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post #12511 of 16306 Old 01-16-2014, 09:12 PM
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I guess I'll have to do the same. I used to think another gaming site was bad, but that forum takes the cake.

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post #12512 of 16306 Old 01-16-2014, 10:41 PM
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What happened next door? I saw discussion about supply constraints about today's NPD numbers which seemed like a very valid point to raise, but apparently missed what has rubbed people wrong where this new console war is concerned (Which I've never understood... always been a multiplatform guy).

Does it involve those sales numbers?
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post #12513 of 16306 Old 01-16-2014, 11:18 PM
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Leo_Ames,

Nothing really 'happened', there's just a few loyalists here and there that like to take jabs at the competition (this obviously goes for all the brands but it has been more frequent in the Playstation forum as of late).

Everyone has been civil, although I now likely have even more people that dislike me for speaking up. I guess it just bothers me to see it here, it runs so rampant all over the net and makes gamers look so ridiculous and immature.

I know I am not a mod but I respect the forum after being here for so long and feel we are all responsible for the content posted within.

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post #12514 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 06:06 AM
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Lots of jabs being taken in the last dozen or so posts. Pot, meet kettle.

Glad to see both consoles doing well. It will be interesting to see if either can expand the market rather than just exchanging market share between the big 3.
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post #12515 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 06:08 AM
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Lots of jabs being taken in the last dozen or so posts. Pot, meet kettle.

Glad to see both consoles doing well. It will be interesting to see if either can expand the market rather than just exchanging market share between the big 3.

Yep.
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post #12516 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 06:10 AM
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I've got both consoles, and am glad for it. Don't care about sales, personally, so long as there are enough to keep the brands alive. Though, my Xbox is definitely king in my living room.
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post #12517 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 06:21 AM
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I've got both consoles, and am glad for it. Don't care about sales, personally, so long as there are enough to keep the brands alive. Though, my Xbox is definitely king in my living room.

I kind of want to see both burn, just one a little less than the other. tongue.gif

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post #12518 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 06:23 AM
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I thought both consoles have sold record numbers? Neither of them have ever had sales so good after a launch.

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post #12519 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 07:16 AM
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I think the last time I participated in "fanboyism" I was in elementary school, trying to convince my friends that the SMS was better than the NES. I eventually caved and bought the NES, realizing that if I considered myself a "gamer" I should just care about playing the best games, not what platform they reside on.

My attitude is still pretty much the same, and we should all be rooting for both consoles to sell like gangbusters so that we have another "next gen" to look forward to in a few years. It's become difficult to support Nintendo (the Wii U is the first console I haven't bought in decades) considering that they have effectively released 7 year old hardware for two console generations in a row. I don't wish for them to fail, but I hope this is a wake up call for them.
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post #12520 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 08:10 AM
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The launch of this gen was bad enough that I hope to never see one again. Feels like it'll be years before they're back up to the same level of basic functionality. It's time to break the cycle.
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post #12521 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 08:11 AM
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The launch of this gen was bad enough that I hope to never see one again. Feels like it'll be years before they're back up to the same level of basic functionality. It's time to break the cycle.
Maybe the next Nintendo console will break that trend biggrin.gif

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post #12522 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 08:13 AM
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I thought both consoles have sold record numbers? Neither of them have ever had sales so good after a launch.

honestly i feel like this point is being missed and IMO it is a big one. Everyone has been saying how mobile is taking over and this is last time we see a console, etc.. Yet sales and demand are the highest they have ever been. Now to be fair, one can make the argument that since the wiiU isn't really selling there is really only 2 consoles that 90% of people have to decide upon, so sony and MS have more of the pie. But I have been surprised by how big the demand is. A guy sold a PS4 on ebay for 730 just 3 days ago, which is shocking to me...
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post #12523 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 08:25 AM
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The launch of this gen was bad enough that I hope to never see one again. Feels like it'll be years before they're back up to the same level of basic functionality. It's time to break the cycle.

How was this launch worse than previous launches? From an inventory perspective, both companies did far better than in the past (remember Sony only managed to produce like 200K PS3s for the North American launch). In terms of the consoles themselves, my only gripes are with a few missing features (3D, full DLNA support, etc), and a relatively sparse lineup of launch games. I expect many of these issues to be addressed in the coming months.
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post #12524 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 08:42 AM
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How was this launch worse than previous launches? From an inventory perspective, both companies did far better than in the past (remember Sony only managed to produce like 200K PS3s for the North American launch). In terms of the consoles themselves, my only gripes are with a few missing features (3D, full DLNA support, etc), and a relatively sparse lineup of launch games. I expect many of these issues to be addressed in the coming months.

It's worse for a ton of reasons:

1) no BC after a 7-8 year generation really stings. Last gen had some form of BC on all sides, even if it wasn't always perfect. And not only software, but hardware too. Most of your controllers, headers, wheels are useless going forward on both platforms, despite very minor changes in functionality.

2) A step back in functionality. I can't recall anything the Xbox or PS2 could do that the 360/PS3 couldn't do on day one. And some stuff like parties are technically there but way worse than their previous iterations.

3) the fracturing of online player bases. It was bad enough that XBL and PSN were incompatible, but even the last gen platforms can't play with current gen within the same camp. Was much less of a problem last gen since online console gaming was nowhere near as big of a thing. Now we've got 6 viable and incompatible platforms. It's ridiculous! People should demand to be able to play with each other regardless of who's box they bought.

You have to take a step back and really question why gamers put up with this nonsense. Why we're protecting our feudal lords instead of revolting and getting behind a democracy/meritocracy. It finally seems realistic that the gaming industry can get behind a common technical platform, with the current players being reduced to producing cross-compatible boxes and hosting storefronts and social networks on top of it. I'll be really disappointed if the status quo survives long enough to permit another generation.

The world ain't ready for it yet, but it very well might be in 5 years.
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post #12525 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 08:55 AM
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It's worse for a ton of reasons:

1) no BC after a 7-8 year generation really stings. Last gen had some form of BC on all sides, even if it wasn't always perfect. And not only software, but hardware too. Most of your controllers, headers, wheels are useless going forward on both platforms, despite very minor changes in functionality.

2) A step back in functionality. I can't recall anything the Xbox or PS2 could do that the 360/PS3 couldn't do on day one. And some stuff like parties are technically there but way worse than their previous iterations.

3) the fracturing of online player bases. It was bad enough that XBL and PSN were incompatible, but even the last gen platforms can't play with current gen within the same camp. Was much less of a problem last gen since online console gaming was nowhere near as big of a thing. Now we've got 6 viable and incompatible platforms. It's ridiculous! People should demand to be able to play with each other regardless of who's box they bought.

You have to take a step back and really question why gamers put up with this nonsense. Why we're protecting our feudal lords instead of revolting and getting behind a democracy/meritocracy. It finally seems realistic that the gaming industry can get behind a common technical platform, with the current players being reduced to producing cross-compatible boxes and hosting storefronts and social networks on top of it. I'll be really disappointed if the status quo survives long enough to permit another generation.

The world ain't ready for it yet, but it very well might be in 5 years.

I'm not sure you quite understand the technical challenges of accomplishing items 1 and 3. In addition, what you are advocating essentially eliminates choice, and I'm not sure that's ever a good thing. To some extent, this has been tried before with the 3D0. Their vision was that 3D0 technology would be a unifying platform that evolved over time, and the technology would be licensed to multiple hardware manufacturers. If you recall, Panasonic, Goldstar, and maybe one or two others, produced 3D0 consoles. Nobody bought into this concept back then, and I'm not sure anyone wants a unified platform now. That already exists; it's called PC gaming. smile.gif
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post #12526 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 09:04 AM
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I'm not sure you quite understand the technical challenges of accomplishing items 1 and 3. In addition, what you are advocating essentially eliminates choice, and I'm not sure that's ever a good thing. To some extent, this has been tried before with the 3D0. Their vision was that 3D0 technology would be a unifying platform that evolved over time, and the technology would be licensed to multiple hardware manufacturers. If you recall, Panasonic, Goldstar, and maybe one or two others, produced 3D0 consoles. Nobody bought into this concept back then, and I'm not sure anyone wants a unified platform now. That already exists; it's called PC gaming. smile.gif

only thing i will disagree with is the idea that no one wants unified platforms.. there are a ton of people that want that.. also i wasn't aware that on the PC you can play Mario, infamous, etc..
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post #12527 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 09:17 AM
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only thing i will disagree with is the idea that no one wants unified platforms.. there are a ton of people that want that.. also i wasn't aware that on the PC you can play Mario, infamous, etc..

I suppose Valve is taking another stab at this concept with the Steam Machines. However, I don't care for their approach. All of the Steam machines announced have huge variances in performance, so how a game looks/plays on Steam Machine A could be quite different than how it plays on Steam Machine B. That doesn't sound very unified to me.

If you could play ALL games on a service like Sony's Playstation Now, and the graphics/performance matched that of a high-end PC, then you could say we truly had a unified platform. However, I don't see that happening until we all have MUCH better broadband connections.
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post #12528 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 09:21 AM
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You have to take a step back and really question why gamers put up with this nonsense. Why we're protecting our feudal lords instead of revolting and getting behind a democracy/meritocracy. It finally seems realistic that the gaming industry can get behind a common technical platform, with the current players being reduced to producing cross-compatible boxes and hosting storefronts and social networks on top of it. I'll be really disappointed if the status quo survives long enough to permit another generation.

PC has been this platform for over 25 years. It's a common technical platform. It's fully backwards compatible. The boxes you buy are compatible, dumb things that host storefronts and social networks.

Of course, it has its quirks, but those quirks come as a result of the fact that it is all of that. Those quirks also make it less popular with the population at large, but nothing is perfect.
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post #12529 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tsaville View Post

I'm not sure you quite understand the technical challenges of accomplishing items 1 and 3. In addition, what you are advocating essentially eliminates choice, and I'm not sure that's ever a good thing. To some extent, this has been tried before with the 3D0. Their vision was that 3D0 technology would be a unifying platform that evolved over time, and the technology would be licensed to multiple hardware manufacturers. If you recall, Panasonic, Goldstar, and maybe one or two others, produced 3D0 consoles. Nobody bought into this concept back then, and I'm not sure anyone wants a unified platform now. That already exists; it's called PC gaming. smile.gif

1 and 3 have already been proven feasible for decades on the PC. Windows gamers can play with Mac or Linux gamers in most if not all games that support multiple platforms. It's only a technical challenge on consoles because the feudal lords refuse to work with each other so they can protect their territory (and charge you and devs a fee for the privilege!)

Choice would be far from eliminated, it would be enhanced, and competition would only get more fierce. When PSN is just an app you run, it needs to justify its existence instead of being your only choice. It can get the ball rolling with exclusives like EA/origin, but installing origin doesn't make your steam games cease to work, nor does it require a separate "origin box."

The 3D0 model will never work, because that was still proprietary nonsense. It was just another feudal lord in disguise. The only viable contender is Linux based - it's free, and it's open source. No one can own it or control it, and it can be molded to everyone's needs. And anyone that changes something has to share with everyone else.

It seems crazy now, but there's a confluence of events right now that are making it very realistic. Windows is deteriorating as a gaming platform, which scared valve into leading the charge on Linux. AMD sweeped the consoles, which scared intel and nvidia into getting behind that charge. Windows is showing signs of weakness on the consumer front due to a litany of reasons. Devs would love nothing more than to code for one platform instead of 6. Publishers would rather cut out the middleman and sell direct to you. And consumers have a lot to gain due to lower prices, broader compatibility and enhanced choice, all because everyone can turn their back on any vendor at a moments notice without feeling any sting, because everything still just works.

So much of this "console war" is fueled by the very real wedge that the platforms have driven between players. If you don't buy the same platform as your friends, you can't play with them. That's enough for people to throw every other consideration out of the window. And then when you're forced to invest in a proprietary platform, there's no wonder people defend it...because they have so much to lose if it doesn't succeed.

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post #12530 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 09:26 AM
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PC has been this platform for over 25 years. It's a common technical platform. It's fully backwards compatible. The boxes you buy are compatible, dumb things that host storefronts and social networks.

Of course, it has its quirks, but those quirks come as a result of the fact that it is all of that. Those quirks also make it less popular with the population at large, but nothing is perfect.

The prob with windows is that Microsoft owns it, charges a ton for it, and is free to take it in crazy directions like windows 8. And no one but Microsoft has any say in that.

It was their complacency that allowed steam to become what it is. Their half assed tablet attempts eventually crumbled in the face of the well designed iPad. Maybe they can still compete with SteamOS/Linux if the Xbox OS proves flexible enough...but that only stops the bleeding. I just don't think people are going to put up with this proprietary nonsense any longer, once there's a realistic alternative.

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post #12531 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 09:28 AM
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The prob with windows is that Microsoft owns it, charges a ton for it, and is free to take it in crazy directions like windows 8. And no one but Microsoft has any say in that.

It was their complacency that allowed steam to become what it is.

And you think this "common console" wouldn't be like that because....?

Valve can take Steam in whatever direction they want and nobody can say anything about it.
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post #12532 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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It's worse for a ton of reasons:

1) no BC after a 7-8 year generation really stings. Last gen had some form of BC on all sides, even if it wasn't always perfect. And not only software, but hardware too. Most of your controllers, headers, wheels are useless going forward on both platforms, despite very minor changes in functionality.

2) A step back in functionality. I can't recall anything the Xbox or PS2 could do that the 360/PS3 couldn't do on day one. And some stuff like parties are technically there but way worse than their previous iterations.

3) the fracturing of online player bases. It was bad enough that XBL and PSN were incompatible, but even the last gen platforms can't play with current gen within the same camp. Was much less of a problem last gen since online console gaming was nowhere near as big of a thing. Now we've got 6 viable and incompatible platforms. It's ridiculous! People should demand to be able to play with each other regardless of who's box they bought.

You have to take a step back and really question why gamers put up with this nonsense. Why we're protecting our feudal lords instead of revolting and getting behind a democracy/meritocracy. It finally seems realistic that the gaming industry can get behind a common technical platform, with the current players being reduced to producing cross-compatible boxes and hosting storefronts and social networks on top of it. I'll be really disappointed if the status quo survives long enough to permit another generation.

The world ain't ready for it yet, but it very well might be in 5 years.

1) no bc for headsets sucks. I've never used a new console to play old games so I could care less about that.

2) og Xbox and ps2 couldnt do much outside of gaming so of course the 360 and ps3 didn't lose any features.

3) fracturing of console player bases has always been and will always be. I don't really see it as a negative, just a fact of life.

I think the majority of console gamers don't share your view, and almost definitely not as strongly. Sounds like what you want is a pc. Why make consoles conform to that?

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post #12533 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 09:36 AM
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And you think this "common console" wouldn't be like that because....?

Valve can take Steam in whatever direction they want and nobody can say anything about it.

Not with SteamOS. It's bound by the GPL. Otherwise they can't use Linux, have to write a whole OS from scratch, and no one will ever, ever use it.

EA can download the SteamOS source code right now and modify it to make OriginOS. And then Ubisoft can do the same. Anyone can.

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post #12534 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 09:37 AM
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Not with SteamOS. It's bound by the GPL. Otherwise they can't use Linux, have to write a whole OS from scratch, and no one will ever, ever use it.

SteamOS is bound by the GPL, but Steam the software platform is not.

edit: but more broadly I just wonder how you think we will get this common platform. Microsoft and Sony team up? How will that do anything except lessen competition in the space? A bunch of companies release some "common console" spec out of the goodness of their hearts? Not happening.
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SteamOS is bound by the GPL, but Steam the software platform is not.

edit: but more broadly I just wonder how you think we will get this common platform. Microsoft and Sony team up? How will that do anything except lessen competition in the space? A bunch of companies release some "common console" spec out of the goodness of their hearts? Not happening.

Valve gets the ball rolling. EA, activision and ubisoft pick it up from there. They'll slowly force the Sony/MSes hand into allowing cross buy on console/PC. If one of the two platforms shows enough weakness that they start allowing cross-compatible play, etc....the lone holdout is in a tough spot. Consumers will begin to demand and expect that you buy your games once and play them on any platform against any other platform. The holdout will eventually cave from the pressure.

Then when the next console cycle hits, the compatibility will be so important to the consumer that they won't dare go against it. At that point, they can't beat em, they can only join em.

Maybe it lights a fire under MS's ass and windows starts to compete on this front. Either way, there will be a consolidation.

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post #12536 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 10:07 AM
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And you think this "common console" wouldn't be like that because....?

Valve can take Steam in whatever direction they want and nobody can say anything about it.
Steam OS is open source atleast I am reading it that way. Looks to be downloadable according the FAQ .
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post #12537 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 10:10 AM
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Valve gets the ball rolling. EA, activision and ubisoft pick it up from there. They'll slowly force the Sony/MSes hand into allowing cross buy on console/PC. If one of the two platforms shows enough weakness that they start allowing cross-compatible play, etc....the lone holdout is in a tough spot. Consumers will begin to demand and expect that you buy your games once and play them on any platform against any other platform. The holdout will eventually cave from the pressure.

Then when the next console cycle hits, the compatibility will be so important to the consumer that they won't dare go against it. At that point, they can't beat em, they can only join em.

Maybe it lights a fire under MS's ass and windows starts to compete on this front. Either way, there will be a consolidation.

But then you have Valve as the boss...
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Steam OS is open source atleast I am reading it that way. Looks to be downloadable according the FAQ .

Yes I already said that. Steam itself is proprietary and Valve can do whatever they want with it. If you want to play Steam games you need to play by Valve's rules. I guess in theory you could put SteamOS on your computer and not run Steam, but what's the point?
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post #12538 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 10:11 AM
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PC has been this platform for over 25 years. It's a common technical platform. It's fully backwards compatible. The boxes you buy are compatible, dumb things that host storefronts and social networks.

Of course, it has its quirks, but those quirks come as a result of the fact that it is all of that. Those quirks also make it less popular with the population at large, but nothing is perfect.


PC is far from fully backwards compatible without still supporting whatever title you want to play.  Try and get system shock 2 to work in vista/7/8 (not steam version of course).  If it was not for people continuing to support older games with hacks/tweaks a lot of them would not work on current OS.  Oni is another example that is hard to make work. 

 

I did not expect PS3 BC for the PS4 because of the architecture change.  Without having the actual hardware in it would make it nearly impossible, thats how they managed it with the ps2 emulation on the originals, it literally had a ps2 inside.

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post #12539 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 10:53 AM
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But then you have Valve as the boss...
Yes I already said that. Steam itself is proprietary and Valve can do whatever they want with it. If you want to play Steam games you need to play by Valve's rules. I guess in theory you could put SteamOS on your computer and not run Steam, but what's the point?

Steam/valve really isn't that powerful. They're just popular, because they're good at what they do and they provide a killer service to gamers and devs/pubs. I've lost count of how many competing storefronts there are on PC. As soon as they started to dictate ominous terms, no one is beholden to put up with their BS. Origin, Desura, Uplay, even Sony and MS will welcome everyone in with open arms. You can "switch platforms" with the click of a button instead of a $500 hardware investment and leaving all your games and friends. They'll make it nice and easy to launch your steam games from their storefront (just like valve makes it easy to launch origin games from steam.)

It's hard not to project the console way of thought over to the PC side, of us being at the whims of all powerful platform holders, but that's just not the way it works with open platforms, even semi-open platforms like windows.

Who knows when the smoke will clear, if ever again. But the "console war" is so much bigger than Sony and MS now.

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post #12540 of 16306 Old 01-17-2014, 10:57 AM
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Steam/valve really isn't that powerful. They're just popular, because they're good at what they do and they provide a killer service to gamers and devs/pubs. I've lost count of how many competing storefronts there are on PC. As soon as they started to dictate ominous terms, no one is beholden to put up with their BS. Origin, Desura, Uplay, even Sony and MS will welcome everyone in with open arms. You can "switch platforms" with the click of a button instead of a $500 hardware investment and leaving all your games and friends.

I actually kind of disagree with this. It's pretty easy to switch from MS to Sony in a generation. A lot of people did it the opposite way last gen - from PS2 to Xbox 360. A lot of people (correctly IMO) thought PS3 was crappy so they got on board with Xbox 360 and forced Sony to improve their system.

Let's say Valve starts to dictate ominous terms, whatever they are. I decide I hate Valve and don't want to use their service anymore. Well, I have about 150 games on my Steam account. If I don't use Steam I lose them forever.
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