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post #7471 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 03:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

ugh... no helmet, please...

Long term the idea is to drastically reduce the size. It probably end up looking like Google glasses bigger brother, without the transparency.

I do agree it's still a bit too unwieldy.
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post #7472 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

You don't hold onto your ace when you're getting PR slammed and pre-orders are so bad that you're last minuet rewriting the OS and ditching polices staked out months and years beforehand. If the XBone was ~2X as powerful as the PS4 and in line with a GTX770 for $500, it would have been the first thing out of their mouth.
Part of the rumor, though, is that they are under an NDA until September 29th. Now, I think this whole scenario is about as likely as being hit by a meteor but, if true, it would directly rebut this line of thinking.
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post #7473 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

Part of the rumor, though, is that they are under an NDA until September 29th. Now, I think this whole scenario is about as likely as being hit by a meteor but, if true, it would directly rebut this line of thinking.

For what its worth, I've (well, my car) actually been hit by a meteorite. tongue.gif
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post #7474 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

Part of the rumor, though, is that they are under an NDA until September 29th. Now, I think this whole scenario is about as likely as being hit by a meteor but, if true, it would directly rebut this line of thinking.
Or maybe the first rule of dGPU club is that you do not talk about dGPU club.

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post #7475 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 04:11 PM
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1. What does FPS and Hz have to do with eachother? On the surface, I understand that Hz is the number of time a screen refreshes and fps is the number of times an image is written to the screen. But...see next question.

2. Xbone is supposed to be able to play games at 60FPS. Is it possible to play at 60FPS with a 60hz panel?

3. What would the benefit of a 120Hz panel be for an Xbone?

4. Is there a huge difference between a 15ms lag time and a 30ms?


Basically, I have searched and searched for the PERFECT TV for around $1000. It has been two months. I cannot find a REAL answer to these questions and it is bugging me.

I realize that plasma has great refresh rates, but has terrible input lag, they also have low brightness. I cannot live without the last two.

This is my current front-runner:

http://store.vizio.com/m551da2r.html

It has a 30ms lag and "240hz(fake)" It would be great to find out if it is native 120Hz too!!!!! It will seal the deal for me if someone can find if it is tru 120Hz not interpolated from 60hz.

THANKS!
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post #7476 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 04:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by XboneSetup View Post

1. What does FPS and Hz have to do with eachother? On the surface, I understand that Hz is the number of time a screen refreshes and fps is the number of times an image is written to the screen. But...see next question.

2. Xbone is supposed to be able to play games at 60FPS. Is it possible to play at 60FPS with a 60hz panel?

3. What would the benefit of a 120Hz panel be for an Xbone?

4. Is there a huge difference between a 15ms lag time and a 30ms?


Basically, I have searched and searched for the PERFECT TV for around $1000. It has been two months. I cannot find a REAL answer to these questions and it is bugging me.

I realize that plasma has great refresh rates, but has terrible input lag, they also have low brightness. I cannot live without the last two.

This is my current front-runner:

http://store.vizio.com/m551da2r.html

It has a 30ms lag and "240hz(fake)" It would be great to find out if it is native 120Hz too!!!!! It will seal the deal for me if someone can find if it is tru 120Hz not interpolated from 60hz.

THANKS!

Of course you can play 60fps on a 60hz TV. You're getting frame for frame refresh. I usually turn off 120hz or 240hz when playing video games, it's typically not needed with today's sets ( because ghosting is a thing of the past for today's mid to upper range LCD's ) and it only adds additional unecessary processing.

I had the Vizio M and its awesome for gaming. I would recommend going with the "60 instead though because the 55" has a lot of issues. I believe the M's are native at 120hz.
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post #7477 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 04:21 PM
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1. You got it.

2. Absolutely.

3. 120hz on its own? Nothing. Most 120hz sets will feature frame interpolation , that will crudely smooth out the frame rate to mimic 120fps, but always adds a lot of lag, and usually looks terrible.

4. Depends on your definition of huge, but no, not really.

Many plasmas have excellent lag, and lots of LCDs don't. LCDs are brighter, but plasmas arent exactly dim.

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post #7478 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 04:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

1. You got it.

2. Absolutely.

3. 120hz on its own? Nothing. Most 120hz sets will feature frame interpolation , that will crudely smooth out the frame rate to mimic 120fps, but always adds a lot of lag, and usually looks terrible.

4. Depends on your definition of huge, but no, not really.

Many plasmas have excellent lag, and lots of LCDs don't. LCDs are brighter, but plasmas arent exactly dim.

Actually almost all plasmas for 2013 have brutal input lag times. LCD's are much better nowadays. Especially Sony's and Samsungs ( aside from the F8000)
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post #7479 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by RexHarrison View Post

Actually almost all plasmas for 2013 have brutal input lag times. LCD's are much better nowadays. Especially Sony's and Samsungs ( aside from the F8000)

There's still no general rule. The VT60 has excellent lag. Only way to know for sure is to research each model individually.

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post #7480 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Or maybe the first rule of dGPU club is that you do not talk about dGPU club.

haha biggrin.gif Hilarious!

Back to the person asking why Microsoft hasn't talked about it is, as mentioned, the NDA. Around September 22nd through the 29th, AMD is supposed to release information about their Volcanic Islands Hawaii GPU. Thus the conspiracy is, Microsoft can't disclose this part of their system. To further the conspiracy, you have reputable site (semiaccurate) saying that there is something left out of Microsoft's system presentation which Semiaccurate website calls subsystems if I remember correctly. Furthermore the chip is actually larger than it should be (or something like that), thus there has to be something else stuck in there. He shows pictures and explains his point. Now this might all be apples and oranges, or apples and oranges and grapefruit, but the conspiracy has been woven very well to make it appear there is something there. What I just typed is a novices quick explanation of the conspiracy, but you can read the ramblings at this link: http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/ Sept 2nd post is the one to check out!

He is Russian, so English is not his first language, but generally his points can be followed very easily. Again, he is very confident, unlike most of us, but I found it interesting to read nonetheless.

I think we all want magic to happen that a $500 console competes with high end PCs. But alas I will be disappointed...but I guess I will cross fingers for this magic box to give me 1080p/60. tongue.gif

PS: OH NO. This site has gone from conspiracy theory, see above, to trying to find the perfect Xbox display. Call me when they release CRTs again! biggrin.gif
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post #7481 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

There's still no general rule. The VT60 has excellent lag. Only way to know for sure is to research each model individually.

Man I hate researching. I wish they would just give you all the stats on amazon
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post #7482 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 04:44 PM
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Man I hate researching. I wish they would just give you all the stats on amazon

You shouldn't trust them even if they did.

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post #7483 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by XboneSetup View Post

1. What does FPS and Hz have to do with eachother? On the surface, I understand that Hz is the number of time a screen refreshes and fps is the number of times an image is written to the screen. But...see next question.

2. Xbone is supposed to be able to play games at 60FPS. Is it possible to play at 60FPS with a 60hz panel?

3. What would the benefit of a 120Hz panel be for an Xbone?

4. Is there a huge difference between a 15ms lag time and a 30ms?


Basically, I have searched and searched for the PERFECT TV for around $1000. It has been two months. I cannot find a REAL answer to these questions and it is bugging me.

I realize that plasma has great refresh rates, but has terrible input lag, they also have low brightness. I cannot live without the last two.

This is my current front-runner:

http://store.vizio.com/m551da2r.html

It has a 30ms lag and "240hz(fake)" It would be great to find out if it is native 120Hz too!!!!! It will seal the deal for me if someone can find if it is tru 120Hz not interpolated from 60hz.

THANKS!

Save yourself $800 bucks and buy yourself a gaming monitor!

No TV will come close to the lack of response time (edit)) on this thing - http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-VH236H-23-Inch-Full-HD-Monitor/dp/B002453K5G

I bought a 2013 Panny Plasma, and that thing can't hold a candle to this monitor from a FPS standpoint. I game solely on it, and it makes a huge difference in gameplay. I'll even add that most of the really good players from older COD AND MW threads use these.
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post #7484 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 05:16 PM
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If I played in my room then it wouldnt be a problem, but I play in living room and probably need glasses soon lol
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post #7485 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 05:36 PM
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About the rumor that the X1 may have dual GPU and the foam/rubber cover on the back of the console in that one video....

I just realized another possibility with the hidden specs is that it could be covering up other information not related to game performance. For instance, maybe the console supports SACD playback? Built in Slacker Radio? etc.

Just felt like throwing that out there.

I just watched the Major Nelson unboxing. There are no system specs on the upper left of the top of the XBO? This contradicts those two from the other video saying the black sticker is hiding specs. WTH? Okay, MN's XBO was not final, or those two British guys doing the overview actually followed orders. Don't look under this sticker says Microsoft...and they didn't. These guys had no clue what they were getting for Christmas.

Something is fishy...

Ps: rewatched the two British guys again from uk oxm and it sounds like they saw what they called a sticker with system specs. Not certain but just going on context. Presumably the black sticker/cardboard was taped on for the video, and it is much to do about nothing...
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post #7486 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 05:50 PM
 
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Save yourself $800 bucks and buy yourself a gaming monitor!

No TV will come close to the lack of input lag on this thing - http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-VH236H-23-Inch-Full-HD-Monitor/dp/B002453K5G

I bought a 2013 Panny Plasma, and that thing can't hold a candle to this monitor from a FPS standpoint. I game solely on it, and it makes a huge difference in gameplay. I'll even add that most of the really good players from older COD AND MW threads use these.

Do you realize response time is completely different from input lag ? Most LCD TV's nowadays have an 8ms or less response time. That number has more to do with eliminating ghosting that used to plague early LCD's.

Response time is how quickly a pixel can turn on, off, and on again.

Input lag is the time it takes the screen to display an image that it has been sent ( the time between a button press and movement on the screen) input lag is usually the result of the monitor doing too much video processing.


Unless you're a professional gamer, anything less than 45ms isn't going to be noticeable. If you think an extra 20ms is going to turn you into a crappy gamer then you're probably not that good to begin with.
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post #7487 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RexHarrison View Post

Do you realize response time is completely different from input lag ? Most LCD TV's nowadays have an 8ms or less response time. That number has more to do with eliminating ghosting that used to plague early LCD's.

Response time is how quickly a pixel can turn on, off, and on again.

Input lag is the time it takes the screen to display an image that it has been sent ( the time between a button press and movement on the screen) input lag is usually the result of the monitor doing too much video processing.


Unless you're a professional gamer, anything less than 45ms isn't going to be noticeable. If you think an extra 20ms is going to turn you into a crappy gamer then you're probably not that good to begin with.

My bad on that. Meant to type response time (long day).

Anyways, I disagree with your last statement a lot actually. If you watch me play on the monitor, and then flip over to the 50 inch Plasma there is an enormous difference. While I'm no pro-gamer, I haven't met many people with higher scores/stats than myself in HC (many people can confirm this on these boards).

Hop on over to the Black ops 2 thread and see how many of the Chalup guys play with LCD's compared to monitor's. You'll find a vast majority of higher quality players use monitors exclusively.

To the original poster, look at Plasma's if you've got your heart set on a big TV. They are superior to LCD/LED's right now (don't believe me, head over to the TV forum on this site).

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post #7488 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by vedderpj13 View Post

My bad on that. Meant to type response time (long day).

Anyways, I disagree with your last statement a lot actually. If you watch me play on the monitor, and then flip over to the 50 inch Plasma there is an enormous difference. While I'm no pro-gamer, I haven't met many people with higher scores/stats than myself in HC (many people can confirm this on these boards).

Hop on over to the Black ops 2 thread and see how many of the Chalup guys play with LCD's compared to monitor's. You'll find a vast majority of higher quality players use monitors exclusively.

To the original poster, look at Plasma's if you've got your heart set on a big TV. They are superior to LCD/LED's right now (don't believe me, head over to the TV forum on this site).

No issues playing on a DLP. It's a couple of orders of magnitude faster than an LCD.

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post #7489 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Savage View Post

haha biggrin.gif Hilarious!

Back to the person asking why Microsoft hasn't talked about it is, as mentioned, the NDA. Around September 22nd through the 29th, AMD is supposed to release information about their Volcanic Islands Hawaii GPU. Thus the conspiracy is, Microsoft can't disclose this part of their system. To further the conspiracy, you have reputable site (semiaccurate) saying that there is something left out of Microsoft's system presentation which Semiaccurate website calls subsystems if I remember correctly. Furthermore the chip is actually larger than it should be (or something like that), thus there has to be something else stuck in there. He shows pictures and explains his point. Now this might all be apples and oranges, or apples and oranges and grapefruit, but the conspiracy has been woven very well to make it appear there is something there. What I just typed is a novices quick explanation of the conspiracy, but you can read the ramblings at this link: http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/ Sept 2nd post is the one to check out!

He is Russian, so English is not his first language, but generally his points can be followed very easily. Again, he is very confident, unlike most of us, but I found it interesting to read nonetheless.

I think we all want magic to happen that a $500 console competes with high end PCs. But alas I will be disappointed...but I guess I will cross fingers for this magic box to give me 1080p/60. tongue.gif

PS: OH NO. This site has gone from conspiracy theory, see above, to trying to find the perfect Xbox display. Call me when they release CRTs again! biggrin.gif

I will say that however bizarre and unlikely a development this would be....I really want to believe him. Some of the stuff he points out seems like a stretch, but parts of it are genuinely compelling. A dual GPU setup isn't far fetched from a technical standpoint at all, I even suggested the possibility years ago. But the lead up to this supposed reveal is so preposterous that the common sense part of my brain simply won't accept it.

If its true though, and Sony doesnt have a similar trick up their sleeve, the X1 definitely becomes the new front runner in my eyes.

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post #7490 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 07:14 PM
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Yeah. Actually past the Sept 2nd post gets into some more "interesting" conspiracies as well as a bunch of repetition. I have read pretty much the majority of the blog over the last few hours anD I am not sure if I have a headache or am shell shocked or what. Proceed with caution if you attempt to read this. Granted it would probably help to be more tech savy than I, especially with all the acronyms he drops, etc.

Supposedly the guy has an insider that is dropping this info. I am with you BD2003. I want to believe. I just keep reading cause the guy types like he believes. He may be the ultimate fanboy, but if what he is "reporting" is true, we will all be.
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post #7491 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 07:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vedderpj13 View Post

My bad on that. Meant to type response time (long day).

Anyways, I disagree with your last statement a lot actually. If you watch me play on the monitor, and then flip over to the 50 inch Plasma there is an enormous difference. While I'm no pro-gamer, I haven't met many people with higher scores/stats than myself in HC (many people can confirm this on these boards).

Hop on over to the Black ops 2 thread and see how many of the Chalup guys play with LCD's compared to monitor's. You'll find a vast majority of higher quality players use monitors exclusively.

To the original poster, look at Plasma's if you've got your heart set on a big TV. They are superior to LCD/LED's right now (don't believe me, head over to the TV forum on this site).

I'm not sure if you're claiming a high response time can affect gaming or what you're trying to say. Monitors use LCD. Plasma's are worse this year as far as input lag goes. Sony makes 2 LCD's 55" and bigger that have 16ms input lags which is way better than any plasma ever. Almost all LCD tv's aside from the Element and Sceptre brands of the world, are going to have a 8ms or faster response time. Most middle to upper range are going to have 4ms or less. The 40" Samsung I bought 5 years ago had a 3ms response time.

If you want deep blacks and deep colors, Plasma is awesome. If you plan on doing a ton of gaming I'd still go LCD. LCD is worry free and very low maintenance compared to Plasma.
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post #7492 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 07:45 PM
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It's tough to decipher given the language barrier, but from what I can tell, he's saying its a stacked chip. The reason the die is supposedly wider than suggested is that the dGPU is actually bigger than the APU, with the APU presumably stacked right on top if it. And it's partially an IBM design, and has its own DRAM cache, and a whole bunch of other crazy suggestions. Earlier rumors had suggested that the X1 APU was a generation behind the PS4 when it comes to HSA, but this guy is claiming its actually a full generation ahead of the PS4, using the final HSA tech that AMD themselves won't implement until 2015.

When it's not gibberish, or straight up contradictory....it's almost believable. It wouldn't be the first time a console is a step or two ahead of desktop chips.

I can't believe I'm actually seriously contemplating there might be something to this. You know this is crazy, right?

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post #7493 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 07:56 PM
 
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Unless my Google skills are failing me, it's looking like this rumor is traced back to GameFaq forums. A place that might as well be the Mos Eisley of internet gaming information.

smile.gif

Believe!
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post #7494 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

It's tough to decipher given the language barrier, but from what I can tell, he's saying its a stacked chip. The reason the die is supposedly wider than suggested is that the dGPU is actually bigger than the APU, with the APU presumably stacked right on top if it. And it's partially an IBM design, and has its own DRAM cache, and a whole bunch of other crazy suggestions. Earlier rumors had suggested that the X1 APU was a generation behind the PS4 when it comes to HSA, but this guy is claiming its actually a full generation ahead of the PS4, using the final HSA tech that AMD themselves won't implement until 2015.

When it's not gibberish, or straight up contradictory....it's almost believable. It wouldn't be the first time a console is a step or two ahead of desktop chips.

I can't believe I'm actually seriously contemplating there might be something to this. You know this is crazy, right?
Yeah, the more I read what he's saying in the comments (and I can't believe I read them all), the less crazy it sounds. They have mentioned ray tracing in the past... so even if we're not talking a dGPU, you have to wonder if they're hiding another bank of CUs or doing some bizarre in-chip SLI thing.

I'm not holding my breath... but if this ends up even having a kernel of truth, WOW.

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post #7495 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 08:24 PM
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Yeap I agree with you. But I want to believe. But his site just turned things up to 360 degrees: I just reread his most recent post: Insider say that another person "that likes trains" is saying Shenmue 3 is coming to X1 and will be a system seller (I think...but then he transitions into Nintendo discussion) and I take this as Microsofts big trick for presumably Japanese markets. Insider says he is accurate (the guy that likes trains). I couldn't make this up, but he may be:P Muhahahaha. I'm going to bed after reading that one.

Shenmue 3! Holy Smoke!!!
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post #7496 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Yeah, the more I read what he's saying in the comments (and I can't believe I read them all), the less crazy it sounds. They have mentioned ray tracing in the past... so even if we're not talking a dGPU, you have to wonder if they're hiding another bank of CUs or doing some bizarre in-chip SLI thing.

I'm not holding my breath... but if this ends up even having a kernel of truth, WOW.

Jeremy, I think post #92 might be hitting on what you just mentioned. But not sure since some of this is out of my wheel house:

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/xbox-one-dgpu.453311803/page-2

Now I am really calling it a night, but saw your post and I remembered reading this from early. Thought it might have some similarities to what you was presuming up above. Let us know. Thanks!
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post #7497 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 08:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vedderpj13 View Post

Save yourself $800 bucks and buy yourself a gaming monitor!

No TV will come close to the lack of response time (edit)) on this thing - http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-VH236H-23-Inch-Full-HD-Monitor/dp/B002453K5G

I bought a 2013 Panny Plasma, and that thing can't hold a candle to this monitor from a FPS standpoint. I game solely on it, and it makes a huge difference in gameplay. I'll even add that most of the really good players from older COD AND MW threads use these.

I don't think I'll ever see the day when I value a 0.1% increase to my KDR (on BF, of course, not those "other" games) over playing on a 100+" screen instead of hunched over a tiny monitor.
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post #7498 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Savage View Post


Jeremy, I think post #92 might be hitting on what you just mentioned. But not sure since some of this is out of my wheel house:

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/xbox-one-dgpu.453311803/page-2

Now I am really calling it a night, but saw your post and I remembered reading this from early. Thought it might have some similarities to what you was presuming up above. Let us know. Thanks!

 

That guy has no idea what he's talking about, none of what he's saying makes any sense. He can't even spell the word "processor" correctly. He's literally just throwing concepts that he doesn't understand together and drawing some absolutely ridiculous conclusions from it. 

 

Don't get carried away believing every crazy thing you read. This rumor is still barely above the threshold of plausibility. 


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post #7499 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 09:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by spyder696969 View Post

I don't think I'll ever see the day when I value a 0.1% increase to my KDR (on BF, of course, not those "other" games) over playing on a 100+" screen instead of hunched over a tiny monitor.

Seriously ! It's more like + .01 to your K/D if that. Why the hell would I want a 23" monitor when I can play on a 55" ? Or in your case a 100".

2x the lag is nothing if you're going from 16ms to 32ms. Who the hell cares ?
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post #7500 of 16868 Old 09-04-2013, 10:01 PM
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http://wccftech.com/rumormicrosoft-xbox-possibly-feature-discrete-gpu-core-stacked-main-soc/

This was the best summary I could find of the rumored W2W discrete GPU which may be in the SOC itself, which some believe is based on the yet to be released VI architecture.

It is completely plausible in many ways. Microsoft could have penned an agreement with AMD guaranteeing them exclusive access to AMDs next gen graphics platform in exchange for silence until the reveal. Maybe Microsoft also had AMD sign an NDA to ensure that Sony didn't catch wind of this with enough time to make last minute changes.

3 things tell me this is impossible though no matter how much I want to believe it. Those 3 things are heat, power & cost.

Even if this architecture is possible, 3.5 Tflops of power on a chip that size has to put out some seroious heat...would Microsoft risk another RROD type incident with an unproven architecture like this just to get the one up on Sony? The power draw would also be significant...although Microsoft has gone the route of a large external power supply again cool.gif. It would be interesting if someone could find out what that power supply is rated at...

The potential nail in the coffin on this rumor would be cost though. How much per unit would Microsoft potentially be losing to pack in better than current PC graphics capability with a completely redesigned controller and Kinect at $500 a pop? MS lost about $130 per unit when the Xbox 360 launched. A complete SWAG would be what...maybe $250 per console assuming that kind of capability puts the unit cost in the 700-750 range (including Kinect)???

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Originally Posted by emartins

Instead of the usual 2 minutes, give her 5 minutes of nothing but that Jeep ecstasy. She will be exhausted and fall right to sleep. You are now free to play.


Thats what I do.

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