Kinect 2.0, NSA and P.R.I.S.M - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 141 Old 06-11-2013, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Is anyone else are little worried about having that amount of biometric data out there?
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post #2 of 141 Old 06-11-2013, 09:14 PM
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YES! IF the kinect sends your data to Microsoft servers, the NSA will, at least given how PRISM is currently allegedly operating, immediate have access to all that data too.

If the kinect does NOT send data to MS and all the kinect processes are internal, I'm less worried.

But we don't actually know

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post #3 of 141 Old 06-11-2013, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Well considering your Xboxlive account and savegames are all accessible from any Xbox One. Would it not make sense that at least some of it would be sent to the Cloud? Also Microsoft was one of the companies outed in this scandal.
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post #4 of 141 Old 06-11-2013, 11:44 PM
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Not worried. The government already has everything on me. Being military and all. Nothing to hide. They want to see me play the next Dance Central game, they can have at it.

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post #5 of 141 Old 06-12-2013, 03:09 AM
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Wow you guys are really paranoiac
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post #6 of 141 Old 06-13-2013, 09:35 AM
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No, it's paranoid if you are making it up, wearing a tin foil hat, dreaming of conspiracy theories. This PRISM stuff is confirmed as factual now, you can't call that paranoia. The NSA literally monitors your calls, emails, and yes even I'm sure can easily tap into Kinect to and watch you in your underwear being a dufus while you're playing COD. No probable cause, no warrants, just a class of Americans who have unchecked authority and a class of Americans who are spied on.

For those of you who call yourselves Americans, I'm so surpised the nonchalance and acceptance you have of living in a police state. Read the Constitution lately? These days the people who take the Constitution seriously are labelled as far-right wack-jobs. If the Constituion no longer means anything...what's America now anyway? Might as well move to Russia...people have more personal freedom there. I'm Canadian....it's more like America USED to be here than America is now, thank GOD.

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post #7 of 141 Old 06-13-2013, 10:04 AM
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I definitely think the government needs to be reigned in, made smaller, and some people arrested. That said I am not that worried about Kinect and in fact I am a bit comforted that the Prism stuff has been outed so watchdogs will now pay attention to what happens to the Kinect data. But if your that worried about it, you have an opportunity to make some money. Design a nice looking, sound proof Kinect cover and get it on the market, you'll make a mint.
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post #8 of 141 Old 06-13-2013, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I really don't see why it would have to be plugged in if you can have it "disabled" anyway.

MS should really acknowledge that some people are worried about the very real possibility of remote activation and spying, and disable the requirement for it to be permanently hooked it.

I don't know if government needs to be made smaller, but they should be transparent and accountable to it's citizens
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post #9 of 141 Old 06-13-2013, 09:38 PM
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Chances are:

1) You have a smartphone.

2) That has two HD cameras.

3) That is always connected to the internet.

4) That has access to all your email, phone & text communication.

5) That has apps to access all of your banking, financial and spending habits.

6) That has GPS and shows your location 24/7.





But you are really worried about someone using an Xbox to spy on you while sitting on the couch?

Where do you people come from. Seriously?
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post #10 of 141 Old 06-13-2013, 09:44 PM
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^this plus a tablet and maybe a "smart tv" with a camera. Oh and a car with GPS. What about the upcoming google glass, etc, etc..
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post #11 of 141 Old 06-13-2013, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
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How many of those other devices ask you to

Input in your face, body dimensions/build, and voice for recognition
Keeping a record of your profile on a server
Can tell your emotional state.
Can you tell if it is actively listening and looking all the time?
Are from a company that has been called up on privacy issues before.

You do realise this sort of information can be used to track you no matter where you goto to right? Perhaps I should just bend over and take it, seems to be part and parcel with living in the 21st century.
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post #12 of 141 Old 06-14-2013, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zBuff View Post

How many of those other devices ask you to

Input in your face, body dimensions/build, and voice for recognition
Keeping a record of your profile on a server
Can tell your emotional state.
Can you tell if it is actively listening and looking all the time?
Are from a company that has been called up on privacy issues before.

You do realise this sort of information can be used to track you no matter where you goto to right? Perhaps I should just bend over and take it, seems to be part and parcel with living in the 21st century.

The Kinect doesn't know my emotional state. The software takes input from the Kinect and infers my emotional state. Same for facial and voice recognition. This is important because from a privacy perspective, the Kinect is merely a sensor and in that sense it's the same as a modern smartphone/tablet/laptop. If you're OK lugging a hackable spy device (i.e. smartphone) in your pocket everyday, having one in your living room should not be an issue. I guess it is a reality in the 21st century. Still beats the heck out of last decade...I won't be giving up my iPhone anytime soon.

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post #13 of 141 Old 06-14-2013, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zBuff View Post

How many of those other devices ask you to

Input in your face, body dimensions/build, and voice for recognition
Keeping a record of your profile on a server
Can tell your emotional state.
Can you tell if it is actively listening and looking all the time?
Are from a company that has been called up on privacy issues before.

You do realise this sort of information can be used to track you no matter where you goto to right? Perhaps I should just bend over and take it, seems to be part and parcel with living in the 21st century.

The minute you put your address in for an order or went to HRBLOCK to file your taxes or send them electronically you have already exposed yourself. You might as well cut your losses and get off the internet now. Where was this outcry when Kinect allowed you to send video/pictures of yourself over their servers.
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post #14 of 141 Old 06-14-2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Daekwan View Post

Chances are:

1) You have a smartphone.

2) That has two HD cameras.

3) That is always connected to the internet.

4) That has access to all your email, phone & text communication.

5) That has apps to access all of your banking, financial and spending habits.

6) That has GPS and shows your location 24/7.





But you are really worried about someone using an Xbox to spy on you while sitting on the couch?

Where do you people come from. Seriously?

The PRISM story exposes that if the telco co-operates they can obviously turn all that data over. But that's historically only been under warrant. I turn off geo-location on my phone and data services as well if I"m not actively using it. If they don't have the data, then they can't mine it. I also use a VPN that doesn't retain logs or Tor for much of my web surfing especially online banking etc. Encrypted email using a non-US based secure email service. So, yes, people who are technically capable and care about their privacy do such things. For me I have training for this kind of stuff so I don't think twice about it, I don't exert a whole lot of energy to do this. Basically, if you don't know how to do this stuff or don't care, I get that, it probably seems ridiculous to you. But to make people who care about their privacy and the security of their personal data out to be "crazies" is too harsh IMO. If anyone has an official reason to be looking at my data, get a warrant. What's so hard about that? I've never been in that situation thankfully but people have rights and there should be a legal process that gets followed to obtain personal data. And what's offensive about it to all the people with the "geez, chill out dude" attitude? I don't get it. To those people I'd say "chill out...and hand me your credit card number and PIN" A few years ago before I did this stuff some crooks somehow got my info and did the whole identity theft thing, took out a loan in my name etc. I wasn't on the hook in the end but man is a royal pain to have to sort all that out. It happens a lot more than you would think.

edit: watch this, from 2008!

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post #15 of 141 Old 06-17-2013, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zBuff View Post

I really don't see why it would have to be plugged in if you can have it "disabled" anyway.

MS should really acknowledge that some people are worried about the very real possibility of remote activation and spying, and disable the requirement for it to be permanently hooked it.

I don't know if government needs to be made smaller, but they should be transparent and accountable to it's citizens

Because it is not truly disconnected?
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post #16 of 141 Old 06-18-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ultracat View Post

The PRISM story exposes that if the telco co-operates they can obviously turn all that data over. But that's historically only been under warrant. I turn off geo-location on my phone and data services as well if I"m not actively using it. If they don't have the data, then they can't mine it. I also use a VPN that doesn't retain logs or Tor for much of my web surfing especially online banking etc. Encrypted email using a non-US based secure email service. So, yes, people who are technically capable and care about their privacy do such things. For me I have training for this kind of stuff so I don't think twice about it, I don't exert a whole lot of energy to do this. Basically, if you don't know how to do this stuff or don't care, I get that, it probably seems ridiculous to you. But to make people who care about their privacy and the security of their personal data out to be "crazies" is too harsh IMO. If anyone has an official reason to be looking at my data, get a warrant. What's so hard about that? I've never been in that situation thankfully but people have rights and there should be a legal process that gets followed to obtain personal data. And what's offensive about it to all the people with the "geez, chill out dude" attitude? I don't get it. To those people I'd say "chill out...and hand me your credit card number and PIN" A few years ago before I did this stuff some crooks somehow got my info and did the whole identity theft thing, took out a loan in my name etc. I wasn't on the hook in the end but man is a royal pain to have to sort all that out. It happens a lot more than you would think.

edit: watch this, from 2008!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ux1hpLvqMw

You say you turn those features "off" on your phone. And you encrypt your email. As if that would stop an institution like the NSA from spying on you if they really wanted too.

Do you really believe the NSA cannot turn those services back "on" without you ever knowing? And still intercept your data? And still break your encryption and read all your communication? Think about that for a minute. The NSA wants to collect your information, but you've turned off a feature and are now safe. You really believe that the National Security Agency of the United States of America cannot access your phone because you've turned some things off. Really? Hold on a second.. while I literally fall on the floor laughing. rolleyes.gif



Unless your name is Jason Bourne.. I would think that if some government agency wants to spy on you.. there is little you could do to stop it. Especially since you are already carrying a consumer built smartphone on your at all times. Hell even if you could lock down your smartphone, whats to stop them from switching your smartphone out, with one they've made to look exactly like it and you never knowing it. You would continue to use it thinking all of the precautions you've used to protect yourself are working.. and the phone is telling you they are working.. but they are still spying. You know because governments REALLY do stuff like that: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/17/edward_snowden_g8_latest_nsa_leak_comes_as_world_leaders_gather_in_northern.html

So again. If you are truly THAT paranoid, that the NSA will be using Kinect to watch you in your boxers on your couch. Then why would you ever use or carry a smartphone? Why do you even live in the US? You need to get off the grid immediately. Find a private island south of Africa and go hide out there. But watch out for those birds that keep flying around in circles.

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post #17 of 141 Old 06-18-2013, 11:00 AM
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A) Mr. Fellow Canadian ; its been ousted in the Globe and Mail and CBC that the Canadian government has a similar program and has been helping the Americans.

What I wonder is, how secure is my BlackBerry?
If it's good enough for the US military to use that does that mean it's secure
? What about my military grade Thinkpad?
Are my bio-metrics really secure (HDD encryption/windows aside)

I'm more worried about some kid on youtube figuring out how to watch my kinnect than the government.
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post #18 of 141 Old 06-18-2013, 02:57 PM
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Yeah I read that too in the G&M and assumed as much. BBM is not known crackable (and it's well known that terrorists do use BBM because of that) but RIM have shown in the past they will agree to government requests to open it up (I think it was Pakistan or Bangledesh that was insisting RIM let them see behind the encryption and they eventually relented). BBM is not crackable, but if RIM as gatekeeper lets someone in then encryption doesn't mean anything anyway. So you're right, could be RIM has already secretly agreed with the Canadian government to open up all BBM records to them. Where I work a few years ago a VP told me as an anecdote that a CSIS agent had visited him in our office and he basically showed the agent the full contents of our client database to fulfil a secret request i.e. fishing expedition for purposes of "national security". At that time I assumed they had a warrant or whatever, but maybe not now that I have a bigger picture what's going with with PRISM and international co-operaton between the 5 Eyes nations. About your thinkpad with that biometric encryption, it's a joke, never has been secure. I'm very familiar with those thinkvantage laptops and it's pretty easy to circumvent simply because it's built upon Windows OS security. Super easy to get around, lots of teenage kids can crack your "military grade" thinkpad.

To Daekwan, you're exasperating me dude tongue.gif NSA can crack just about anything but as far as I know they don't have the computing power (no does anyone/thing on Earth) to be pro-actively cracking every single encrypted thing on the planet in real time. They would need to target you. PRISM is limited to metadata plus everything they can EASILY get a hold of (i.e. unencrypted stuff and/or where the telco or service provider cooperates with them, bypassing that pesky encryption they'd use). With Kinect etc we are accepting into our homes a "pre-cracked" device that XBOX Live NOC can tap into any second they want, and if MS co-operates with the NSA, which we now know they do without warrants and probable cause, then NSA has just as easy access too. BTW this paranoia began for me with Kinect on 360 (the current gen) before I knew anything of the NSA's activities. Just the fact that the XBL NOC and their 'banhammer' team can tap into your voicecom and of course Kinect video and even your livescreen as you play anytime they want because they are the "police" of the private XBL network was enough for me to keep my Kinect unplugged unless I was using it for a game. Some IT Security twerp in Redmond watching me jerk off or (^ my girlfriend on the couch between games? No thanks. (insert quick finish joke here haha)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5-YWjA1b8E in case you've all forgotten.

We don't know what the NSA can do and what the NSA can't do, unless you work there LOL? But I think most logical people would agree it's smart to lock the door to your house versus not lock the door to your house, even though there are people in the world who know how to pick locks or have the authority to smash down your door (but usually with a warrant or probable cause...right???) Plus, where's the evidence this stuff actually catches real criminals/terrorists? I have yet to hear a compelling reason why my personal liberty and right to privacy (a legal right we have here in Canada...just ask Facebook about that as they have had to change their whole privacy mechanisms just to conform to Canadian legislation) should be illegally overridden "for the greater good".
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post #19 of 141 Old 06-19-2013, 12:04 PM
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It's just dumb.

Offer a system without Kinect for less money. Just come out with a gaming console. Is it that difficult?

Dedicate all the power to the gaming and sell me a superior system for more money than your other "Do-it-all" system...or les

People that don't want this other stuff should be able to get what they want.

You know, kind of like they can with cell phones and every other modern technology.
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post #20 of 141 Old 06-19-2013, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

It's just dumb.

Offer a system without Kinect for less money. Just come out with a gaming console. Is it that difficult?

Dedicate all the power to the gaming and sell me a superior system for more money than your other "Do-it-all" system...or les

People that don't want this other stuff should be able to get what they want.

You know, kind of like they can with cell phones and every other modern technology.

You are pretty much describing the PS4, aside from the "for more money" aspect.

edit: I would be great for a similar option with the Xbone, for the xbone exclusives.
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post #21 of 141 Old 06-19-2013, 12:54 PM
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I was wondering how long it would take before a tinfoil hat thread was started with Kinect. I would have though that this forum would be immune. I guess not. all thing are process locally by software. The Kinect is just a sensor. None of the data are sent to MS and you can't actually turn every single feature of the kinect off. It has been mention an 10000 millions times before : If the NSA watch to track you, they will. they don't need Kinect. Just go outside your home and you will capture by hundreds of cameras. Your smartphone, FB, Twitter all easy access. If they want to know. they will. I think the major problem is that people think that privacy still exist today. that's hilarious.

Either way, you can always buy a different console if you are worried but word of advice. Sony hasn't done any better in protecting their user information (credit card stolen).
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post #22 of 141 Old 06-19-2013, 01:59 PM
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I was wondering how long it would take before a tinfoil hat thread was started with Kinect. I would have though that this forum would be immune. I guess not....I think the major problem is that people think that privacy still exist today. that's hilarious.

Wow no privacy exists huh?

Sounds like you are the one with the tinfoil hat.

On that note I think I will go crack a beer open, go down over the hill into my woods and relieve myself. Why? Because I can and it's natural. And...oh...it's private.
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post #23 of 141 Old 06-19-2013, 05:33 PM
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Thanks for the long and informative reply ultracat. I've often wondered about the Thinkpad's crack-ability, I always see them touting military grade in their PR material. I guess that's referring more to things such as heat/cold test's or "sand" test's.

Now I'm running Linux (Mint 15) with full disk encryption is that anymore secure?

Also more on topic. Can you imagine how great these would be for burglars? Crack into the kinnect, watch the house for while to see if no ones home, or if everyone has gone to bed.
. If no one is in/up, breaking in. Heck I'm surprised there isn't a synergistic collaboration with Rogers home security to control your home security system with xbox for easier and simplified use! tongue.gif

Does this mean no longer will we have to wait for Pairs Hilton videos to be stolen out of the house. We can just wait for celeb's to buy an xbox one tongue.gif




But on a really serious note....

What about that poor gay teenager who's roommate left a webcam w/server running and streamed him making out with his boyfriend in there dorm? He killed self when he found out.

This is serious. we could have college kids leaving kinnect running a chat server in dorms.
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post #24 of 141 Old 06-20-2013, 06:19 AM
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You're right. We should ban all webcams.
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post #25 of 141 Old 06-20-2013, 06:23 AM
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You're right. We should ban all webcams.
Phone camera's and baby monitors too.
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post #26 of 141 Old 06-20-2013, 06:36 AM
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@Ripeer - yes Linux is the best : )

@Andy / AHDTV - ban web cams, of course not, but it sure would be nice to not have them hard-wired to your computer/console/Internet connected device with NO option to really turn them off. My gf simply taped a piece of paper over the integrated webcam on her macbook. Problem solved. Phone cameras yes are a problem, baby monitors depends what type you're talking about really. The normal RF kind I wouldn't worry about unless you are so paranoid you think the FBI is sitting outside your house in a Flowers By Irene van. Any newfangled baby monitors that are Internet connected for example, then yes, could be a problem. And yes I know you guys are being sarcastic but yeah...this all boils down to the difference of opinion Daekwan and I were having. There seems to be two camps: people who are conscious of this stuff and do minor things to try and protect their privacy, and the other camp are people who 100% don't care or are lazy or whatever and also feel the need to make the people who do care about their privacy look like lunatics. Meh - I guess I'm a lunatic...with a normal life, a good job etc....but I guess I'm just stone cold crazy

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post #27 of 141 Old 06-20-2013, 06:38 AM
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Oh, and the cameras that help us park our cars. Surefire tracking device. Oh shoot, what about my alarm system cameras? I've unwittingly trapped myself with my own paranoia.
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post #28 of 141 Old 06-20-2013, 06:51 AM
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Ultracat, not saying your crazy at all. All those thoughts have crossed my mind at some point as well. Difference is I accepted the trade offs that come with technology. I just find it funny where we choose to plant our protest flag. No one has argued whether or not our privacy could be invaded. But I'm more paranoid than you. I say if someone wants to spy on me they will regardless of Kinect. As Daekwan said, we use so many more things in life that are more trackable why protest Kinect?
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post #29 of 141 Old 06-20-2013, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekwan View Post

You say you turn those features "off" on your phone. And you encrypt your email. As if that would stop an institution like the NSA from spying on you if they really wanted too.

Do you really believe the NSA cannot turn those services back "on" without you ever knowing? And still intercept your data? And still break your encryption and read all your communication? Think about that for a minute. The NSA wants to collect your information, but you've turned off a feature and are now safe. You really believe that the National Security Agency of the United States of America cannot access your phone because you've turned some things off. Really? Hold on a second.. while I literally fall on the floor laughing. rolleyes.gif



Unless your name is Jason Bourne.. I would think that if some government agency wants to spy on you.. there is little you could do to stop it. Especially since you are already carrying a consumer built smartphone on your at all times. Hell even if you could lock down your smartphone, whats to stop them from switching your smartphone out, with one they've made to look exactly like it and you never knowing it. You would continue to use it thinking all of the precautions you've used to protect yourself are working.. and the phone is telling you they are working.. but they are still spying. You know because governments REALLY do stuff like that: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/17/edward_snowden_g8_latest_nsa_leak_comes_as_world_leaders_gather_in_northern.html

So again. If you are truly THAT paranoid, that the NSA will be using Kinect to watch you in your boxers on your couch. Then why would you ever use or carry a smartphone? Why do you even live in the US? You need to get off the grid immediately. Find a private island south of Africa and go hide out there. But watch out for those birds that keep flying around in circles.

When I turn my phone off, it's off. It's not sitting there listening for key words so it will know when to turn active. A Smartphone is a device made for communications but I can still turn it off. So instead of just accepting that the government can spy on me, I would rather support policies that make it more difficult for them to do so. Frankly, it's not just the government that you have to worry about. Hackers want all this info as well and Game companies (Much less the government) have not shown they have the ability to fully protect my data. Why would I volunteer to give them more?
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post #30 of 141 Old 06-20-2013, 07:22 AM
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So you can't track and hunt down your phone when you turn it off? It doesn't pull in email or messages? I know there is a true off mode for most phones but how many people turn off their communications devices? Plus if one is so worried is their word that Kinect runs while unplugged (power strip off)?
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