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post #7381 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by RexHarrison View Post

Drenching the room in IR might cause some issues. Ex. If all of your devices are Sony, you're going to be turning things on that you don't necessarily want on. Or if you have a TV of the same brand in the kitchen, that will turn on also.
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Originally Posted by RemoWilliams84 View Post

I'm confused. So all Sony devices respond to one remote? So if I had a universal remote programmed for my Sony Tv it would also turn on my Sony blu ray and Sony Receiver? I kind of thought it would be like a universal remote where you have to program it for each device so it knows what signal to output.
No, I think the first post is the one that is confused. smile.gif Unless you're using 2 identical devices, the IR codes will be different so blasting an IR code to turn on the TV will not turn on the same branded receiver. Sure there are scenarios where that is possible, think 2 identical TVs in adjacent rooms, but in this case they will already turn on unintentionally sometimes. IR signals bounce all over the place off the walls.
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post #7382 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 10:27 AM
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I'm not sure how it is better since it is exactly the same requirement as backwards compatibility.

Cause there's no discs, second controllers or other accessories involved, no overlapping interfaces or anything like that. It should be able to function as well as any other cable box via the Kinect IR commands, and will probably support the X1 controller via that as well.

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post #7383 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by spid View Post

Xbox One will support 8 controllers at once.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/9/3/4689010/xbox-one-will-support-up-to-eight-controllers-at-once

8-player Bomberman, please!
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post #7384 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

Unless I missed it, I am surprised this has not gained more traction on these forums. There is a rumor that is gaining traction amongst tech-heads across the web. The rumor is that the X1 may actually contain a Dual-GPU? Basically (if true) this would mean the X1 would actually have 2.5-3.5 Tflops of power. After the "Hot Chips" conference, in which MS revealed the X1's main chip, there have been a lot of credible tech-sites reporting that MS did not disclose the whole story behind their custom chip, and that there is definitely more to the story. There is speculation that MS may be restricted by a NDA with AMD until Sept. 29th.

Here is a video showing the X1 console. Notice there is a piece of rubber/foam covering a top corner of the console. The guy in the video points it out and explains that it is covering tech-specs that MS doesn't want revealed. Do they not want it revealed? Or, are they not allowed to reveal it?

There is a blog containing a ton of information on the topic. There is a lot of credible intel in this blog.

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/132131.html

Here is a new video from RedGamingTech about the X1 CPU running at a higher speed than previously thought. He also mentions some of the mysteries or unknowns of the X1 chip. I realize this video is referencing CPU not GPU, but I put it in here to show more evidence that we don't have the full story on the X1 hardware yet!

Now, true or not, I'll be happy with my X1 the way I already understand it to be. But, if these things prove to be true, it would be sweet!

So theyre suggesting that its much more powerful than the PS3....but they just don't want anyone to know it?

Preposterous if you ask me, but I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.
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post #7385 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RexHarrison View Post

Drenching the room in IR might cause some issues. Ex. If all of your devices are Sony, you're going to be turning things on that you don't necessarily want on. Or if you have a TV of the same brand in the kitchen, that will turn on also.

The article I read said that it would work similar to a harmony one.

That means, to me, that it turns on specific things depending on what you want to do.

I may walk in the room and say, "Xbox Watch TV" and it turns on the TV, Receiver(if used for audio), and cable box

If I say, "Xbox, watch a movie" it will turn on the TV and Receiver and either an Oppo or maybe I just use the built in bluray drive...

"xbox listen to music" may turn on the preamp which will trigger the amplifiers to come on....

This is all speculation but I highly doubt that you will walk in the room and say "Xbox On" and it will turn everything on that it possibly can in every room that it can reach. There will be some user set up involved.

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post #7386 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 11:42 AM
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So theyre suggesting that its much more powerful than the PS3....but they just don't want anyone to know it?

Preposterous if you ask me, but I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.

Maybe it could be a political move that AMD required as to not step on the toes of Sony since they are supplying both manufacturers?

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post #7387 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 11:49 AM
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Maybe it could be a political move that AMD required as to not step on the toes of Sony since they are supplying both manufacturers?

I'd think that would work both ways, but Sony hasn't been holding back.

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post #7388 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 11:55 AM
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I'd think that would work both ways, but Sony hasn't been holding back.

Yea but maybe the deal was made with Sony first? I dont know.

Business politics are annoying. I dont think we will now anything for a few more months.

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post #7389 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 12:00 PM
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Yea but maybe the deal was made with Sony first? I dont know.

Business politics are annoying. I dont think we will now anything for a few more months.
I'm extremely skeptical...I guess after September 29th comes and goes we'll know for sure.
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post #7390 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 12:00 PM
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Would be shocking if there was some sort of dual GPU setup...

However, there is some common sense thinking to the 1.9GHz CPU rumor... not versed enough to understand whether Semiaccurate's analysis is valid or not, here's what they wrote:

The CPUs connect to four 64b wide 2GB DDR3-2133 channels for a grand total of 68GB/sec bandwidth. Do note that this number exactly matches the width of a single on-die memory block. One interesting thing to note is that the speed of the CPU MMU’s coherent link to the DRAM controller is only 30GBps, something that strongly suggests that Microsoft sticks with Jaguar’s half-clock speed NB. If the NB to DRAM controller is 256b/32B wide, that would mean it runs at about 938MHz, 1.88GHz if it is 128b/16B wide.

SemiAccurate would be very surprised if it was 128b wide, wires are cheap, power saving areas not. Why is this important? Unless Microsoft’s XBox One architects are masochists that enjoy doing needless and annoying work they would not have reinvented the wheel and put an arbitrarily clockable asynchronous interface between the NB and the CPU cores/L2s. Added complexity, lowered performance, and die penalty for absolutely no useful upside is not a good architectural decision. That means the XBox One’s 8 Jaguar cores are clocked at ~1.9GHz, something that wasn’t announced at Hot Chips. Now you know.
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post #7391 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 12:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

So theyre suggesting that its much more powerful than the PS3....but they just don't want anyone to know it?

Preposterous if you ask me, but I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.

Seems legit.

Microsoft exec #1 : " We're taking a beating for having a less powerful, more expensive console without a release date yet! We're getting out-preordered 2 to 1 right now! What the hell are we gonna do about this !?!?!?! "

Exec #2 : " Wait for it, waaaaait for it, waaaait for it, waaaaaaait for it, waaait........."
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post #7392 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 12:24 PM
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New Ryse Combat ViDoc (Click to show)

Pretty cool smile.gif.
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post #7393 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 01:44 PM
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VentureBeat has a nice article on the NFL and ESPN on Xbox initiatives... one of the benefits of the ESPN app in Windows 8 was that you had free access to some ESPN Insider content which otherwise required a paid subscription to read it through a web browser. I'm glad that's carrying over to the Xbox.

http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/03/xbox-nfl-espn/

Beyond Madden: Microsoft, ESPN, and NFL turn the Xbox into a football box

Today, the maker of the upcoming Xbox One home gaming console announced a new partnership with the NFL and a deepening of its existing deal with ESPN (which has been in place since November 2010). When Microsoft’s new system debuts in November, it’ll come with more options for watching sports — especially pro football — and how you can check statistics for your fantasy team.

The new pacts also bring more to the Xbox 360 as well. Either way, both require premium Xbox Live Gold memberships but do not require the paid ESPN Insider subscription (unless you want access to Insider content). The thinking behind this is that instead of sending a football fan to a second screen, such as a smartphone or tablet, they come to the Xbox.

All Xbox 360 content is live today; anything for the Xbox One launches when the box debuts in November (Microsoft has still not announced the exact date for when the Xbox One is coming out as of this report).

The ESPN app retains its current presentation 360 presentation. A row of tiles below the main screen displays your viewing options. Microsoft says now it can “drill” better into your preferences, showing you the sports you want to see (this can become a no-hockey zone should you despise that sport). But now it also offers a multiple feed view akin to what you might get from DirecTV’s Sports Mix — on in this case, on steriods, showing you 20 different games at once.

Think one of the TV walls in a sportsbook in Las Vegas (without the gambling, of course).

“This really shows well on a Saturday [the main day for college football games]. You can have upward of 20 live games — a ‘command center’ experience,” Microsoft director of Xbox sports David Jurenka said. “You have multiple tiles to see the action on. Say Alabama is playing [Texas] A&M, and Alabama scores in the fourth quarter, you can see this on the right-hand side and switch to it.”

Also new for the Xbox One is Scorecenter (note the similarity to SportsCenter, ESPN’s flagship news and highlights show, here). It’s not on the 360. It shows many basic stats, but Microsoft itself admits it’s not as comprehensive as many box scores you’re find online. Asked if you could go into a score and find a specific player’s stats, Jurenka responded, “Not at this time,” he said. “It shows the first line of detail, but it doesn’t drill down as deep as the web. You’ll need a second screen — like a Surface — to do this.”

The final ESPN component I saw was ESPN Trending, which shows on your Xbox what’s popular on website of “The Worldwide Leader.” Microsoft said while it remains to be seen if this feature can deliver breaking news, Trending receives basically the same content as ESPN.com. “If it’s there, it’s going to bring it up here,” the rep said.

With Fox recently launching its own 24-hour sports network, ESPN could find itself in a growing competition for viewers on many devices. But ESPN vice president of games and partnerships Raphael Poplock said says the Xbox partnership isn’t about beating out the competition.

“We place quite a bit of importance on presenting content to and serving our sports fans,” Poplock said over the phone from ESPN’s New York office. “We think about the fan first and how these partnerships can serve them first.”

The NFL’s deal with Microsoft means you can view NFL.com and NFL fantasy football content from your Xbox One. This includes one of the NFL Network’s vaunted features, Red Zone (which shows a number of games and once and zooms into any where a team is about to score). You can now livestream shows from the NFL Network — yes, that means the Mooch (aka NFL Network talking head Steve Mariucci) is now on your Xbox as well. Microsoft will not be getting any exclusive content from the NFL Network yet, though this is something it says the league’s open to talking about. And on the right-hand side, the new “My Fantasy Reel” shows your team and league and other information and stats pertinent to fantasy football.

It’s Kinect-enabled as well. Say “Xbox, stats” and you can browse a team’s or player’s performance. Unlike the ESPN app, the NFL app also provides “deeper” stats as well on particular players — essential for any fantasy football experience.

And if you find the right-side rail distracting, you can say “Xbox, fullscreen” and do away with it.

While My Fantasy Reel showcases the NFL’s fantasy football capability, this isn’t the only way to get fantasy football on your Xbox. You can also see updates from Yahoo, ESPN, CBS, or other providers — just not in the My Fantasy Reel feed. Microsoft didn’t explain how this will work, mostly because it’s not sure. “You will be able to log in and see these [fantasy] teams, but we’re not sure how it’s going to look yet,” Jurenka said.

[UPDATE: A Microsoft rep later said that "you won’t be able to log in and see fantasy teams from other services at launch; it will only be from NFL.com. Additional fantasy programs are forward-looking additions to the app."]

The fantasy football component is for the 360, but watching the NFL Network is something only the Xbox One can do.
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post #7394 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 01:51 PM
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I don't think any high performance games use HTML5 (in fact, I still think Flash is a better option in terms of performance and feature set even though it's a buggy mess). But HTML5 sure helps with app development...

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/199486/HTML5_games_on_Xbox_One_Microsoft_eyes_crossplatform_development.php

HTML5 games on Xbox One? Microsoft eyes cross-platform development

Microsoft's acquisition of Nokia's mobile business today showed that the company is serious about aggressively taking on the mobile competition. But with other massive platforms already around, including iOS and Android, how does Microsoft plan to convince developers to jump on board?

The key, says Microsoft's EVP of operating systems Terry Myerson, is to provide developers with a way to build apps and games that can then be released across all Microsoft devices easily.

And this includes allowing for HTML5 and native applications across all the company's devices, including smartphones, tablets, and the upcoming Xbox One.

"We want to offer [developers] the opportunity to build either HTML5 applications, or native applications that span all of those devices, enabling them to reach segments of users on those devices, users on a gaming console, and provide them with very unique opportunities to monetize their application investments," he explained as part of today's Microsoft Nokia Transaction Conference Call.

Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer added that driving consumers to Microsoft devices was the company's main goal, as this will eventually lead to a wider range of developers, apps and games on Microsoft systems.

"We think we have differentiated products, we can tell the story a little bit better, and we can get volume up," he said. "You know, we have over 160,000 applications on the [Windows] Store, and we know we have a long way to go. The key is really offering, with our own first-party applications and first-party hardware, enough reasons to drive volumes, and attract a broader developer ecosystem."

And discussing HTML5 development for Windows phones, tablets and Xbox One, Ballmer noted, "Obviously HTML5 would be kind of a neutral thing - I would expect all the major platforms to embrace it to some extent, and in some senses it takes away a little bit of the app barrier to entry which we know we need to work hard on right now."
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post #7395 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 01:56 PM
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I think HTML 5 would make a lot of sense for those second screen apps though.

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post #7396 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 03:51 PM
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http://www.geekwire.com/2013/xbox-update-console-full-production-improved-cpu-performance/

Now up to 1.75ghz for the CPU from 1.6, confirmed by Albert Penello on Twitter. Good to see them finding their groove on what the system can handle now that it's in production.
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post #7397 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 05:23 PM
 
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http://www.geekwire.com/2013/xbox-update-console-full-production-improved-cpu-performance/

Now up to 1.75ghz for the CPU from 1.6, confirmed by Albert Penello on Twitter. Good to see them finding their groove on what the system can handle now that it's in production.

Was just going to post this, good news indeed!
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post #7398 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 05:30 PM
 
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Unless I missed it, I am surprised this has not gained more traction on these forums. There is a rumor that is gaining traction amongst tech-heads across the web. The rumor is that the X1 may actually contain a Dual-GPU? Basically (if true) this would mean the X1 would actually have 2.5-3.5 Tflops of power. After the "Hot Chips" conference, in which MS revealed the X1's main chip, there have been a lot of credible tech-sites reporting that MS did not disclose the whole story behind their custom chip, and that there is definitely more to the story. There is speculation that MS may be restricted by a NDA with AMD until Sept. 29th.

I wouldn't get your hopes up. These console are way too cheap, and the power draws way to low to be offering GTX 770 like brute performance.

The other chips are low level ARM's to help with low power states and background functions.
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post #7399 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 05:37 PM
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Yeah that's some wishful thinking there. I really doubt we wouldn't have heard something from this by now.
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post #7400 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 08:31 PM
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Was just going to post this, good news indeed!

Not that I'm mad about any sort of speed increase, but I'd much rather have seen a further GPU bump. I'm sure they're pushing the GPU as far as they can already, and I doubt this is actually preventing them from going further, but the CPU hardly has anything to do in these next gen consoles as it is. Pretty much everything is better done on the GPU or is already being offloaded to one of the bajillion coprocessors they've got in there. It won't hurt, but it won't have any real significance in the long run either.

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post #7401 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 08:34 PM
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if anyone wants to listen to Mehdi's presentation at Citi Global Technology Conference:

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Honestly, I think demand for both the PS4 and Xbox One is weak. The PS4 has more demand, but both are really weak when you consider at least half of all pre-orders are taken up by Ebay and Craigslist resellers. Sony claims they have over one million preorders, worldwide for the PS4. Yet, I know multiple people that have 5 or 6 PS4's on hold, just for themselves. The theory being that they can be flipped for a tidy profit. Xbox One preorders are the same way. I would guess that 40 percent of the preorders in the USA are being held by people with no intention whatsoever of keeping the console for themselves.

Remember the Wii U ? It was discovered that over 350,000 Wii U systems were returned to retailers in January. It's a proven fact that there is a certain demographic of Americans that bounce from one hot product to another, trying to buy up all availability and then scalp for profit. Remember when Skylanders was new ? Those people will jump on anything. I can guarantee you that those people are out in full force with tons of preorders for both XB1 and PS4. Trying to figure out the actual legitimate demand for these things is going to be quite difficult, because so much of the current demand is not from end users. I hope the head honchos at Sony (and Microsoft), both understand that most of the demand is an illusion. Whatever preorder numbers they are seeing, they should probably only consider 1/4 of that to be legitimate fans that actually intend to buy the product, take it home, and keep it for years to come.


So, anyways, here's the reason I'm posting this. You know when Target started offering in store preorders like two weeks ago ? Well, because I have a Target red card thing, I figured I might as well get my systems from there, because might as well save 5 percent on these big ticket items. So, I went to my local Target, and they had 15 Xbox One tickets, and 12 PS4 tickets. I got one of each. Well, I went to the same Target on Labor Day, and happened to ask the sales guy if they sold out of all their preorders. He said no. He said they still had preorders available for both of them.

I went and looked for the preorder cards. They had 2 left of the PS4 cards, and 12 left of the Xbox One cards. I couldn't believe that only two other people besides myself preordered the Xbox One there. Only two other people. Only nine other people preordered the PS4.

Now, I don't know about you, but back in the days of the Xbox 360 launch, or the PS3 launch, all those systems preorders would have been accounted for in one or two days. You wouldn't be able to find a pre-order anywhere. That is not happening right now. There are plenty of places you can still preorder these systems online, and in stores. We are in the month of September, and these systems are only like 70 something days away, and preorders are still freely available.


Demand for these things is extraordinarily weak imo.
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post #7403 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 10:33 PM
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I have multiple pre-orders for each system, but not to resell. At some point I will cancel them and only have one pre-order left, for the XBOne. But I wanted multiple pre-orders in case a mistake happened somewhere. I'll pick up a PS4 in 2014 since the TiVo Roamio was recently released. The TiVo was my top priority with the XBOne second and the PS4 third.

Pre-orders are also still available because both companies will supposedly have an unprecedented amount of systems available. It sounds like the XBOne will break game systems sales records. But then the PS4 will also break the same sale records and sell even more.

If the XBOne comes out before the PS4, then they will be able to have the sales records for that week or so until the PS4 is released. Then the PS4 will break the sales records that the XBOne set.

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I have multiple pre-orders for each system, but not to resell. At some point I will cancel them and only have one pre-order left, for the XBOne. But I wanted multiple pre-orders in case a mistake happened somewhere. .

So, we have a certain percentage of the preorders that are just for scalping, and then we also have a certain percentage that are duplicate preorders, to guarantee at least one of them comes through. Then of course, we have the legitimate preorders from the end users that are waiting with baited breath to get these systems home, and hooked up to their plasmas.

I'd guess that 35 percent of the preorders are pure speculation. 15 percent are duplicates, to "guarantee" at least one of them comes thru, and then we have the other 50 percent that are legitimate customers. Do you think all the Microsoft and Sony head honchos are aware of the fact that half their total preorder numbers are fake ? Normally, you would think " of course they know, this is their business, this is their livelihood, they would have to know". Yet, remember during the launch of the PS3, when Tretton said he would give $2000 to anybody that could find a PS3 in stores or some nonsense like that ? I kinda think that these guys live in their own little bubble, and they have no idea how big the whole Ebay / Craigslist game as become. There are legions of unemployed people that try to make money on product flipping and scarcity. Way more of these people nowadays, then ever before.

I seriously believe there are people out there that have 10 of each of these systems on preorder. Maybe even more of them.
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post #7405 of 16357 Old 09-03-2013, 11:12 PM
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Now, I don't know about you, but back in the days of the Xbox 360 launch, or the PS3 launch, all those systems preorders would have been accounted for in one or two days. You wouldn't be able to find a pre-order anywhere. That is not happening right now. There are plenty of places you can still preorder these systems online, and in stores. We are in the month of September, and these systems are only like 70 something days away, and preorders are still freely available.


Demand for these things is extraordinarily weak imo.

Both Microsoft and Sony are claiming that pre-orders for their respective systems have greatly exceeded those for Xbox 360 and PS3. If there are pre-orders left it's because they're manufacturing more systems for launch than they've pre-sold. It doesn't matter if the people who've ordered them actually use them, as long as they pay for and don't return them; tons of pre-orders for the 360 and PS3 were by people who intended to flip them as well.

I still have a pre-order in for PS4 which I'll be dropping. I will get one eventually, just not at launch.

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post #7406 of 16357 Old 09-04-2013, 12:20 AM
 
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Honestly, I think demand for both the PS4 and Xbox One is weak. The PS4 has more demand, but both are really weak when you consider at least half of all pre-orders are taken up by Ebay and Craigslist resellers. Sony claims they have over one million preorders, worldwide for the PS4. Yet, I know multiple people that have 5 or 6 PS4's on hold, just for themselves. The theory being that they can be flipped for a tidy profit. Xbox One preorders are the same way. I would guess that 40 percent of the preorders in the USA are being held by people with no intention whatsoever of keeping the console for themselves.

Remember the Wii U ? It was discovered that over 350,000 Wii U systems were returned to retailers in January. It's a proven fact that there is a certain demographic of Americans that bounce from one hot product to another, trying to buy up all availability and then scalp for profit. Remember when Skylanders was new ? Those people will jump on anything. I can guarantee you that those people are out in full force with tons of preorders for both XB1 and PS4. Trying to figure out the actual legitimate demand for these things is going to be quite difficult, because so much of the current demand is not from end users. I hope the head honchos at Sony (and Microsoft), both understand that most of the demand is an illusion. Whatever preorder numbers they are seeing, they should probably only consider 1/4 of that to be legitimate fans that actually intend to buy the product, take it home, and keep it for years to come.


So, anyways, here's the reason I'm posting this. You know when Target started offering in store preorders like two weeks ago ? Well, because I have a Target red card thing, I figured I might as well get my systems from there, because might as well save 5 percent on these big ticket items. So, I went to my local Target, and they had 15 Xbox One tickets, and 12 PS4 tickets. I got one of each. Well, I went to the same Target on Labor Day, and happened to ask the sales guy if they sold out of all their preorders. He said no. He said they still had preorders available for both of them.

I went and looked for the preorder cards. They had 2 left of the PS4 cards, and 12 left of the Xbox One cards. I couldn't believe that only two other people besides myself preordered the Xbox One there. Only two other people. Only nine other people preordered the PS4.

Now, I don't know about you, but back in the days of the Xbox 360 launch, or the PS3 launch, all those systems preorders would have been accounted for in one or two days. You wouldn't be able to find a pre-order anywhere. That is not happening right now. There are plenty of places you can still preorder these systems online, and in stores. We are in the month of September, and these systems are only like 70 something days away, and preorders are still freely available.


Demand for these things is extraordinarily weak imo.

I think you're way off on this. This is by far the biggest console launch of all time. The demand seemed much higher for the PS3 because Sony wasn't prepared and they weren't producing enough units to meet demand. They realized what a colossal mistake that was and how many potential $'s they missed out on. This time around they are much more prepared.

Sure there are some people preordering PS4's an XBones with the intent to resale at a higher price, but it's not as high a percentage as you seem to think it is. If Sony and Msoft keep production #'s high (and I see no reason why they won't this time around) then there will be no resale black-market.
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post #7407 of 16357 Old 09-04-2013, 03:33 AM
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Even if someone has 10 preordered with intent of selling 9 of them, why should that be any different if 10 different people had preordered them? On launch day/week its still 10 people using the system regardless of where they got it from. They were all paid $499 so MS doesnt care.

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post #7408 of 16357 Old 09-04-2013, 04:26 AM
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The difference he is talking about is that if the supply is as large as stated then those 9 units will either be canceled or returned to the retailer within 30 days . The intention may have been to sell them for a quick flip but that only works if supply is low.
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post #7409 of 16357 Old 09-04-2013, 05:10 AM
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post #7410 of 16357 Old 09-04-2013, 05:14 AM
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The difference he is talking about is that if the supply is as large as stated then those 9 units will either be canceled or returned to the retailer within 30 days . The intention may have been to sell them for a quick flip but that only works if supply is low.

Didn't that happen with the WiiU? A bunch of returns within 30 or 60 days of it originally going on sale. To the point that the sales numbers in one month were negative because of the returns? Or was that another game system?

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