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post #8551 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 11:38 AM
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How does resolution changes relate to reliability of the hardware? So is it saying that if you go 1080p it will fry? Does MS have to test every game then? Seems like it would be a weird process to authenticate your game.

"laims that the Xbox One is having reliability issues, hence why most major releases have been downscaled from 1080p to 900p. "

Does this neogif poster have a 100% reliability on previous predictions?
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post #8552 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 11:54 AM
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did you guys see this?
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post #8553 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

It was never an official bundle.

http://kotaku.com/ubisoft-has-no-answer-for-fate-of-watch-dogs-ps4-xbox-o-1445675601

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post #8554 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

That sucks for Watchdogs, but I am pretty sure The Crew was slated for a 2014 release anyways so nothing new there.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/watch-dogs-the-crew-delayed-until-at-least-april-2014


The Crew went from early 2014 to later in 2014.

In a conference call this morning, Ubisoft said it expects Watch Dogs to be released in the first quarter of its fiscal year (between April 1 and June 30, 2014) and The Crew to be released in the second quarter (between July 1 and September 30, 2014).

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post #8555 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 01:27 PM
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I'm pretty sure mboojigga was referring that it's not an official Microsoft-Ubisoft bundle. This is an Xbox forum. Whatever problems Gamestop because of Ubisoft's delay is their own problems.
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post #8556 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

How does resolution changes relate to reliability of the hardware? So is it saying that if you go 1080p it will fry? Does MS have to test every game then? Seems like it would be a weird process to authenticate your game.

"laims that the Xbox One is having reliability issues, hence why most major releases have been downscaled from 1080p to 900p. "

Does this neogif poster have a 100% reliability on previous predictions?

I am no computer geek (no offense to anyone that is) but it takes more power to run games at 1080P as opposed to 900P which in turn causes the GPU to work harder which in turns creates heat which in turn can cause other components to fail due to thermal breakdown. Running games at 900P keeps the temps down and in turn there is less chance of other components being affected.

Maybe not the mot precise explanation but hopefully that get the point across.
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post #8557 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

I am no computer geek (no offense to anyone that is) but it takes more power to run games at 1080P as opposed to 900P which in turn causes the GPU to work harder which in turns creates heat which in turn can cause other components to fail due to thermal breakdown. Running games at 900P keeps the temps down and in turn there is less chance of other components being affected.

Maybe not the mot precise explanation but hopefully that get the point across.

Ok, thanks. So does that mean when games aren't running smoothly (uneven framerates, screen tearing, etc) that they are working it too hard as well or is that due to other issues? It would seem a lot of games this gen are working systems too hard.
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post #8558 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

I'm pretty sure mboojigga was referring that it's not an official Microsoft-Ubisoft bundle. This is an Xbox forum. Whatever problems Gamestop because of Ubisoft's delay is their own problems.

Regardless of whose official bundle it is, you wouldn't be concerned if you had the Xbox One bundle pre-ordered at Gamestop? I definitely would be. I would imagine they will just sell the Xbox One without the game but until I heard them announce that, I would be checking with them fairly often to find out.

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post #8559 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

I am no computer geek (no offense to anyone that is) but it takes more power to run games at 1080P as opposed to 900P which in turn causes the GPU to work harder which in turns creates heat which in turn can cause other components to fail due to thermal breakdown. Running games at 900P keeps the temps down and in turn there is less chance of other components being affected.

Maybe not the mot precise explanation but hopefully that get the point across.

It won't make a temp difference if it's running at a higher frame rate or with more effects. The GPU is still working just as hard in either case. Possibly even harder at 900p....if running at 1080p caused them to drop too many frames, the GPU would get to rest a bit during the frame skip, assuming they're vsynced.

Either way too many variables to make a blanket statement like that, but drawing any conclusion about reliability from a game's resolution is just silly.

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post #8560 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 02:16 PM
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how much power used or heat generated is not a function of resolution. it's a function of processor design and clock frequency.

when you run a program, you are sending a set of instructions to be executed. based on how fast or slow your processor is, these instructions get executed faster or slower. imagine you ask the processor to add 5 + 7. 5+7 is going to get executed to spit out a result of 12. it does not generate less heat than executing 10+12. If you give a processor a set of complex statements, it'll run at the max speed of the processor and is dependent on how fast the processor is.

You give a GPU a complex game or a simple game, the GPU will still trying to calculate it as fast as possible, at as close to 100% utilization as possible which you see on the screen as a low frame rate or a high frame rate. Go change your PC resolution on a game to 320x200 versus 2560x1440. The framerate for the 320x200 resolution will be insane but I can pretty much guarantee that the power used by the GPU is the same as for the 2560x1440 resolution.

the GPU is not working harder when you run at 1080p versus 900p. What will happen is it will take longer to execute those instructions which is reflected through lower frame rates. Now, in order to "lock" a desired framerate, then you do various optimizations (shortcuts) in order keep that framerate. But no programmer is programming code according to temperature generated. Now, if Ryse was getting mid 20s framerate, of course, you're going to have to lower the resolution to get it to the target goal of 30. In the case of Ryse, they wanted more complex graphics so rather than deal with lower framerates to have more complex graphics, they lowered the resolution.

this CBOAT statement (as most of his statements) is bogus and getting way too much play. It's very convenient that he's using the Ryse situation and trying to extrapolate that into a story.
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post #8561 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 02:20 PM
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post #8562 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrtledog View Post

Regardless of whose official bundle it is, you wouldn't be concerned if you had the Xbox One bundle pre-ordered at Gamestop? I definitely would be. I would imagine they will just sell the Xbox One without the game but until I heard them announce that, I would be checking with them fairly often to find out.

yeah, but who cares except for those people affected? I don't worry about peanut allergies unless it affects me or those around me. If you are affected by the loss of Watch Dogs, then figure out whether you're okay with a voucher, a game substitution, or cancellation of the preorder. I can't imagine many people being affected by the Gamestop deal. They create these bundling deals to get more money out of the limited supply that they have. If you only have 100 consoles to sell, why not start bundling games with them to get more money?
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post #8563 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

It won't make a temp difference if it's running at a higher frame rate or with more effects. The GPU is still working just as hard in either case. Possibly even harder at 900p....if running at 1080p caused them to drop too many frames, the GPU would get to rest a bit during the frame skip, assuming they're vsynced.

Either way too many variables to make a blanket statement like that, but drawing any conclusion about reliability from a game's resolution is just silly.

Then I stand corrected, that is just how I always understood it the way it was described to me.

Told you guys I was no computer geek. biggrin.gif
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post #8564 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

how much power used or heat generated is not a function of resolution. it's a function of processor design and clock frequency.

when you run a program, you are sending a set of instructions to be executed. based on how fast or slow your processor is, these instructions get executed faster or slower. imagine you ask the processor to add 5 + 7. 5+7 is going to get executed to spit out a result of 12. it does not generate less heat than executing 10+12. If you give a processor a set of complex statements, it'll run at the max speed of the processor and is dependent on how fast the processor is.

You give a GPU a complex game or a simple game, the GPU will still trying to calculate it as fast as possible, at as close to 100% utilization as possible which you see on the screen as a low frame rate or a high frame rate. Go change your PC resolution on a game to 320x200 versus 2560x1440. The framerate for the 320x200 resolution will be insane but I can pretty much guarantee that the power used by the GPU is the same as for the 2560x1440 resolution.

the GPU is not working harder when you run at 1080p versus 900p. What will happen is it will take longer to execute those instructions which is reflected through lower frame rates. Now, in order to "lock" a desired framerate, then you do various optimizations (shortcuts) in order keep that framerate. But no programmer is programming code according to temperature generated. Now, if Ryse was getting mid 20s framerate, of course, you're going to have to lower the resolution to get it to the target goal of 30. In the case of Ryse, they wanted more complex graphics so rather than deal with lower framerates to have more complex graphics, they lowered the resolution.

this CBOAT statement (as most of his statements) is bogus and getting way too much play. It's very convenient that he's using the Ryse situation and trying to extrapolate that into a story.

Thanks for that explanation sublime. That makes a lot more sense than any other way it was explained to me.
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post #8565 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 03:25 PM
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There was a long article from a high up Xbox One guy who said they designed the system to be as flexible as possible for the developers and that they did not want to mandate 1080p so that developers could do whatever their game needed to make it play the best.
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post #8566 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

More new videos:

Xbox Live Compute, Smartglass, Kinect and More (Click to show)

Racing Accessories for Xbox One (Click to show)
[/quote}

Thanks for posting I think both those videos answered a lot of questions and clarified what should honestly had been expected with the accessories on a new system and why compaitibility shouldn't really be expected from a previous gen system. Why would you want to basically gimp your experience with a prior gen version of a wheel and not take advanatage of what was built into the new ones?

The 5.0 is here
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post #8567 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Smigro View Post


Then I stand corrected, that is just how I always understood it the way it was described to me.

Told you guys I was no computer geek. biggrin.gif

 

Yeah, I can see where the confusion comes from.  All things being equal, it takes more GPU power to push 1080p than 900p...but the X1 GPU is what it is. They chose 900p so they could output "higher quality pixels" instead of more pixels.


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post #8568 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 05:58 PM
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probably as definitive as you can get...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=86164933

So one of the requirements I had for doing this video is I wanted to speak accurately and factually. I’m not sure how you can say there was marketing spin in this. I wanted to tie all of this back to actual features.

I talked about the tangible benefits of “the cloud”: Save games, roaming profiles, content re-download.
I talked about the future-stated benefits of cloud rendering, and never made any outrageous claims about it.

When I talked about Smartglass, I talked about real features, and game implementation.

I’m not sure you could claim any of these as being speculative or sensationalist.

Also to be clear. One of the benefits of publishing games on Xbox One – ALL game developers get Dedicated Servers, Cloud Processing, and “storage” (for save games) free.

If you want to do dedicated servers on other platforms, you have to prop them yourself. But on Xbox One, while developers can choose to use their own methods, we make it available to everyone.

There should be no confusion on this point. We do not charge developers for Dedicated Servers.


EDIT: I'm referring to Multi-Player games here. I assumed that in the post, but someone on twitter asked about single-player.


and here was his previous tweet:

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post #8569 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

I think both those videos answered a lot of questions and clarified what should honestly had been expected with the accessories on a new system and why compaitibility shouldn't really be expected from a previous gen system. Why would you want to basically gimp your experience with a prior gen version of a wheel and not take advanatage of what was built into the new ones?

There are more than a few people who are pissed off that the racing wheel set up that they spent three or four hundred dollars for won't work on their new console. That Thrustmaster wheel-and-pedal set goes for $400 and that Mad Catz wheel set is likely to cost something similar.

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post #8570 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

probably as definitive as you can get...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=86164933

So one of the requirements I had for doing this video is I wanted to speak accurately and factually. I’m not sure how you can say there was marketing spin in this. I wanted to tie all of this back to actual features.

I talked about the tangible benefits of “the cloud”: Save games, roaming profiles, content re-download.
I talked about the future-stated benefits of cloud rendering, and never made any outrageous claims about it.

When I talked about Smartglass, I talked about real features, and game implementation.

I’m not sure you could claim any of these as being speculative or sensationalist.

Also to be clear. One of the benefits of publishing games on Xbox One – ALL game developers get Dedicated Servers, Cloud Processing, and “storage” (for save games) free.

If you want to do dedicated servers on other platforms, you have to prop them yourself. But on Xbox One, while developers can choose to use their own methods, we make it available to everyone.

There should be no confusion on this point. We do not charge developers for Dedicated Servers.


EDIT: I'm referring to Multi-Player games here. I assumed that in the post, but someone on twitter asked about single-player.


and here was his previous tweet:

 

I'm not convinced this isnt careful wordplay...I distinctly recall the Titanfall devs saying that the servers weren't free to use. He could just be saying that they're "available for free", meaning that devs don't have to physically build and maintain them themselves, but there's still a fee to use them. It just seems unbelievable that they're offering essentially unlimited resources that cost millions of dollars to build and maintain, and they're not charging a dime, no strings attached. It doesn't pass the smell test. The "free" has to run out at some point. 


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post #8571 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 06:36 PM
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I don't remember which recent video (the multiplayer one?), but they talked about how the game saves are seamless now. No more picking a storage device. wonder how this'll work. if it'll be kind of like the 360/cloud saves where you have a local copy (in case the internet goes down) and a synced cloud copy except for the fact that now you can no longer choose the storage device.

but yeah, loving the recent news. the dashboard startup. launch is almost here! biggrin.gif
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post #8572 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

I don't remember which recent video (the multiplayer one?), but they talked about how the game saves are seamless now. No more picking a storage device. wonder how this'll work. if it'll be kind of like the 360/cloud saves where you have a local copy (in case the internet goes down) and a synced cloud copy except for the fact that now you can no longer choose the storage device.

but yeah, loving the recent news. the dashboard startup. launch is almost here! biggrin.gif

 

They'll need some sort of local cache, operating completely remotely would be too slow and unreliable. But yeah...it's going to be great to never have to worry about saves again.  


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post #8573 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

...and they're not charging a dime, no strings attached. It doesn't pass the smell test. The "free" has to run out at some point. 

XBL Gold membership fees have got to be in the billions of dollars per year. If they can say "all multiplayer Xbox One games run on dedicated servers" it will be a huge selling point in the One's favor versus PS4. It's possibly worth the investment. If they start out free I don't see how they can pull the plug without tremendous market backlash.

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post #8574 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 07:19 PM
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XBL Gold membership fees have got to be in the billions of dollars per year. If they can say "all multiplayer Xbox One games run on dedicated servers" it will be a huge selling point in the One's favor versus PS4. It's possibly worth the investment. If they start out free I don't see how they can pull the plug without tremendous market backlash.

 

I think most likely they give devs a certain amount of storage space/server time for free. Enough that a small game could get by on the free services entirely, but I highly doubt they're about to entirely fully eat the costs for something like titanfall or call of duty. If they do go that far, don't be surprised when the cost for XBL gold goes up dramatically....there's no free lunch, ultimately we're footing the bill one way or another.


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post #8575 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I think most likely they give devs a certain amount of storage space/server time for free. Enough that a small game could get by on the free services entirely, but I highly doubt they're about to entirely fully eat the costs for something like titanfall or call of duty. If they do go that far, don't be surprised when the cost for XBL gold goes up dramatically....there's no free lunch, ultimately we're footing the bill one way or another.

How is this any different than any other service that increases in popularity and expansion? It took 8 years for the first increase for Live to go $10 higher and the funny thing is, I only pay between only 30-40 a year for the service. It shouldn't be a surprise or anymore shocking if Live increase than seeing that PSN is now required for multiplayer.

The 5.0 is here
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post #8576 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 07:48 PM
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How is this any different than any other service that increases in popularity and expansion? It took 8 years for the first increase for Live to go $10 higher and the funny thing is, I only pay between only 30-40 a year for the service. It shouldn't be a surprise or anymore shocking if Live increase than seeing that PSN is now required for multiplayer.

 

I'm just saying....it's cause and effect.  Those servers aren't free to run.  Either we pay for them through increased prices for the game, DLC, microtransactions or XBL/PSN.  Otherwise we should expect a poor level of service out of them, slow speeds and constant outages. 

 

I'd personally rather see the game justify it's server costs with a sane business model, rather than being subsidized by every XBL user. I don't have cable because I don't want to pay $100 a month for a zillion channels when I only want three of them. Likewise, I don't want to pay $20 a month for XBL to support servers for games I have no interest in playing.    


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post #8577 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Likewise, I don't want to pay $20 a month for XBL to support servers for games I have no interest in playing.    
how did we go from $35-60/year for XBL to $240/year??? O_o
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post #8578 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 08:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

How does resolution changes relate to reliability of the hardware? So is it saying that if you go 1080p it will fry? Does MS have to test every game then? Seems like it would be a weird process to authenticate your game.

"laims that the Xbox One is having reliability issues, hence why most major releases have been downscaled from 1080p to 900p. "

Does this neogif poster have a 100% reliability on previous predictions?

95%, but I'm not buying this one (or it was miscommunication). If he's saying don't expect another clock bump due to reliability issues, it makes sense. If overhead wasn't already allocated in at time of launch, there's no way to do so without frying some peoples systems just due to probability that you'd exceed the silicons tolerances for some number of systems. It's similar to how the same Intel CPU can be overclocked a crazy amount for one person with no issues, but will turn unstable for another rather quickly. Chips are rated for a class and set for a specific speed, but have different upper tolerances depending on how well the fab process ended up for their batch.

That said I don't see reliability issues unless they're using chips already right up against their tolerances, or there some kind of defect in the manufacturing process. These systems are relatively low watt and will won't be putting out much heat even at load. On top of that the XBone is a very spacious design with a monster fan / heatsink.

720P/900P is probably due to the RAM setup/design, issues with a rushed API, and simply the specs of the consoles. No one should be surprised, especially after the reveal revealed their focus on everything and gaming. Resources and the design of the system were allocated to things besides gaming as a choice from the start.
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Originally Posted by Jonny5nz View Post

There was a long article from a high up Xbox One guy who said they designed the system to be as flexible as possible for the developers and that they did not want to mandate 1080p so that developers could do whatever their game needed to make it play the best.

I don't think anyone has mandated either framerate or resolution yet. There's just pressure from gamers who want a TrueHD after being promised and under-delivered on it last time around. Don't forget, 1080P gaming has been around for a decade+ over on PC. It really should be standard now with HDTV's universally supporting it, and cost effective hardware being up for the task.
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post #8579 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 08:58 PM
 
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Good...there's too many damn games coming out in November.

I've been reading and been told there's nothing worthwhile coming out in November+, and that these launches are terrible.

I'm pretty sure I don't smoke crack, but listening to others has me wondering. Seems to me both 1st and 3rd party Dev's are sprinting into next gen this time without missing a beat. Both consoles already have over 100 games in development and that was going back a few months ago.
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post #8580 of 16214 Old 10-15-2013, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Don't forget, 1080P gaming has been around for a decade+ over on PC. It really should be standard now with HDTV's universally supporting it, and cost effective hardware being up for the task.

let's bring this back to reality....

in 2003, they were testing games like Quake III Arena, Jedi Knight II, and Unreal Tournament 2003 with graphics far simpler than today and resolutions less than 1080p. Most PC gamers were gaming around 1024x768 on VGA monitors. I know the point you were trying to make but you don't need to massively exaggerate to make the point.
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