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post #7741 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 09:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

You mean the CGI target render was created on a top end dev PC? rolleyes.gif Because, you know, Sony would never do anything like that.


Well, this IS Capcom.

And No, it was real time but it was done on PC hardware much like the BF4/COD XBone reveals. Sony seems to have learned their lesson there, and none of their first party stuff was CGI this go around after rightfully getting hammered for the BS last time. One step further it was all PS4 code running on Dev kits.

Unfortunately they can’t control what 3rd parties want to do. I guess they could have said no to Capcom…

And let's not throw stones in glass Capcom houses. DR3 was first shown on PC as well, and when it moved to XBone dev kits the framerates have dropped into the teens-single digits with 2 months to launch.

I have no expectations for Capcom games anymore after they drove over my favorite franchise in a bus; just pointing out the facts as they are. I also would tel people to temper their expectations for launch games, so as to be pleasantly suprised.

Real next gen is still 12-18 months away most likely, as cross platform gets left in the dust.
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post #7742 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

And let's not throw stones in glass Capcom houses. DR3 was first shown on PC as well, and when it moved to XBone dev kits the framerates have dropped into the teens-single digits with 2 months to launch.
Fortunately, they've since shown a newer build running on production hardware at 30fps, before they even start their optimization pass ... but yeah, CAPCOM is all you have to say on that. Always temper your expectations accordingly.
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Real next gen is still 12-18 months away most likely, as cross platform gets left in the dust.
^ THIS. All day long. Not that the launch stuff won't be pretty sweet, but... we aren't going to start seeing next-gen games hit their stride for at least a year. I don't even think your average gamer will see a viable reason to step up to next-gen until Q1 of 2014 when Titanfall and Infamous: Second Son drop unless the overall experience of each system is a vast improvement that captures people's attention.

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post #7743 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 09:37 AM
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We already know the answer to that question though, they've both given more than enough detail in their various architecture presentations.

Both are completely offloading file, video and audio decompression, video encoding, and file decryption. MS has SHAPE to handle most audio tasks that are typically processed on the CPU. Both have video scalers, but the MS one is better designed to handle multiple images at once. I'll assume every scrap of kinect functionality is offloaded as well, and last I've heard both dedicate two CPU cores to OS/system level functions.

I wouldn't call MS's system more balanced, it's just better designed to do multiple things at once. That's why it needs a fancy video scaler/compositor and shape in the first place. I'm sure it'll have a much smoother multitasking experience than the PS4, even with more going on at the same time. It's specifically designed for that purpose.

Even with more going on, I can believe that they'll end up with more spare CPU time due to shape....but that's not going to help close the GPU gap in any meaningful way.

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post #7744 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 09:51 AM
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"Sony is not a competitor."

Sony is not a competitor?

Ha.

Haha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahhahahhhaaahhhahahahhahhahhahahhahhahahahhaha!
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post #7745 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 10:03 AM
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Not really... Microsoft's Hot Chips presentation leaves a lot of unanswered questions, and they've been dodgy about what the other processors are dedicated to, even with people who were at the conference. Sony has been quite a bit more open, but there are still things we don't know and likely won't unless we got to see the white papers that devs do. Yes, we know that compression, video, encryption, etc. are all being wisely off-loaded... but there are still many things to discover on both systems. But even with the knowledge we do have, it's clear that Sony's tactic was to go full-tilt brute force with all the usual related speedbumps, while Microsoft is trying to optimize more for efficiency so that those speedbumps aren't there.

I hate making car analogies (because God knows this thread has been rife with them), but it's like you have one car with a bigger engine with more raw horsepower and then another car with a slightly smaller engine that is tuned for more efficient fuel/air mix to eke out more performance. The bigger engine gets the bragging rights... but both cars may come off the line at the same speed regardless. That's pretty much the way I see these two systems. They're both gonna be about the same at the quarter mile, be a crapshoot in a road race depending on how someone drives each, but each find their own strengths at individual events (the exclusives). And both will have their fans. I'm excited for both!

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post #7746 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

"Sony is not a competitor."

Sony is not a competitor?

Ha.

Haha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahhahahhhaaahhhahahahhahhahhahahhahhahahahhaha!
If you're talking entertainment wise, they may actually be right on that. Sony's entertainment division is floundering, though I do like what they're trying to do with it on PS4. It just won't be quite as robust as some of what Microsoft is trying to do as far as owning your living room goes, so in that aspect, Microsoft may have a point. I know that irks hardcore gamers who want next-gen to be all about games... but let's face it, that market doesn't exist anymore. It hasn't been since things like Netflix streaming and motion gaming hit consoles. Just sayin'... They may be competitors in the limited scope of gaming console wars, but we'll see how the rest of the related functions shake down.
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post #7747 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

I hate making car analogies (because God knows this thread has been rife with them), but it's like you have one car with a bigger engine with more raw horsepower and then another car with a slightly smaller engine that is tuned for more efficient fuel/air mix to eke out more performance. The bigger engine gets the bragging rights... but both cars may come off the line at the same speed regardless. That's pretty much the way I see these two systems. They're both gonna be about the same at the quarter mile, be a crapshoot in a road race depending on how someone drives each, but each find their own strengths at individual events (the exclusives). And both will have their fans. I'm excited for both!
It's even more than that. There are parasitic power losses in a drive line and some transmissions are more efficient than others at putting power to the wheels. Gearing of differentials and transmissions change the efficiency of power output under a variety of operating conditions. You can't always say 400 HP is better than 300 HP because it completely disregards torque, gear ratios, efficiency, peak power etc. In essence, fixating on one number in a coordinated system is a one dimensional argument. The GPU in one of these systems could be capable of a petaflop and it wouldn't do a bit of good because the system would bottleneck elsewhere before achieving that theoretical figure.
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post #7748 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

Part of the problem is MS says some over the top statements and then does the opposite of what they say like
"Sony is not a competitor"
and more recently
"Specs do not matter"
but then spend time talking about specs??

if they wouldn't go so far to one end or another it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but you look like an internet fanboy with over-the-top statements like that, that obviously aren't true..

ding ding ding.. we have a winner in this whole back and forth bickering. Sorry to say but MS is doing it all to themselves..

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post #7749 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 11:00 AM
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Sony and Microsoft are competitors, and they are not competitors.

They are competitors in the sense that if you expect Microsoft to just say "hey our console's gpu is 50% less powerful than the other guy's"--that's something marketing/PR would never allow. It's also why they said if you can't go online, you can still get a 360. They will never promote a "competitor's" product over one of their own.

They aren't competitors because they aren't competing in the sense that it's one or the other...relatively speaking. Sure, people claim that some people can only afford one console, but for most of the people debating the topic, that's not the case and we all know it. People might not be able to buy both at the same time, but if a generation lasts many years, then that argument goes out the window. So then these companies aren't competing against each other, instead their goal is to get our attention by offering a new or better experience than we've had before, at a price we are able to pay...and that's all I'm looking for, a reason to buy the console--something cool or gimmicky that interests me.

If games were like Blu-Rays or DVDs, then these consoles would be "more" direct competitors...like Blu-Ray players.

thread closed
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post #7750 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

You mean the CGI target render was created on a top end dev PC? rolleyes.gif Because, you know, Sony would never do anything like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqSjfhXpnbM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko9xC6TMdiw

Oh wait, they're guilty of doing it before the PS3 launched!

Here's a recent trailer for Deep Down. It's posted with comments disabled and I can't read Japanese. It looks a little more plausible in this video but it still looks like a GPU tech demo and not much actual gameplay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psw07YbY70U

Some actual Deep Down gameplay here. Wish it were direct feed. It is a Capcom game, not Sony. Though it was mentioned as being PS4 exclusive, who really knows what that means or if true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaVl1atbUDc
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post #7751 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 11:16 AM
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Some actual Deep Down gameplay here. Wish it were direct feed. It is a Capcom game, not Sony. Though it was mentioned as being PS4 exclusive, who really knows what that means or if true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaVl1atbUDc
Now that actually looks plausible and it appears to have some frame rate issues as well. Still, this doesn't let Sony off the hook for what they've presented earlier. Sony has a history of peddling vaporware, let's not forget "Crazy Ken" from last generation. There were all manner of wild claims made by Sony regarding the PS3. Of course, Microsoft also said things like "free 4xAA" and, well, that turned out to be patently false. I think some of you are buying into propaganda hook, line and sinker and that is exactly what both sides want you to do. Both consoles ended up pretty close but if we were to take the pre-release propaganda at face value that wouldn't have been clear. The PS3 looked better on paper but that potential, if it was even true, never fully materialized.
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post #7752 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

Some actual Deep Down gameplay here. Wish it were direct feed. It is a Capcom game, not Sony. Though it was mentioned as being PS4 exclusive, who really knows what that means or if true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaVl1atbUDc

Well if you like Dark Souls (like I did) you will be right at home. Still need a direct feed, but there is nothing jaw dropping in that video as of now. Hope I am wrong. The slain bodies act like dark souls' bodies also, rag dolling around on the floor under your feet. Good times.

PS: I understand that is a video of a game being played, I look forward to direct feed. Thinks for the post, that helps me see that it might be more hype as of now. TGS is gonna be interesting.
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post #7753 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

Now that actually looks plausible and it appears to have some frame rate issues as well. Still, this doesn't let Sony off the hook for what they've presented earlier. Sony has a history of peddling vaporware, let's not forget "Crazy Ken" from last generation. There were all manner of wild claims made by Sony regarding the PS3. Of course, Microsoft also said things like "free 4xAA" and, well, that turned out to be patently false. I think some of you are buying into propaganda hook, line and sinker and that is exactly what both sides want you to do. Both consoles ended up pretty close but if we were to take the pre-release propaganda at face value that wouldn't have been clear. The PS3 looked better on paper but that potential, if it was even true, never fully materialized.

Sony and MS say many things, like MS's claims of Toy Story 2 graphics. Both sides have released bullshots and CGI videos. As mentioned earlier games shown aren't always console versions either. Look at Watch Dogs, sadly the latest videos do not look nearly as good as its initial reveal. Of course it isn't released, so we just have to wait and see how it pans out.
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post #7754 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

Sony and MS say many things, like MS's claims of Toy Story 2 graphics.
Which, of course, is an absurd claim. You're preaching to the choir, though. Read my quote again. I never said Microsoft was exempt from the criticism, in fact I provided an example. I think Sony took a bit more artistic license with their claims, however.
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post #7755 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 11:38 AM
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Which, of course, is an absurd claim. You're preaching to the choir, though. Read my quote again. I never said Microsoft was exempt from the criticism, in fact I provided an example. I think Sony took a bit more artistic license with their claims, however.

Well your response was to Capcom game wink.gif Many companies do it. I couldn't say who does it more as there are tons of examples on both sides. Makes me wish they were making a new Motorstorm game instead of that Drive Club game frown.gif
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post #7756 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 11:41 AM
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i'm still waiting for that "next gen madden" game that they showed in 2006!
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post #7757 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 11:46 AM
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LOL, yes that was one of the best ones!
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post #7758 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 11:50 AM
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LOL, yes that was one of the best ones!
'
Yes, also totally absurd!
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post #7759 of 16880 Old 09-10-2013, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

If you're talking entertainment wise, they may actually be right on that. Sony's entertainment division is floundering, though I do like what they're trying to do with it on PS4. It just won't be quite as robust as some of what Microsoft is trying to do as far as owning your living room goes, so in that aspect, Microsoft may have a point. I know that irks hardcore gamers who want next-gen to be all about games... but let's face it, that market doesn't exist anymore. It hasn't been since things like Netflix streaming and motion gaming hit consoles. Just sayin'... They may be competitors in the limited scope of gaming console wars, but we'll see how the rest of the related functions shake down.

They are absolutely competitors.
They compete for space in the living room-- they both make boxes that play games, stream media, play discs, access the Internet and social media, sell advertising. They are absolutely, positively competitors. You know who else is a competitor in this space? Nintendo. No matter what Nintendo claims they ARE competing with Xbox and playstation and their stubborn refusal to admit that they are, in fact, competitors is a very large factor in the current failure of the WiiU.

To add a whole hell of a lot of confusion on this matter: Sony just announced the Vita TV in Japan. It's essentially a vita 'console' with a dual shock 3 that plays most* vita games and has web and streaming capabilities (Netflix, Hulu, et al). Talk about muddying the waters... But that's a discussion for another forum.

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post #7760 of 16880 Old 09-11-2013, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

Some actual Deep Down gameplay here. Wish it were direct feed. It is a Capcom game, not Sony. Though it was mentioned as being PS4 exclusive, who really knows what that means or if true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaVl1atbUDc
While it may be PS4 exclusive the bad part is it may not even see the light of day in the west.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/08/01/deep-down-is-an-online-rpg-western-release-under-discussion/

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post #7761 of 16880 Old 09-11-2013, 09:27 AM
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Penello and Major Nelson are now on Neogaf trying to do damage control and PR ("setting the record straight"). It's not going well, and I really do hope they stop before it gets bad...

Leave the PR to the PR teams and just do your job as community managers. Neogif is not going to take kindly to direct feed BS. Especially when there's active developers as part of the community that will make you look the fool if you don't know what you're talking about, and just using a PR cheat sheet.

Take my advice.


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Care to explain how you are more of an authority than Penello? I'm curious. I mean, if you say he's wrong you can't just use a hand waving argument to prove it.

Oh SNAP!!!!

Albert is getting his SWAGGER back!

Lets go to Twitter land to see the recent events:

Some dude (@SasukeKirai) tells Phil Spencer at Microsoft to (and I paraphrase): Put a muzzle on Albert Penello cause he is shaming himself/company (not sure authors specific meaning due to bumps in wording).

6 hours later...Phil Spencer(@XboxPE) responds: "You can't muzzle the @albertpenello"

2 hours later...Albert Penello(@albertpenello) (our favorite face of the Xbox One) responds with "not believing me is not the same thing as me being wrong" and he added a super smile.gif for good measure!!!

BOOM!

Albert Penello has his SWAGGER back!

PS: not sure this means anything wink.gif , but the thread got sidetracked with a Dark Souls ripoff that looks like (add curse word). Thus, I am just throwing red meat into the center of the room. LET'S GO!!!
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post #7762 of 16880 Old 09-11-2013, 09:33 AM
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Woah, woah, simmer down, sir! eek.gif
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post #7763 of 16880 Old 09-11-2013, 09:38 AM
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Woah, woah, simmer down, sir! eek.gif

haha

Believe!!! smile.gif
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post #7764 of 16880 Old 09-11-2013, 09:48 AM
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LOL, of course the u-turns haven't hurt you. Sticking with your initial E3 plans would have hurt you.

Full article at link:

http://www.oxm.co.uk/62127/xbox-one-u-turns-havent-hurt-us-insists-microsoft-we-are-genuinely-in-an-enviable-position/

Xbox One U-turns haven't hurt us, insists Microsoft - "we are genuinely in an enviable position"
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post #7765 of 16880 Old 09-11-2013, 09:51 AM
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LOL, of course the u-turns haven't hurt you. Sticking with your initial E3 plans would have hurt you.

Full article at link:

http://www.oxm.co.uk/62127/xbox-one-u-turns-havent-hurt-us-insists-microsoft-we-are-genuinely-in-an-enviable-position/

Xbox One U-turns haven't hurt us, insists Microsoft - "we are genuinely in an enviable position"

no doubt.. myself and numerous others would have never bought xb1 if they didn't u turn..
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post #7766 of 16880 Old 09-11-2013, 10:06 AM
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At this point the only two things that Microsoft has going for it to earn my hard-earned dollars are: titanfall and cloud servers and the equality/security that implies.

Xbox has always had a top shelf online product and I expect that to continue. Everything else that box does/doesn't do is just noise to me-- including that stupid kinect sensor which I won't even be hooking up.
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post #7768 of 16880 Old 09-11-2013, 10:28 AM
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At this point the only two things that Microsoft has going for it to earn my hard-earned dollars are: titanfall and cloud servers and the equality/security that implies.

Xbox has always had a top shelf online product and I expect that to continue. Everything else that box does/doesn't do is just noise to me-- including that stupid kinect sensor which I won't even be hooking up.

couldn't agree more..
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Originally Posted by Dr.Savage View Post

http://www.arabicgamers.com/news/2708/forza-dev-you-cant-talk-power-unless-youre-informed

"super informed"!

Powa of da Clowd!

Believe!!! smile.gif

Sure, there are a lot of misinformed or tech ignorant people out there. There's also the case of what tech you're using.

Forza is using last gen tech, and dialing it up to 11 and getting really impressive results because it's much more efficient on betetr hardware, and you can add more bells and whistles. Then you have a game like Driveclub that is implementing next gen technology like global illumination lighting (fully dynamic) and it's still on the path trying to get 60FPS out of it / maybe not as impressive subjectively.

The later might pay off more in the long run as it's refined and used in more interesting games, but the former is probably much better for launch. Still, that doesn't mean the XBone is more powerful (can it do GI?). It also is questionable if it even matters though, until a killer app game is released where the technology is integral.

COD has been riding that pony since early last Gen, and they're a 3 billion dollar franchise and don;t appear to be slowing down into next gen with their unremarkable COD engine.
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post #7770 of 16880 Old 09-11-2013, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Sure, there are a lot of misinformed or tech ignorant people out there. There's also the case of what tech you're using.

Forza is using last gen tech, and dialing it up to 11 and getting really impressive results because it's much more efficient on betetr hardware, and you can add more bells and whistles. Then you have a game like Driveclub that is implementing next gen technology like global illumination lighting (fully dynamic) and it's still on the path trying to get 60FPS out of it / maybe not as impressive subjectively.

The later might pay off more in the long run as it's refined and used in more interesting games, but the former is probably much better for launch. Still, that doesn't mean the XBone is more powerful (can it do GI?). It also is questionable if it even matters though, until a killer app game is released where the technology is integral.

COD has been riding that pony since early last Gen, and they're a 3 billion dollar franchise and don;t appear to be slowing down into next gen with their unremarkable COD engine.

That's one of the things I wonder about. Some of the stuff I read I think "really, you are going to waste resources doing that? Who cares? Ditch that and get the frame rate up or improve other areas" And that's exactly how I felt when I read about the Drive Club developers talking about Atmospheric density.

"There is a hell of a lot going on," he told OPM. "Increased visual fidelity does cost, there's no argument about it. The PlayStation 4 is very capable of doing both but we've gone for a fully dynamic environment, so you can go any time of day, anywhere on the planet, and it'll calculate the atmospheric density, whether you're up the top of a mountain or at sea level."
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