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post #7111 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 09:24 AM
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Yea, the use the facial recognition/scanning makes the system much more interesting.

On Youtube there is a video from Gamescom and Project Spark where you can now also use Kinect to record motions for NPC characters in the games your create.

I would link it here but my job blocks youtube and many other sites.

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post #7112 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

They've already confirmed that face scanning is part of the tools they've provided to developers, but no word on whether any game is using it yet. Rivals uses it in a more cartoony way, but they were saying you could 3-D map your face with full RGB, similar to how Rainbow Six: Vegas let you do it with the Live Vision Cam, but with your actual facial geometry. I'm hoping when we eventually hear about a new R6 game, that's part of the feature set. It was very cool to play that game when you could just tell who your friends were by their faces. Plus, I had one friend paint his face like The Crow and another wear a Michael Myers mask, and it looked very cool in-game. tongue.gif

R6 Patriots is already confirmed for Ps4. Gotta assume XB1 is coming as well. This one fell off the radar a while ago, maybe they decided to completely re-tool it for next gen? Hard to image they'd pass on the exisitng installed base though, I can see this one getting farmed out to at least 2 different Ubi development teams...

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post #7113 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I want to see this Project Spark type animation recording put to use in sports games. Right off hand, just think of making your own taunts and ring entrances in WWE 2k whatever. I don't know how well it would work for something like making your own shooting and dribbling animations for baketball or jukes for football (because of the gameplay consequences), but it sure would be fun to toy around with.

In short, bring on kinect innovation!

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post #7114 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 09:46 AM
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I just don't understand why it took this long for them to show something unique that kinect 2 and only kinect 2 can do. This should have been on the main stage at e3.
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post #7115 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I just don't understand why it took this long for them to show something unique that kinect 2 and only kinect 2 can do. This should have been on the main stage at e3.

I'd guess that has alot to do with the fact that they werent happy with the results just yet.

It would have been much much better to announce at the beginning though. My wife even finds the facial scanning to be really cool and as we were talking I told her I was really shocked as up until that point I didnt really have any intention of getting one of the new consoles either. But the facial scanning is something that I find truely interesting.

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post #7116 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slyderulz View Post

R6 Patriots is already confirmed for Ps4. Gotta assume XB1 is coming as well. This one fell off the radar a while ago, maybe they decided to completely re-tool it for next gen? Hard to image they'd pass on the exisitng installed base though, I can see this one getting farmed out to at least 2 different Ubi development teams...
The original team that was working on Patriots got the boot and they started over from scratch... and now it's not in active development for any platform. They have confirmed that it will come to PS4 and Xbox One when they get time to focus on it. It's going to be a while before we see a new R6 game, sadly.

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post #7117 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 10:22 AM
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Speaking of the new Kinect, I wonder how controller pairing is going to work if Kinect is disabled. What I've heard is that you press a button on the controller so that it beams an IR signal to the Kinect that causes the controller to be paired. Have they changed something about that now? Or do they expect people to enable the Kinect every time they want to connect a new controller?

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post #7118 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

They've already confirmed that face scanning is part of the tools they've provided to developers, but no word on whether any game is using it yet. Rivals uses it in a more cartoony way, but they were saying you could 3-D map your face with full RGB, similar to how Rainbow Six: Vegas let you do it with the Live Vision Cam, but with your actual facial geometry. I'm hoping when we eventually hear about a new R6 game, that's part of the feature set. It was very cool to play that game when you could just tell who your friends were by their faces. Plus, I had one friend paint his face like The Crow and another wear a Michael Myers mask, and it looked very cool in-game. tongue.gif
I was just thinking about how Vegas used it, it would be sweet to have it and use your actual face on most multiplayer games.

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post #7119 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

The original team that was working on Patriots got the boot and they started over from scratch... and now it's not in active development for any platform. They have confirmed that it will come to PS4 and Xbox One when they get time to focus on it. It's going to be a while before we see a new R6 game, sadly.

i just hope they drop the whole shooting civilians things and similar..
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post #7120 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post

Speaking of the new Kinect, I wonder how controller pairing is going to work if Kinect is disabled. What I've heard is that you press a button on the controller so that it beams an IR signal to the Kinect that causes the controller to be paired. Have they changed something about that now? Or do they expect people to enable the Kinect every time they want to connect a new controller?

I think first time pairing is still through the button on the left side of the console. That's something unavoidable like pairing a Bluetooth headset for the first time.

Once it's paired, then the Kinect pairing to the individual comes into play. And that will still probably require a first-time identification system similar to Kinect ID on the 360. And after that, you correlate the Kinect ID to the controller. Otherwise, it will pair the controller to a guest account.

The guest account thing is huge because it was a problem with the first Kinect getting strangers to pop into a game. The gamer switching was fine for gamertags already on the console with proper Kinect IDs. But invite guests over to play the party games karaoke or dance central, and it sometimes it became a mess depending on how the game itself was programmed. Now, guest accounts are at the system level rather than the game level.
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post #7121 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 11:42 AM
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From what I understand with the remotes the only thing that you miss out on without the Kinect is the ability to hand someone the controller and it automatically changes profiles, etc.

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post #7122 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 12:19 PM
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Anyone else concerned over the "retiring" of Ballmer and the exit of Mattrick to Zinga. Is there something they know about Xbox one and we don't or am I looking too much into it?
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post #7123 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Oooooh, I want this ONE:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/26/white-xbox-one/

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post #7124 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd_us View Post

Anyone else concerned over the "retiring" of Ballmer and the exit of Mattrick to Zinga. Is there something they know about Xbox one and we don't or am I looking too much into it?

Mattrick was bypassed during the corporate reshuffling of the divisions and left. He saw the writing on the wall. I think if Mattrick knew that Ballmer was retiring, he would've stuck around and saw whether the new CEO would move Mattrick up the corporate ladder.
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post #7125 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 12:56 PM
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Oooooh, I want this ONE:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/26/white-xbox-one/

it should've been all white, not the black panels. and certainly not a black kinect.

it looks very apple-esque in white...
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post #7126 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

it should've been all white, not the black panels. and certainly not a black kinect.

it looks very apple-esque in white...

The black accents is what makes it look nice IMO, and a black Kinect matches the TV
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post #7127 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 02:45 PM
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I think first time pairing is still through the button on the left side of the console. That's something unavoidable like pairing a Bluetooth headset for the first time.

Ah, I didn't realize they already had a button on the console as a fallback. I was just going by this and similar more detailed reports that I admittedly can't find at the moment:
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Seamless Connectivity – Each controller uses a combination of invisible reflective technology and LEDs to send a patterned infrared signal to your console and Kinect sensor. Not only does this make pairing the devices seamless

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/xbox-one-controller-feature

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post #7128 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 03:26 PM
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Don't think this has been posted, but it's notable (and potentially pretty huge). Hot Chips 25 conference was today and Microsoft showed off the architecture of the Xbox One. In the second slide shown here, you can see the 8gb of DRAM... but look at the Southbridge. Is that 8gb of flash RAM? One has to wonder if they're using that for the suspend/resume, basically treating it like a SSD in a PC. It's interesting, because I don't think they have ever said anything about having that.

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post #7129 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 03:38 PM
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That is huge.

It seems to be connected to an emmc 4.5 controller, and a quick google search comes up with this.
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e•MMC v4.5 offers performance enhancement features, including an interface bandwidth increase from 104 Mbyte/sec to 200 MByte/sec.

That's pushing modern SSD speeds.

This is something I've been really hoping for. If it is what it looks like it is, it's going to help dramatically with load times and game switching. It's basically the missing part of the puzzle needed to explain how they swapped between two full games so quickly - a large portion of the other game was held in the flash. There should be some room left over to use as cache as well. If managed properly it basically means SSD-like load speeds for games. And since its flash, it's persistent across cold boots. It's not really necessary for the suspend/resume though, and that case it just stays in system memory (as long as its powered).

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post #7130 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 03:44 PM
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This is something I've been really hoping for. If it is what it looks like it is, it's going to help dramatically with load times and game switching. It's basically the missing part of the puzzle needed to explain how they swapped between two full games so quickly - a large portion of the other game was held in the flash. There should be some room left over to use as cache as well. If managed properly it basically means SSD-like load speeds for games. And since its flash, it's persistent across cold boots. It's not really necessary for the suspend/resume though, and that case it just stays in system memory (as long as its powered).
Exactly! I'm stunned that the gaming media haven't caught that yet, but maybe they're waiting for clarification. Even if they're just using it for systemic cache, that's a pretty big deal.

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post #7131 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 03:52 PM
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Exactly! I'm stunned that the gaming media haven't caught that yet, but maybe they're waiting for clarification. Even if they're just using it for systemic cache, that's a pretty big deal.

For whatever reason, Microsoft didn't seem to actually mention it, they just showed the pic. The only gaming site I'd even expect to notice that is eurogamer though. Whatever some members feel about their supposed bias, they're the only mainstream gaming site that has *any* technical understanding, so I'm not at all surprised its gone unnoticed.

So there's still plenty of unanswered questions...how fast is the flash itself? How is it implemented? Do devs have direct access to store/preload game assets, or is it just a dumb cache?

I've always said the HDD is going to be the biggest bottleneck with these consoles, and that they really need some cache in there, like a hybrid drive. If it can be managed by the dev its almost as good as having a full blown SSD in there. I'm sure you can dig up some quote of mine from months/years ago where I said they really needed this...I'm shocked the PS4 doesn't have it as well. Unless it does and they didn't think it was important enough to mention it either?

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post #7132 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 03:52 PM
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... but look at the Southbridge. Is that 8gb of flash RAM? One has to wonder if they're using that for the suspend/resume, basically treating it like a SSD in a PC. It's interesting, because I don't think they have ever said anything about having that.
Don't know much about computer architecture but if in fact there's 8 GB of "hidden" RAM in the One, for whatever purpose, it's hilarious (and consistent with their other marketing missteps) that they've failed to mention it to date. In the game of spec-oneupsmanship being able to tout twice the RAM of your competitor is impressive. Can't wait to find out what it's for.

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post #7133 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 04:01 PM
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Don't know much about computer architecture but if in fact there's 8 GB of "hidden" RAM in the One, for whatever purpose, it's hilarious (and consistent with their other marketing missteps) that they've failed to mention it to date. In the game of spec-oneupsmanship being able to tout twice the RAM of your competitor is impressive. Can't wait to find out what it's for.

jeff

It's definitely not extra ram, I can tell you that for sure. But it can be used to utilize the ram it has much more effectively than with just the HDD alone. Of course it all depends on the specifics, of which we currently know absolutely nothing.

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post #7134 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 04:18 PM
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Maybe this has a little bit to do with the decision to make the HDD un-swappable?

really interesting news though regardless....

It doesnt suprise me thought that MS has not mentioned anything about it. It seems to me like many of the game magazines etc. dont know much else other than "Oh, that games pretty" and "This game runs smoother" "This game rocks"

Not much hardware understanding for the most part when you are looking at console hardware.

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post #7135 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 04:40 PM
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Maybe this has a little bit to do with the decision to make the HDD un-swappable?

A small chance. Based on the diagram it looks like a separate module, not a chip on the HDD PCB like you'd find in a hybrid drive. So you should be able to swap HDDs without affecting it. But it COULD be just a modified standard hybrid drive like a seagate momentus XT, with a direct line to the flash instead of just letting the drive's firmware manage it. Making it un-swappable in that case would be justifiable....but I seriously doubt that's the case.

It does take a lot of the sting out of not being able to swap it though. You wouldn't really gain much from an SSD with something like this built in...a little bit of flash goes a very long way when used properly. Storing everything on an SSD for a game console really is pointless and wasteful when a small cache like this can achieve the same effect, but that's entirely up to how well it's implemented. Devs need direct access to it to see its full potential.

But of course don't get too excited until we know for sure what they're using it for. It could end up being cheap, slow flash used for little more than storing apps.

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post #7136 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 05:43 PM
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more questions added to IGN's Ask Microsoft Anything:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/05/ask-microsoft-anything-about-xbox-one

Will I be able to get pre-order bonuses and special edition versions on digitally downloaded games?

WHITTEN: Yes! You’ll see more details here in the future.

Will Xbox One have any TV DVR functionality? Or is the DVR just for games?

WHITTEN: It’s easy to use your current DVR with Xbox One. Our focus is on making the TV experience great – with favorite channels, voice control (including play, pause, fast forward and rewind with your DVR) and more. This is an area where you’ll see us drive more innovation over the years to come.
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post #7137 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 05:54 PM
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Just to give the less technically inclined some idea of how big of a deal this could be: 

 

 

A decent USB Stick (to stand in for the 8GB flash, which is almost certainly much faster than this). Sequential read speeds would be in the 50-100mb/sec+ range.

 

 

 

 

 

Hard Drive (WD Green, not the fastest, but prob slightly better performance than whats in the X1) - seq reads about 75mb/sec.

 

 

 

Look at the average random read speeds in the right-most column.  This should give you some idea of how terrible hard drives are at random access. A cheap $15 USB flash stick is more than an order of magnitude faster at small random reads. That would hold even for a 10K RPM raptor. HDDs are SO TERRIBLE at random access, that even the fastest ones ever made are smoked by the cheapest USB sticks you can buy. 

 

There's an easy way to make up for it...use some flash in tandem with the HDD.  Let's look at a few scenarios with and without a bit of flash:

 

Loading a level:

Without flash, the HDD is forced to do all the random reads it's terrible at, which also prevents it from doing the long sequential reads that it excels at.

 

HDD alone - Total throughput ~20-40mb/sec...and that's probably optimistic.

 

With flash, since a dev would know what level is coming up next, they can preload assets  onto the flash that would otherwise force the HDD to randomly read VERY slowly. This frees up the hard drive to do what it does best - sequential reads. Both are now working as efficiently as possible, and since you've got two devices, both can read into memory at the same time.

 

Flash at ~50MB/sec + HDD at ~75mb/sec = Total throughput ~125mb/sec

 

It's a night and day difference.

 

 

Swapping from one game to another:

Let's assume that a game can store another 2GB of data somewhere in a suspended state, to get it back up and running in case you want to swap.

 

Without flash:

As one game closes, it begins to write out that 2GB suspend state onto the HDD. In order for this to happen quickly, the HDD needs to do this 100% sequentially until it's done, so it can't do anything else at the same time. Only when it's finished can the new game begin to load. No matter how much memory you have, the HDD can only do one thing at a time effectively.  It's going to take some time.

 

With flash:

As one game closes, it can start to write the 2GB suspend state directly to flash. At the same time, it's reading in the new game from the HDD. This is a huge speed increase. Better yet, if there are parts of the new game already stored in the flash from a previous session, it can read that in simultaneously as well - unlike a HDD, flash has no problem doing two things at once, and it would again allow the HDD to do the sequential reads it's best at. Everything happens at the same time, as efficiently as possible, and its ridiculously faster than the HDD only scenario.

 

 

Obviously the actual numbers are going to change depending on the game, the speed of all the drives, and a multitude of other factors. But in every case, having that flash buffer there is a HUGE benefit.

 

 

Just for reference, this is what a good SSD can do:

 

 

 

As you can see, it destroys them with ease on paper.  But in my own PC, I have both an SSD, and a HDD that's accelerated by a second SSD (intel smart response).  When it comes to real world game load times, there's hardly any difference at all between pure SSD and hybrid, but pure HDD is much, much slower. And a hybrid SSD/HDD is pretty dumb - it only has in cache what's been recently read/written, so the initial load isnt any faster than just HDD. A console dev could manage the cache themselves so it'd have only exactly what it needed ahead of time, and overall performance is maximized from the start.

 

So yeah, it's a really big deal. It will be unfortunate for X1 owners if the PS4 doesnt have something similar though. There needs to be parity for 3rd party devs to use this correctly, otherwise they'll have to design the games to work with a HDD only scenario. Similar to how the DVD only 360 held back all games, even though every PS3 had a HDD. 

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post #7138 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 06:24 PM
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right now, there's too many unknowns with this 8GB of flash in terms of what kind, what speed, and its usage.

Personally, I don't know much about the SSHD drives. I read the benchmarks and I had enough money that I just went with SSD. But if that 8GB is used as a hybrid SSHD, it's not up to the software developer to "manage" it. It's completely done at the hardware level and is transparent to the developer.

and this would make sense. You didn't have to install anything special in order to use an SSHD. To Windows, it's a normal drive.

In fact, according to this, it's all done within the microcode of the SSHD and outside the OS level:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2025402/ssds-vs-hard-drives-vs-hybrids-which-storage-tech-is-right-for-you-.html

And because the cache volume is essentially hidden from the OS, users aren’t required to cherry-pick the data to store on the SSD to prevent it from filling up.
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post #7139 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

right now, there's too many unknowns with this 8GB of flash in terms of what kind, what speed, and its usage.

Personally, I don't know much about the SSHD drives. I read the benchmarks and I had enough money that I just went with SSD. But if that 8GB is used as a hybrid SSHD, it's not up to the software developer to "manage" it. It's completely done at the hardware level and is transparent to the developer.

and this would make sense. You didn't have to install anything special in order to use an SSHD. To Windows, it's a normal drive.

In fact, according to this, it's all done within the microcode of the SSHD and outside the OS level:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2025402/ssds-vs-hard-drives-vs-hybrids-which-storage-tech-is-right-for-you-.html

And because the cache volume is essentially hidden from the OS, users aren’t required to cherry-pick the data to store on the SSD to prevent it from filling up.

 

Yep. It puts into the cache things that are frequently read (like your boot sequence or parts of a game you play all the time), and things that were recently read/written (like a recent game install). It will even emphasize caching small blocks that are randomly read, so its as efficient as possible. It works really, really well most of the time, I even use one in my PS3. All the magic happens in the drive itself, the PS3 has no idea its a hybrid drive. If that's all they plan to do with this, it's still a huge improvement.

 

What it won't help with is launching an already installed game that you havent played in a while, or loading the next level...there's no way for the drive to know what files are needed next, only the game does. That's where some intervention from the game dev can make a huge difference. They can preemptively load the assets for the next level into the cache. For something like skyrim where you can go into a town and potentially go into any of five buildings, they can preload all five options ahead of time into the cache...letting the game dev take control can ensure that every single load is accelerated, and at that point, its basically as good as SSD.

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post #7140 of 17868 Old 08-26-2013, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RemoWilliams84 View Post

Oooooh, I want this ONE:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/26/white-xbox-one/

The best I have ever received for a launch is a jacket...mad.gif
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