PS4 version.

2) X2 comes out. Devs still have to spec out X1 and PS4 version. X2 is slightly higher in spec than PS4....so they just use the PS4 version of the spec for it. The work is already done. It's not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be.

What other reason could they possibly have for implementing this in a VM? They didn't need to do that in order to share resources between games and apps. It's because they want the platform to grow.

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post #633 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 03:50 PM
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Not to mention, on the flip side, it also opens the door wide open to an extremely inexpensive Xbox platform that can't play any games, just the shared partition. I bet the esram and all that jazz is completely dedicated to the games side. All it would need is a dual core jaguar with a fraction of the GPU, and 3GB of DDR to match the X1s performance....they could put that out for $199 (less without an optical drive) right now. That could easily be $99 in two years time.

Edit: getting the AMD kitties mixed up.

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post #634 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 03:55 PM
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http://www.gamespot.com/forza-motorsport-5/videos/forza-5-an-xbox-one-game-ten-years-in-the-making-6409324/
Confirmed: 1080p 60fps

Sorry for the broken link. Fixed

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post #635 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 04:22 PM
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yeah, I'd hold off on the interpretation of the "hard partitions" statement and those numbers you listed are pure speculation with no sources or science to back them up.
Actually, I think that's pretty much accepted as fact at this point. Enough sites have stated that this is the way the system resources are divided up that it's likely true. But I don't see that as such an awful thing... and I'll tell you why:

PS4 was originally supposed to only come with 4gb of ram. That's what they had told the developers. And realistically, if you look at the state of bleeding edge PC gaming, that's PLENTY, especially if you're stripping away all the general purpose crap that normally sits in memory for computer rather than console gaming. While it's impressive that Sony ponied up for the 8gb of ram, the question remains of how long it will take them to actually implement that much memory JUST FOR GAMES. Even if it's true that 7gb of that will be available to games vs. the 5gb for the Xbox One, what is the end result? Probably not much. Unlike PCs, both of these systems have hardware-specific compression for assets, meaning you're going to see realtime compression/decompression of textures and resources. You'll also get much more optimized code for the specific hardware over the PC space, where general purpose support for more hardware has to be taken into account. The reason I'm making this comparison is: For 1920x1080 resolution, the texture resources (which you would think would typically be what takes up memory) shouldn't be all that large, and we know this from existing PC games. Also, since you know what resolution you're targeting for the render, you don't have to include larger resolution textures and scale down, so again, less memory needed.

But ultimately, what will likely happen is the same thing that happened this generation: Even with one console being theoretically superior on a hardware level, the real-world differences will likely be nigh indistinguishable to the average gamer, short of someone like Richard Leadbetter of Digital Foundry analyzing the fidelity of each. What will probably differentiate the two for the average consumer (not us hardcore tech-spec-loving gamers) is the ecosystem itself... which we've seen with the popularity of Xbox Live. Or it will be on the comfort factor of the peripherals themselves (at least for me personally - I can't use the DualShock because I have big hands, whereas the 360 controller feels great to me, but it looks like Sony has done some work to address that so I can't wait to get hands-on with the new controllers). Either way, expect to see the same things we see now... first-party games looking amazing on their respective systems and cross-platform games being pretty damn similar (especially since most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p because of their seating distances, though us home theater nuts know better).

But hey, I could be crazy... I just think we'll know more from seeing the games than from all this spec analysis and nonsense.

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post #636 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Seems that at Neogaf "insider info" gets you either backed by the mods, or perma-banned if wrong. A vetted member that they seem to know has insider info confirmed the yield issues:
No word on the clock rumor, but lowering the clock would keep them on budget and on time. No technical info at E3 is troubling, as that be the place to drop the real specs. It be... unfortunate if MS pulled a WiiU and probably a implicit conformation of the yield issues.

Know what none of us really know? What MS's Critical Path for XBox One really is. Until they tell us what the real launch window is...none of this really matters. Because they may just let Sony launch first in November and...take all of the heat...deal with low performance versus forecast as everyone waits to see what final XB1 is about...and disrupt the Holiday market like hell with XB 360 Slim Monster sales. For example...$150 off 250GB XB360 Bundles and $29.99 or lower on all XB 360 games rxcept new releases. And then throw all of their juice behind the final repurposed XB1 in early 2014...after the smoke dust and turkey feathers have settled...and after all of the major issues have been debugged and cleared. I know this would suck for Devs who may be ready to go with XB1 titles. But better safe than sorry for MS at this point. This time around, it may serve them better to "Fire The Last Shot in Next Generation".
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post #637 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 04:50 PM
 
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That be the smart thing to do. Worked for Sony in the end, even if they didn't dominate like they planned. But, with the investment and their US market share on the line, can they afford to be second out the gate? (Will their investors and executives allow it?)

I know one thing, E3 is going to be pretty interesting this year. Lot of changes, lots of unknowns and questions, new generation.
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post #638 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

That be the smart thing to do. Worked for Sony in the end, even if they didn't dominate like they planned. But, with the investment and their US market share on the line, can they afford to be second out the gate? (Will their investors and executives allow it?)

I know one thing, E3 is going to be pretty interesting this year. Lot of changes, lots of unknowns and questions, new generation.

Wall Street will be extremely brutal if MS blows this on top of the Win8 relaunch (8.1)...and so/so Surface sales. Their investment community probably wishes they would take a wait and see approach with XBox One. Especially if they can disrupt Sony's launch with an agressive XBox 360 Holiday strategy. The financial community would view that as a plus since it would most likely drive MS' Q4 financials in a positive direction. And would strategically give them a 2014 launch window all to themselves on XB1...with time to disconnect the nightmarish PR time bomb & debug technical issues referenced in this thread and elsewhere.

The Strategic Partnership and development side could however confound MS' ability to to this. But again...we don't really know any of their critical Paths to launch yet. The canceled press briefing could easily been the result of deals & exclusives being adjusted/canceled/extended/etc based on revised timelines or worse. All parties involved need this launch to work and be successful. So better safe than sorry. Ballmer's future as head of MS could ride on this one. He better get it right.
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post #639 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 06:17 PM
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Except a delayed launch would give the PS4 the holidays to start solidifying an install base. No console ever wants to be last to market.
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post #640 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 06:23 PM
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Except a delayed launch would give the PS4 the holidays to start solidifying an install base. No console ever wants to be last to market.

But MS would be in a good position to flood the market with inexpensive 360 units. Because in the end, if they rush to get the XBOne out, it can come back to bite them in the butt later on.

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post #641 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 06:55 PM
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But MS would be in a good position to flood the market with inexpensive 360 units. Because in the end, if they rush to get the XBOne out, it can come back to bite them in the butt later on.

Who will buy the cheap consoles? non-serious gamers that would not buy into a product launch anyway. Early adopters have owned the current gen for too many years and they will bite on the PS4 if there is no Xbone to buy. They may even pick up a deeply discounted 360 as a backup for BC. I am thinking about picking up a few $99 units to set up a 3 screen racing rig for Forza. Not something I am passionate about but it would be fun to do and it will be compatible with my pricey Fanatec wheel.
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post #642 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

alright, we need to adjust the math here. 1.2 is not 50% of 1.8. you keep thinking 1.2 is 50% of 1.8 for some reason. 0.9 is 50% of 1.8.

1.8 - 1.2=.6
.6 is 50% of 1.2.
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post #643 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 07:04 PM
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Actually, I think that's pretty much accepted as fact at this point. Enough sites have stated that this is the way the system resources are divided up that it's likely true. But I don't see that as such an awful thing... and I'll tell you why:

the whole concept of a "hard partition" of system resources has not been established by any sources as far as I know. I would love to read a link from any source stating such a "hard partition," especially a link with the aforementioned numbers. You won't find it because these numbers are just numbers people decided to throw around.

I'm all for finding facts. right now, real facts are hard to find outside of the established documentation and people are trying to fill in the details with rumors and ill-conceived conjecture. a lot of things will get cleared up by release time and when release time occurs, we'll know the true numbers of everything.
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post #644 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 07:05 PM
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Yeah the 50% doesn't go both ways.

PS4 is 50% more powerful than X1.

X1 is 33% less powerful than PS4. (Doesn't sound so bad when you put it that way, huh?)

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post #645 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 07:09 PM
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The dealt with the RROD with the 360 launch and it is still the top console in the US. There's no way they let Sony have the Holiday season alone.

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post #646 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 07:12 PM
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Except a delayed launch would give the PS4 the holidays to start solidifying an install base. No console ever wants to be last to market.

I think it would actually be reversed. Sony would be scared s...less if MS had the stones to do that. Because they would only be solidifying their own 'early adopter' install base. And I suspect that is a small market relative to a hot selling XBox 360 package for the masses. That and Nintendo could dilute the impact of a standalone PS4 launch. Especially if it has all or most of the same restrictions everyone is blaming MS for. XB1 early adopters will wait it out until it is fully revealed as long as XB1 doesn't trail PS4 by too much.

No company ever wants to launch a new console into a hostile market...in full bore crisis management mode either. There are significant advantages to being the counter puncher this time around...versus the company throwing massive left and right hooks into shrinking holiday consumer wallets.
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post #647 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 07:18 PM
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Sony can have a $199-$149 PS3 this fall if Nvidia would stop being... unpleasant about the RSX 28nm die shrink. Maybe even match that $99 price if they remove the HDD and bring the flash only model to the US.

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post #648 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

the whole concept of a "hard partition" of system resources has not been established by any sources as far as I know. I would love to read a link from any source stating such a "hard partition," especially a link with the aforementioned numbers. You won't find it because these numbers are just numbers people decided to throw around.

I'm all for finding facts. right now, real facts are hard to find outside of the established documentation and people are trying to fill in the details with rumors and ill-conceived conjecture. a lot of things will get cleared up by release time and when release time occurs, we'll know the true numbers of everything.

The original source appears to be the in depth wired article, not speculation, but based directly from MS's words themselves. They seemed to have more access than anyone else. Hard partitioned isn't a word that just sneaks in, so I assume it was specifically mentioned. I haven't watched the architecture label, I suspect it was probably mentioned there as well.

The first time I heard "three OSes", I assumed it was more marketing nonsense, just trying to make it sound better to people who think three is automatically better than one. I'm starting to come around to the genius of the approach though.

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post #649 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 07:35 PM
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Except you just sold all your casual market a new console. Why would they turn around and buy a new one 6 months or a year later?
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post #650 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 07:45 PM
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I think it would actually be reversed. Sony would be scared s...less if MS had the stones to do that. Because they would only be solidifying their own 'early adopter' install base. And I suspect that is a small market relative to a hot selling XBox 360 package for the masses. That and Nintendo could dilute the impact of a standalone PS4 launch. Especially if it has all or most of the same restrictions everyone is blaming MS for. XB1 early adopters will wait it out until it is fully revealed as long as XB1 doesn't trail PS4 by too much.

No company ever wants to launch a new console into a hostile market...in full bore crisis management mode either. There are significant advantages to being the counter puncher this time around...versus the company throwing massive left and right hooks into shrinking holiday consumer wallets.

PS2 being sold for cheap didn't stop Xbox 360 sales, who doesn't own a console of this generation yet isn't even a target to get a next gen anytime soon. Sony had a very tough uphill battle to catchup with the Xbox 360, I very much doubt MS will be able to do what Sony did without their exclusives.


As for the whole recent MS GPU issues, talks about down clocking an already inferior GPU compared to the PS4 is just SAD.

What will this Xbone offer Gamers?

- Lack of exclusives
- Inferior multi platform games
- Forcing people to pay to play their games online via Live
- DRM/Used game restriction crap

GG M$.

You know what's missing on top of that? A rushed console with higher failure rate than the Xbox 360's RROD lol

Seriously though, they better have some exclusives that will blow people away because this isn't looking good, AT ALL.
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post #651 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 08:09 PM
 
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Yeah the 50% doesn't go both ways.

PS4 is 50% more powerful than X1.

X1 is 33% less powerful than PS4. (Doesn't sound so bad when you put it that way, huh?)

If the underclock is true, the lower bound is officially 50% wink.gif

Can't wait for Sony to slip in, at the end of E3, their same DRM scheme. The internet will go Apocalyptic...
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post #652 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 08:20 PM
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So we have a Xbone that is only 4x the 360 after 8 long years... May as well just keep using the 360 as the target platform and just scale the games up for the Wii U, One and PS4, leaving high end PC ports to be PS4 exclusive. (Like the Witcher 3 is looking to be)

Imagine if this headline spread across the net.

Xbox One Only Twice As Strong As Wii U

Even if it is stretching the truth (high end Wii U GPU estimate) it would be terrible for their image, and it wouldn't be an outright lie. (The clock drop would put it at almost 1 terrflop even, top end Wii U estimate is 550 gigaflops) Microsoft would have a ****storm bigger than the used game disaster on their hands.

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post #653 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 08:20 PM
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If the underclock is true, the lower bound is officially 50% wink.gif

Can't wait for Sony to slip in, at the end of E3, their same DRM scheme. The internet will go Apocalyptic...

Dont forget to add the potentially as high as 15-25% CPU/GPU drop if they're hard partitioning APU resources between the two OSes. And then any inefficiency imposed if devs cant get as close to the hardware as they can on the PS4.

If they're doing what I suspect though, I really think this is going to work out well for them long term. It would be a total paradigm shift , but those first few years.....its gonna be pretty rough.

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post #654 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 08:25 PM
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So if the Xbox One is being downgraded like this, what happens to all the games that are supposed to be launch games ? Will the games run like they would have ? Will the frame rates be all messed up ? Seems very late in the game for them having to make a drastic change like this. We are already in the month of June.
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post #655 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 08:26 PM
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So we have a Xbone that is only 4x the 360 after 8 long years... May as well just keep using the 360 as the target platform and just scale the games up for the Wii U, One and PS4, leaving high end PC ports to be PS4 exclusive. (Like the Witcher 3 is looking to be)

Imagine if this headline spread across the net.

Xbox One Only Twice As Strong As Wii U

Even if it is stretching the truth (high end Wii U GPU estimate) it would be terrible for their image, and it wouldn't be an outright lie. (The clock drop would put it at almost 1 terrflop even, top end Wii U estimate is 550 gigaflops) Microsoft would have a ****storm bigger than the used game disaster on their hands.

I admire your steadfast determination in trying to bring the Wii U up to the same level as the real next gen. smile.gif

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post #656 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 08:30 PM
 
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If they're doing what I suspect though, I really think this is going to work out well for them long term. It would be a total paradigm shift , but those first few years.....its gonna be pretty rough.

I think if they're going with what you're thinking, they'd have to be the fastest "console" to $99 in history. They'd also pretty much give up on the core gamer as their base that drives adoption.

They want to make this a Roku GoogleTV iPhone, but I don't think just wanting to do that works that way. Not for MS, and not when you're playing catchup.

You need to be first to the market and innovative. The right time was back when the original XBox launched to penetrate into livingrooms. Can't do it on a $399+ box.
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post #657 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 08:31 PM
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So if the Xbox One is being downgraded like this, what happens to all the games that are supposed to be launch games ? Will the games run like they would have ? Will the frame rates be all messed up ? Seems very late in the game for them having to make a drastic change like this. We are already in the month of June.

If it's true, they'll have more than enough time to adapt to the change. Even the rumor isnt exactly clear on what the issue is - if its purely the esram, it might have a separate clock. Turning the dial down slightly on the esram doesnt necessarily mean the whole APU has to clock down with it. The CPU and GPU units can all run at independent speed, no one has enough information to know exactly what the esram clock is bound to....its not really anything to get concerned about yet. It needs all the help it can get, but a minor reduction in memory speed isnt the end of the world.

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post #658 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I admire your steadfast determination in trying to bring the Wii U up to the same level as the real next gen. smile.gif

At this point it is looking more like Microsoft is trying to bring the One down to the Wii U's level... tongue.gif

I am almost tempted to submit the idea and all the sources to Kotaku and watch them run with it...

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post #659 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 08:37 PM
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The WiiU only has 2GB of memory with 12.8 GB/s of bandwidth. The XBOne would have to drop pretty far in specs to come anywhere near the WiiU.

Besides this is all rumors. I would like to hear the official specs, release date, price etc. There is really too much conjecture to even make an informed decision about it.

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post #660 of 17060 Old 06-05-2013, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

The WiiU only has 2GB of memory with 12.8 GB/s of bandwidth. The XBOne would have to drop pretty far in specs to come anywhere near the WiiU.

The Wii U's memory setup is quite different from any other console, it is incredibly cache heavy, even that number can't be used in comparisons. The Wii U also has 32mb of edram, which helps in the same way that the One's 32mb of esram does.

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