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post #9091 of 16456 Old 11-01-2013, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Sorax View Post

I understand your point Outcast I just don't see the differences in gpus taken at the scale of a generation adding up to much of anything. With either console we're looking at something approximating a HD7850. I think the real story here is that both consoles' graphic prowess will look very underpowered in a year or two. Which isn't any different than previous generations. If your only concern is graphics, PC gaming is the only way to go.

The XboxOne having a special UI, supported by solid infrastructure and the world's largest software company, means much more to the user experience then the gpu. It's clear from their resource reservations that Microsoft prioritized a consistently snappy interface. And for this, I am very thankful.

You have to be careful about the whole user experience being more important, as you are forgetting that the Xbox One is trying to split the market so to speak between gamers and those that want an "entertainment" console. Again, you are happy, as are many people on AVS for the "entertainment" aspect, but again, if you can't provide a solid gaming environment, your going to lose a LARGE audience of gamers, as well as developers who may not want to develop for an "entertainment" machine, especially when gamers may start to shift to the PS4. It was gamers who made the Xbox what it is, and they can do the same for the PS4 and kill the Xbox One during it's lifecycle.

Yes, this is all speculation, but so far you do a google (or BING) and you'll see that the rumours already, and yes they are rumours, have that Titanfall may be in 720p. Can you imagine if that happens. Gamers will not want a technologically sup-par experience and personally I think this would spell disaster for the gaming side of things, which is a HUGE audience....the Xbox One will not survive without gamers.....period.

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post #9092 of 16456 Old 11-01-2013, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by The Outcast View Post

YGamers will not want a technologically sup-par experience and personally I think this would spell disaster for the gaming side of things, which is a HUGE audience....the Xbox One will not survive without gamers.....period.

Without gamers, no, but without "gamers who won't settle for wonderfully fun, perfectly beautiful 720p games"? ("Okay, the game looks great and plays great but it's only 720p? Screw that!"). I think that it might do just fine without sad little nerds like that, though they'd really like to think that they're more important to the industry than they are rolleyes.gif.

Ultimate eye-candy is not the be all and end all of gaming. One of the most popular gaming properties on the market today is frickin' Minecraft (I will never, ever understand). As long as it has great exclusives it shouldn't matter what resolution they run at. Obviously the spec whores are better served by the PS4 or, better yet, high end PC rigs.

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post #9093 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 12:28 AM
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I still don't think it's just about resolution, but that being said, and as I have said in the past, it's supposed to be their NEXT-GEN machine, that's what they said, but it can't even run the COD Engine, which isn't new, at 1080p. That and it's running another 3rd party game at less resolution. They promised the next level of gaming, but its running games in resolutions at the same level of an 8 year old machine. That is what is concerning people.

In regards to your last sentence, many of us here want that, but there are so many other gamers that just want to game, and there lies the risk that MS has taken. Is their machine in the long run too weak to provide the same "gaming" experiences that their competitor is going to provide? We don't have that answer yet, but the launch data on only two games is not encouraging at this point for many.

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I think the misconception people seem to have is when they see that Xbox One is running a game at 720p, they ask "At that point, why not just play on 360?" as if resolution was the only thing these next-gen systems get us. It ignores the increase in RAM, the better and more varied textures resulting from that, the better shaders, the better effects, etc. There's so much more to be gained than just pixel count here, so the notion that resolution is this uber-important metric is odd to me. Not saying that IW shouldn't have been able to get their ages-old rehashed engine up to speed, because they should have... but given how hot drivers are coming in at launch to developers, it being a launch title, and them having to launch the game on 5 platforms in a 2 week period, is ANYONE really surprised that they couldn't put enough work into it to get it up to par? I mean... I love me some CoD, but graphical innovators they ain't.

The resolution situation will change as Microsoft locks down drivers and dev tools and as devs can better learn the optimal way to code for Xbox One's more complicated architecture. You either believe that or you don't. If you don't... wait launch out and see if that's the case before you roll the bones. I'm still in because all this pixel-counting ****-measuring aside, the games look fantastic to me. And the other advantages that Microsoft are bringing to the table, much as with last generation, are the more interesting metric... and where I see a far more tangible change in the way I PLAY GAMES. And before we all forget, that's what it's all about.

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post #9094 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

I think the misconception people seem to have is when they see that Xbox One is running a game at 720p, they ask "At that point, why not just play on 360?" as if resolution was the only thing these next-gen systems get us. It ignores the increase in RAM, the better and more varied textures resulting from that, the better shaders, the better effects, etc. There's so much more to be gained than just pixel count here, so the notion that resolution is this uber-important metric is odd to me.

Now you understand what we were trying to get across to you weeks ago about Kinect being mandatory and the loss of any freedom with discs. Aspects so ingrained in the Xbox One experience that without it, you might as well play a Xbox 360 as I recall you saying when defending those aspects from critics despite a myriad of other improvements.

The Xbox One is composed of many enhancements and features and isn't about any one thing like the expectation of 1080p being a near standard going forward. Like you said, it doesn't negate all the other positives about the system just because some games won't natively be 1080p.
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post #9095 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 09:41 AM
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So playing devils advocate here, from Leo, Jeremy and Michaels responses, wouldn't we have been better served if Microsoft only updated the Kinect, did a refresh of the Xbox 360 (more memory, bigger HDD and minor hardware changes) and release it at a much cheaper price with the same features that they incorporated in the One. Many people are using the 360 as a a media hub in one form or another. It's obviously what some of you seem to be looking for.

In regards to the One, 1080p should be the standard for sure, as again, it's the NEXT-GEN machine, and along with the myriad of new features, 1080p is expected, as it is the next jump from where we are now.

And playing devils advocate again, as for not surviving without gamers, I just don't know how you think it can. Gaming will be one of the bigger revenue streams for the first couple of years. From first party titles to 3rd party games which include licensing fees....and of course there are the XBL subscription fees. If gamers, who are making up a HUGE market in the first couple of years, don't see the benefits of the Xbox One for gaming needs, and don't support it, then developers will start focusing on the other platform more giving the better experiences to the competitor. Then starts the cycle, less quality games, less gamers, less royalities, less sales, and on and on.

And for those that think I don't have a vested interest in the xbox one, I say again my pre-order is paid for and I will have it at launch. But that doesn't mean that I am particularly happy with it at this time. Being in Canada we still don't have confirmation of if our cable boxes will work as noted, and we don't get the NFL app either. Add to this that some of the games that I was interested in are indeed technological inferior, and we still don't have the comparisons for other 3rd party games, and you have a shaky launch indeed. Playing CDs and supporting DLNA support off the hop isn't enough to cover the gap AT THIS POINT. Do I think things can get better, in some ways II do, but the other half of me is worried. Reports are the eSRAM is a bitch to use and the measly 32mb of it is not enough of a buffer to fully run 1080p games that are more taxing on the machine. Of course the bottle neck of less cores and slower memory are still going to be a factor. Developers are going to have to be creative to get what they want out of the Xbox One, but if that comes to having to sacrifice key tech features, including resolution, frame rate, stablitiy, etc, then there have to be concerns to had for the Xbox One, the "All in One Gaming and Entertainment Console" future. Hey, that is how press releases coin it.

Anyhow, I appreciate having a forum I can come and intelligently discuss this issue. Being able to vent, discuss, as well as learn other's takes on this machine is pleasant. When I see the forums in NEOgaf, IGN, and other sties, I just cringe from the fanboyism. Thanks for letting me hang out with you AVS'ers and rant away.

Cheers,

Outtie
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post #9096 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 09:58 AM
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I completely agree 1080p is where it should be what the design process is with the xbox one we don't fully know other than what online gaming journalists are say and we'll never know but they put the esram chip in for a reason. Games like forza, is it fully utilizing the ESRAM? It is performing at 1080p at 60fps. There are rumors that BF 4 is 1080p on the xbox one. Did they find ways to improve before launch? it very well could be. I think exclusives on the xbox one will use it to it's full advantage. However, 3rd party games may take time. Not up until a few months ago that Microsoft is continuing to update and fix t heir SDK and have found ways to improve performance. 3rd party games had to get recertified because of these improvements. I am willing to be launch games were based on early xbox one specs and early sdk that was not yet optimized or complete. Now I have zero experience or factual information to back this up. It's merely just my opinion.

Give it time and I think you'll see games improve, and resolutions improve as well as how games look and play.

Look at the PS3, games on early launch suffered compreed to the xbox 360 but over time the PS3 cell structure started to show it's colors and as a result, games got better. This isnt to say that every single game coming out on the xbox here on out will be 720p or 900p. I just think, because it's early and the fact that the PS4 has better hardware, even if its slight will have games running on higher resolutions due to the better chip. But if devs can use the esram in ways MS hopes they can, then we they may be able to support it. Problem is with the launch games, is that most of that hardware was still in development, and the software used to make the games was still in development, so I highly doubt you'll see the full benefits of the ESRAM and the xbox one right from the get go. Not to mention that MS upped the CPU and GPU clock on the xbox one, which again games coming out will see little to no benefit from since those games are done and it's code will not be optimized to refect the recent chages to the clock speed on the chip.

TO sumamrize, give it time. Unfortunately it won't beat the PS4 in terms of hardware, but I think givin time that devs will makes games that will fully utilize the esram, updated SDK and increated clock performance to really push the xbox one and what it can do.

Last thing, I'm interested to see how Direct X 11.2 and it's tiled texturing will compare to the PS4. Since this was another thing that they introduced mid xbox one development.
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post #9097 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 10:37 AM
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Anyone been to an XB1 Area One event? Wondering about the line to get in. How do they handle it? Thanks.

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post #9098 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Outcast View Post

And playing devils advocate again, as for not surviving without gamers, I just don't know how you think it can.

Again, I'm not saying that it can "survive" without gamers but that it can survive without gamers for whom 1080p60 is the most important quality of a game. My stance is that those people are a small and non-vital subset of gamers, most of whom aren't interested in consoles at all. If that's what you're looking for and all that you're looking for then the PS4 may hit the mark more often and you should go with that.

And what, pray tell, is your definition of "survive"? Do you really imagine that the Xbox One will fail to be a profitable product? If so, you're delusional.

Whether or not it can hit 1080p60 in this first batch of games, the Xbox One has four or five times the CPU power, 5 times the shader throughput and 16 times as much memory. You will see the difference that makes in graphics quality whether the developers choose to use the power to hit 1080p60 or not. The visuals of Forza 5 (which are running at 1080p60) or Ryse (at 720p30) could not be achieved by the 360. It also allows for non-graphical improvements, like larger numbers of simultaneous players in matches and larger numbers of NPC characters and animated objects on the screen.

Boiling the "next generation" of gaming down into a resolution spec is a simplistic and invalid point of view.

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post #9099 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 02:03 PM
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Having dedicated servers on every title is huge and alone enough reason to upgrade. Games will look much better no matter the resolution. Even though I am only going XO this year, I will get a PS4 when a game I want to play releases. I don't have to choose so most of the arguments don't matter to me. Both companies are stumbling out the gate and both will work to bring much better experiences in the future.
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post #9100 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 02:04 PM
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Again, I'm not saying that it can "survive" without gamers but that it can survive without gamers for whom 1080p60 is the most important quality of a game. My stance is that those people are a small and non-vital subset of gamers, most of whom aren't interested in consoles at all. If that's what you're looking for and all that you're looking for then the PS4 may hit the mark more often and you should go with that.

And what, pray tell, is your definition of "survive"? Do you really imagine that the Xbox One will fail to be a profitable product? If so, you're delusional.

Whether or not it can hit 1080p60 in this first batch of games, the Xbox One has four or five times the CPU power, 5 times the shader throughput and 16 times as much memory. You will see the difference that makes in graphics quality whether the developers choose to use the power to hit 1080p60 or not. The visuals of Forza 5 (which are running at 1080p60) or Ryse (at 720p30) could not be achieved by the 360. It also allows for non-graphical improvements, like larger numbers of simultaneous players in matches and larger numbers of NPC characters and animated objects on the screen.

Boiling the "next generation" of gaming down into a resolution spec is a simplistic and invalid point of view.

not saying it will not turn a profit, but to call someone delusional? really?? have you done any research, over the last decade xbox lost around 3billion
http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsofts-xbox-division-has-lost-nearly-3-billion-in-10-years
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post #9101 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 02:11 PM
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The vast majority of those losses was with the og Xbox and those losses were written off years ago. Xbox is profitable now and will continue to be so. No one knows how important the Xbox brand is for Microsoft for all of their products. It puts the Microsoft name out and services they sell are tied in. I am seriously considering going with a windows phone for my next upgrade. I wouldn't even think about that if it wasn't for Xbox.

In the end Microsoft wants you to buy into their eco system. They stand to make much more money if you vest into it and use their services for every device you use. Xbox gives them the best chance to suck you in, forever.
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post #9102 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 02:21 PM
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not saying it will not turn a profit, but to call someone delusional? really?? have you done any research, over the last decade xbox lost around 3billion
http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsofts-xbox-division-has-lost-nearly-3-billion-in-10-years

I didn't call anyone delusional, I just said that if he thought it wouldn't ultimately be profitable he was delusional. This generation is different from any previous in that it's projected that hardware sales of both Xbox One and PS4 will be profitable at launch. Usually consoles are sold at a significant loss for the first couple of years at least.
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post #9103 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 02:27 PM
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I didn't call anyone delusional, I just said that if he thought it wouldn't ultimately be profitable he was delusional. This generation is different from any previous in that it's projected that hardware sales of both Xbox One and PS4 will be profitable at launch. Usually consoles are sold at a significant loss for the first couple of years at least.

Yes, they cover COGS but MS and Sony invest much more than COGS in the consoles. Companies write of losses but that does not mean that the product has not had an overall drain on resources.
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post #9104 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 02:28 PM
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Man, all those NFL games on ESPN and Fox broadcast in 720P sure don't look as good as the games broadcast in 1080P on CBS and NBC said no one ever.

Bunch of f'n drama queens posting/whining in here lately.
Insulting and uncalled for. BTW, NBC and CBS broadcast in 1080i, not 1080p. Big difference, especially for sporting events.



I was editing my original post to reflect that CBS and NBC broadcast at 1080i not 1080P at the same time I was being quoted here. It was late and I was tired. I was also tired of seeing people who never ever post here showing up just to dump on MS and the XB1. This whole 720p vs. 1080P is much ado about nothing. It's being blown way out of proportion. These are launch titles and the only multiplat that has a developer confirmed res difference is COD. I can understand my post being removed because it offended the delicate sensibilities of certain individuals. I was given an infraction and I accept it. On the other hand, if posts are going to be deleted because they offended someone, I would like to think any posts quoting the offending post would be removed as well.
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post #9105 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 02:59 PM
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Companies write of losses but that does not mean that the product has not had an overall drain on resources.

Even with a profit on the hardware from the start it will take quite some time before they recover their R&D investment. Xbox One hardware+software+services is an extremely complex program; it would be interesting to see how they define the parameters of its success.
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post #9106 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 03:14 PM
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I can see them pushing windows phone through Xbox. Along with surface, they could make it a very enticing all in one Eco system for gamers. I am curious what offerings they will have concerning all three platforms and tying it all together. The research and development costs are IMO not important if they can gain new users in the other two categories.

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post #9107 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 03:55 PM
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Insulting and uncalled for. BTW, NBC and CBS broadcast in 1080i, not 1080p. Big difference, especially for sporting events.

Wow. now broadcast sports have been dragged into the forum... I think most sports fans who actually watch sports, especially fast sports like football prefer it at 720p60 versus 1080i30. The motion is captured must better, with less blurring. NBC Sports football looks great on those static shows and slow motion but when you get a fast catch and run and the camera's trying to keep up, it's no contest.
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post #9108 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Again, I'm not saying that it can "survive" without gamers but that it can survive without gamers for whom 1080p60 is the most important quality of a game. My stance is that those people are a small and non-vital subset of gamers, most of whom aren't interested in consoles at all. If that's what you're looking for and all that you're looking for then the PS4 may hit the mark more often and you should go with that.

And what, pray tell, is your definition of "survive"? Do you really imagine that the Xbox One will fail to be a profitable product? If so, you're delusional.

Whether or not it can hit 1080p60 in this first batch of games, the Xbox One has four or five times the CPU power, 5 times the shader throughput and 16 times as much memory. You will see the difference that makes in graphics quality whether the developers choose to use the power to hit 1080p60 or not. The visuals of Forza 5 (which are running at 1080p60) or Ryse (at 720p30) could not be achieved by the 360. It also allows for non-graphical improvements, like larger numbers of simultaneous players in matches and larger numbers of NPC characters and animated objects on the screen.

Boiling the "next generation" of gaming down into a resolution spec is a simplistic and invalid point of view.

I know this topic is getting stale, but I'm bored so what the hay...

See the line I've bolded. First, no ones point of view is invalid. But yes, hanging the next gen on one spec is simplistic, so I agree. However, the rub for me is not the fact it isn't doing 1080p in the launch titles. It's that the competition is. That's a big deal. And for those that argue these are just launch titles so growing pains are to be expected, I submit these are launch titles on the other guy's plat as well. Ask yourself this question: if they could do it, why not the Xb1? Pull that string a little further and ask yourself how long until we see parity between the two.

None of these things are necessarily deal breakers for me. But they are of concern...simply dismissing them as invalid will not make them go away.

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post #9109 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 04:33 PM
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It is no secret the PS4 is easier to develop for. I am not shocked at all with anything so far. Microsoft's tools were lagging behind so optimization isn't where it could be. Everything with Xbox and PlayStation news was predictable to me. Not one surprise has happened yet to me. The internet is making a much bigger deal out of the launches problems. These are the most complicated machines of their kind to date. Expectations are huge for both, and there is too much to tackle for both companies. The issues will be ironed out and gamers will be happy.

If you expect perfection at launch you must not have paid much attention to past console launches. It's the same arguments over and over. Guess no one remembers 360 launch titles not being any better than the Xbox or PS2 games. There was no reason to upgrade when current games were so good. Not hitting 720p was a joke and would never be corrected. Same stories, different gen.

I'll be buying both early in their life cycle. I love watching a console develop over its life into a machine that ends up being so much better than the launch system offered. I have been down this road many times before. For me the XO is the most exciting launch ever. It offers features I have always wanted in a console. Being able to switch from TV to a game in seconds is the best feature ever to me. I will play far more note because of that convenience alone. 3 weeks until it begins. I will most likely get the PS4 next spring. Very excited for both systems.
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post #9110 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 05:03 PM
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It is no secret the PS4 is easier to develop for. I am not shocked at all with anything so far. Microsoft's tools were lagging behind so optimization isn't where it could be. Everything with Xbox and PlayStation news was predictable to me. Not one surprise has happened yet to me. The internet is making a much bigger deal out of the launches problems. These are the most complicated machines of their kind to date. Expectations are huge for both, and there is too much to tackle for both companies. The issues will be ironed out and gamers will be happy.

If you expect perfection at launch you must not have paid much attention to past console launches. It's the same arguments over and over. Guess no one remembers 360 launch titles not being any better than the Xbox or PS2 games. There was no reason to upgrade when current games were so good. Not hitting 720p was a joke and would never be corrected. Same stories, different gen.

I'll be buying both early in their life cycle. I love watching a console develop over its life into a machine that ends up being so much better than the launch system offered. I have been down this road many times before. For me the XO is the most exciting launch ever. It offers features I have always wanted in a console. Being able to switch from TV to a game in seconds is the best feature ever to me. I will play far more note because of that convenience alone. 3 weeks until it begins. I will most likely get the PS4 next spring. Very excited for both systems.

you are right about one thing, i don't remember 360 launch titles looking like xbox or ps2, in fact i remember seeing COD and King Kong and being VERY impressed..
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post #9111 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 05:06 PM
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It is no secret the PS4 is easier to develop for. I am not shocked at all with anything so far. Microsoft's tools were lagging behind so optimization isn't where it could be.

That's in and of itself shocks me. MS Я Software Development Tools; it's been one of their greatest assets in console gaming development.

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post #9112 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 05:23 PM
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That's in and of itself shocks me. MS Я Software Development Tools; it's been one of their greatest assets in console gaming development.

also amazing that he knew ms was going to change on DRM and always on..
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post #9113 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 05:51 PM
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Wow. now broadcast sports have been dragged into the forum... I think most sports fans who actually watch sports, especially fast sports like football prefer it at 720p60 versus 1080i30. The motion is captured must better, with less blurring. NBC Sports football looks great on those static shows and slow motion but when you get a fast catch and run and the camera's trying to keep up, it's no contest.


The point remains, a 1080P display with a good deinterlacer and a quality scaler will render the difference between the two resolutions to be practically non existent.
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post #9114 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 05:52 PM
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Tom Warren has a video up of the Xbox One's dashboard. He is not signing into live so some of the apps did not work, but he does demo app switching.

h
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post #9115 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 06:01 PM
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The point remains, a 1080P display with a good deinterlacer and a quality scaler will render the difference between the two resolutions to be practically non existent.

The point I'm saying is most sports guys prefer sports at 60 fps (720P) over the higher resolution 1080i at 30 fps. Sports is about motion and the sports action looks better at 60 Hz. The only time the 1080i looks better is when they do the real slow motion replays or freeze frames and you need to see if it was a fumble or not and the pixels help. But during real game action, the 720p60 is preferred.
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post #9116 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 06:10 PM
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Tom Warren has a video up of the Xbox One's dashboard. He is not signing into live so some of the apps did not work, but he does demo app switching.

h

I wished he signed in so we could see more functionality (or maybe the functionality is not up because the system's not out yet). Maybe he didn't sign in because he didn't want the world to know his name, email, etc.
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post #9117 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 06:25 PM
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The point I'm saying is most sports guys prefer sports at 60 fps (720P) over the higher resolution 1080i at 30 fps. Sports is about motion and the sports action looks better at 60 Hz. The only time the 1080i looks better is when they do the real slow motion replays or freeze frames and you need to see if it was a fumble or not and the pixels help. But during real game action, the 720p60 is preferred.

I thought it was 1080i 60 not 1080i 30. 1080i 60 is the same bandwidth as 1080p30. Where are you guys getting 1080i 30 from?

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post #9118 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 06:43 PM
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I thought it was 1080i 60 not 1080i 30. 1080i 60 is the same bandwidth as 1080p30. Where are you guys getting 1080i 30 from?

To avoid confusion the number after the i or p should be frames/sec. If it's "i" then those frames are composed of 2 half frame fields each. i30 = 60 interlaced fields/sec.

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post #9119 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 07:01 PM
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To avoid confusion the number after the i or p should be frames/sec. If it's "i" then those frames are composed of 2 half frame fields each. i30 = 60 interlaced fields/sec.

okay, to be clear, when you record Fox or ABC, it records at 720p at 59.94 frames per second. when you record CBS or NBC, it records 1080i at 29.97 fps... it's not the recorder either. If you want a live cast, bring up your info page for your TV and it'll show the information as well.



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post #9120 of 16456 Old 11-02-2013, 07:38 PM
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1080i is typically 60 interlaced frames per second (50 in some other countries). This is the equivalent of 1080p30 as 60 half frames has the same data as 30 full frames. 1080i30 would be the equivalent of 15 full frames per second or 1080p15. I have never heard of this before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080i

"Within the abbreviation the i stands for interlaced scan. A frame of 1080i video consists of two sequential fields of 1920 horizontal and 1080 vertical pixels. The first field consists of all odd-numbered TV lines and the second all even numbered lines. Consequently the horizontal lines of pixels in each field are captured and displayed with a one-line vertical gap between them, so the lines of the next field can be interlaced between them. 1080i differs from 1080p, where the p stands for progressive scan, where all lines in a frame are captured at the same time. In native or pure 1080i, the two fields of a frame correspond to different instants (points in time), so motion portrayal is good (50 or 60 motion phases/second). This is true for interlaced video in general and can be easily observed in still images taken from fast motion scenes, as shown in the figure on the right (without approriate deinterlacing). However when 1080p material is captured at 25 or 30 frames/second it is converted to 1080i at 50 or 60 fields/second, respectively, for processing or broadcasting. In this situation both fields in a frame do correspond to the same instant. The field-to-instant relation is somewhat more complex for the case of 1080p at 24 frames/second converted to 1080i at 60 fields/second, as explained in the Telecine article.

The field rate of 1080i is typically 60 Hz (i.e. 60 fields per second) for countries that use or used System M as analog broadcast television system (such as United States, Canada, Japan, and most of Latin America), or 50 Hz for regions that traditionally used television systems with 50 fields/sec rate (such as in Europe, Australia, much of Asia, Africa, and part of Latin America). Both field rates can be carried by major digital television broadcast formats such as ATSC, DVB, and ISDB-T International."

I guess they use 1080i30 in Europe to mean 30 progressive frames per second scanned interlaced at a refresh rate of 60hz but I've never heard that terminology used in reference to NTSC video in this country.
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