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post #31 of 70 Old 12-04-2013, 10:39 AM
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The XBOne sends legacy DTS. Even if it did send DTS HD it would needs to be DTS-HD MA to. Be comparable to pcm. DTS-hd is equivalent to DD+ whic is still a lossy codec like legacy dd and DTS.

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post #32 of 70 Old 12-04-2013, 12:20 PM
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I was really unclear of this this weekend, and did about 4hours non-stop of research on it.

Basically what I got from all of my looking (and I'm no expert) is the Blu-ray format can NOT support anything past 24bit, so you'll never find a blu-ray movie in anything about 24bit color. And that "Deep Color" is 30bit and 36bit, which I basically read no source material supports this either, and the only thing that may support it in the future are games, but it'd be per game as there is no standard for color or sound in the gaming industry. What I read was the PS3 had "Deep Color" option and people claim it looked more vivid on this setting, and apparently that was true because setting it to Deep Color just reduced the black levels significantly, make it seem like there was more color in the picture, when really there was MORE color, because there was LESS black. And apparently setting it to a higher bit depth than the source material (blu-rays especially) will lead to "unnatural" colors, or more so the incorrect colors of the original source material intended. So to you it may look brighter or more vivid, but that's not how it's suppose to look and you're actually not getting the best picture possible.

So I set mine to 24-bit as I watch blu-rays on it, and want to watch those in the colors that were intended. I'll keep it that way until I hear of any games that support higher, which I haven't so far.

As far as sound options, I "thought" the DTS mode was just a poor choice of words for Bitstream, but playing with it, I don't think that's the case. I also have a PS4 and like the XB1 when I set it to "uncompressed" or Linear my receiver says "PCM". But on the PS4 when I set it "Bitstream" (in the blu-ray player, not the dashboard) and play a blu-ray, my receiver will say the appropriate signal like "TrueHD" or "DTSHDMaster" etc. I've tried this on a few movies on the PS4, and each had a different audio format, and the receiver displayed each correctly. When I ran the same movies on my XB1 on DTS mode, it just said "DTS" each time, so as some others have said, I think it's actually just doing the legacy DTS signal, which is weird to me, more so there is no bitstream option, guessing that'll change.

In my own testing before that though, I will admit the DTS sounded better than the "uncompressed" options, I think maybe because it's just starts at a higher volume though the more I played with it, but maybe that's just me.

But yeah, this is basically the info I've gathered in my researching. I'm not saying I'm 100% right, just this is what I've gathered from how much I looked at it, any "experts" that want to chime in feel free too.

Thanks
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post #33 of 70 Old 12-04-2013, 09:39 PM
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Deep Color will reduce banding so that will make gradations smoother looking. Also, look up Sonys Mastered in 4K BluRays. They run on regular players and feature x.v. color (extended color gamut). Xbox One will be able to take advantage of those.


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post #34 of 70 Old 12-18-2013, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizman7 View Post

As far as sound options, I "thought" the DTS mode was just a poor choice of words for Bitstream, but playing with it, I don't think that's the case. I also have a PS4 and like the XB1 when I set it to "uncompressed" or Linear my receiver says "PCM". But on the PS4 when I set it "Bitstream" (in the blu-ray player, not the dashboard) and play a blu-ray, my receiver will say the appropriate signal like "TrueHD" or "DTSHDMaster" etc. I've tried this on a few movies on the PS4, and each had a different audio format, and the receiver displayed each correctly. When I ran the same movies on my XB1 on DTS mode, it just said "DTS" each time, so as some others have said, I think it's actually just doing the legacy DTS signal, which is weird to me, more so there is no bitstream option, guessing that'll change.

In my own testing before that though, I will admit the DTS sounded better than the "uncompressed" options, I think maybe because it's just starts at a higher volume though the more I played with it, but maybe that's just me.

But yeah, this is basically the info I've gathered in my researching. I'm not saying I'm 100% right, just this is what I've gathered from how much I looked at it, any "experts" that want to chime in feel free too.

DTS HD Master audio is a lossless codec. ie. not compressed. Question is, what codec is the Xbox One applying with the "DTS Digital Surround" setting? It appears it may be DTS HD Master Audio.
PCM will pass the uncompressed sound through but already processed by the Xbox One.
Bitstream is uncompressed sound that is passed but not processed. I would prefer a bitstream option so that my pre-pro processes the sound. This option is not available with the Xbox One.

Here's some info for you.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/DTS/PS4/Xbox_One/The_PS4_and_Xbox_One_Utilize_DTS_to_Carry_New_Sound_Formats/13172
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post #35 of 70 Old 12-18-2013, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jszei View Post

DTS HD Master audio is a lossless codec. ie. not compressed. Question is, what codec is the Xbox One applying with the "DTS Digital Surround" setting? It appears it may be DTS HD Master Audio.
PCM will pass the uncompressed sound through but already processed by the Xbox One.
Bitstream is uncompressed sound that is passed but not processed. I would prefer a bitstream option so that my pre-pro processes the sound. This option is not available with the Xbox One.

Here's some info for you.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/DTS/PS4/Xbox_One/The_PS4_and_Xbox_One_Utilize_DTS_to_Carry_New_Sound_Formats/13172

WHen DTS is selected it is using lossy, legacy DTS for output.

Nothing I've seen on either system when DTS was selected was anything but, lossy, legacy DTS. Both next gen systems need some serious work on their audio. They both have issues with audio output.

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post #36 of 70 Old 12-29-2013, 07:56 AM
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I saw a setting for BIT DEPTH, options are 24, 30, 36.

Any ideas?  Will setting it to high mess up picture? 

Whew. Been a while since I posted on here. eek.gif

The guys at HDTVtest report a small gamma anomaly, but don't report which space they tested (8, 10, 12 bit or all). I see evidence of a gamma issue on dynamic range hi/low patterns at 8-bit, but not 12-bit. Trying to confirm what they measured...

I haven't gamed on XBO yet, so I can't speak to the lag of sampling to 12-bit.

HDMI audio output on XBO is so wonky right now that I'd set it to whatever makes you happy. smile.gif

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post #37 of 70 Old 12-29-2013, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by home_theatre_man View Post

Whew. Been a while since I posted on here. eek.gif

The guys at HDTVtest report a small gamma anomaly, but don't report which space they tested (8, 10, 12 bit or all). I see evidence of a gamma issue on dynamic range hi/low patterns at 8-bit, but not 12-bit. Trying to confirm what they measured...

I haven't gamed on the One yet, so I can't speak to the lag of sampling to 12-bit.

HDMI audio output on the One is so wonky right now that I'd set it to whatever makes you happy. smile.gif

AUdio output is crazy on both systems. With both of them you need to change the audio output options to be able to match the number of channels with the source material. I can do it manually with the XBOne, but the major issue with the XBOne audio is that with 5.1 content, the surround channel audio comes out of the rear surrounds instead of the normal surround channels. That should be an easy fix since it's just mapped incorrectly, but someone needs to realize that it's an issue first.

I've left my video output on 8 bit since my DUO converts everything to 12 bit anyway.

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post #38 of 70 Old 12-29-2013, 01:21 PM
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Audio output is crazy on both systems. With both of them you need to change the audio output options to be able to match the number of channels with the source material. I can do it manually with the XBOne, but the major issue with the XBOne audio is that with 5.1 content, the surround channel audio comes out of the rear surrounds instead of the normal surround channels. That should be an easy fix since it's just mapped incorrectly, but someone needs to realize that it's an issue first.
Yep. I'm reporting a bug list to MS this week, but I suspect they already know most of it. Is your Side/Back 5.1 mapping issue just with apps?

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post #39 of 70 Old 12-29-2013, 03:56 PM
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Yep. I'm reporting a bug list to MS this week, but I suspect they already know most of it. Is your back/side 5.1 mapping issue just with apps?

It seems to be any 5.1 content. Even when I switch to 5.1 output it is still coming out of the wrong surround channels.. 7.1 content is fine though.

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post #40 of 70 Old 12-29-2013, 07:33 PM
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It seems to be any 5.1 content. Even when I switch to 5.1 output it is still coming out of the wrong surround channels. 7.1 content is fine though.
Would you mind checking one more time to confirm? I see the bug with Netflix and VUDU, but not BD/DVD. The decoded 6-channel track maps correctly inside the 8-channel carrier (Bl/Br dark).

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post #41 of 70 Old 12-29-2013, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by home_theatre_man View Post

Would you mind checking one more time to confirm? I see the bug with Netflix and VUDU, but not BD/DVD. The decoded 6-channel track maps correctly inside the 8-channel carrier (Bl/Br dark).

It was definitely with BDs too. I was using an audio test where they tell you the channel before the test tone. When the XBOne decodes the 5.1 audio and sends it out as 5.1 or 7.1 PCM the rear Channels we're incorrect.. If it was 7.1 audio then the tones came out of the proper channels.


I better go check again to make sure though.

EDIT: Maybe it wasn't with BDs. I had done so many tests with the XBOne and the PS4 it's getting hard to remember all the issues I ran across. I just tried the audio test from one of the Disney BD titles and the audio channels were correct for the 5.1 EX test and 7.1 test when I had the XBOne set for 5.1 pcm and 7.1 pcm output. I could have sworn I did a test from a disc earlier that had an issue.

SO it must just be from the HDMI input and the apps when the surround audio incorrectly comes out of the rear surrounds . Because I know Amazon has the issue it because I was watching that tonight, and the HDMI input from my TiVo has the issue and I watched that today, and Netflix has it too. But I could have sworn a month ago that I ran across the issue from a BD. But I guess not. Sorry for the confusion redface.gif

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post #42 of 70 Old 12-30-2013, 08:41 AM
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Doing an A/B test with my X1 games, I prefer the X1's picture when I use 36 bit. I have no idea why it makes a difference.

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post #43 of 70 Old 12-30-2013, 08:54 AM
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Doing an A/B test with my X1 games, I prefer the X1's picture when I use 36 bit instead. I have no idea why it makes a difference.

What looks different about it?

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post #44 of 70 Old 12-30-2013, 09:26 AM
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What looks different about it?

As an example:

In COD: Ghosts, when I am in the customize appearance menu (options on the left, soldier on the right)...the left side of that screen is light and transitions to dark towards the right side of the screen. When I set the X1 to 24-bit, the transition is not smooth (clear delineations from one lighter color to the next darker color). When I set the X1 to 36-bit, the transition is much smoother (the background changes evenly from lighter to darker).

Like, I said...I have no idea why this is so since it is my understanding that no current games utilize 36-bit depth, but something changes when I use that setting.

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Originally Posted by Nickff View Post

As an example:

In COD: Ghosts, when I am in the customize appearance menu (options on the left, soldier on the right)...the left side of that screen is light and transitions to dark towards the right side of the screen. When I set the X1 to 24-bit, the transition is not smooth (clear delineations from one lighter color to the next darker color). When I set the X1 to 36-bit, the transition is much smoother (the background changes evenly from lighter to darker).

Like, I said...I have no idea why this is so since it is my understanding that no current games utilize 36-bit depth, but something changes when I use that setting.

Do you have it set to full RGB by any chance?

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post #46 of 70 Old 12-30-2013, 09:57 AM
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Do you have it set to full RGB by any chance?

No. My whole setup is set to RGB limited.

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post #47 of 70 Old 12-30-2013, 10:14 AM
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No. My whole setup is set to RGB limited.

Hmm...my only guess then is that the scaling from 720p-1080p is better in 36-bit. Or they're messing something up in 24-bit. I seriously doubt the game itself is running in 36-bit.

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post #48 of 70 Old 12-30-2013, 10:41 AM
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I believe 36 bit is Deep Color (12 bit RGB) so this will eliminate banding and colors will look smoother overall. Now I wish the PS4 would support this!
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post #49 of 70 Old 12-30-2013, 10:46 AM
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I believe 36 bit is Deep Color (12 bit RGB) so this will eliminate banding and colors will look smoother overall. Now I wish the PS4 would support this!

I thought the PS4 does support deep color? I could have sworn i saw 36 bit output from my PS4 at some point. If not then it will be a feature added later since the PS3 could output in 36 bit too.

I didn't do any testing on my XBOne with 36 bit or 24 bit. Other than I think I had an issue if it was set to 30 bit. My DUO outputs everything in 36 bit so I didn't mess with it after putting it back on 24 bit output. But maybe I shoudl try my XBone for a few days on 36 bit output to see if i notice anything different with the games, apps, and TiVo input.

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post #50 of 70 Old 12-30-2013, 11:48 AM
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Currently PS4 has no deep color option. Only RGB limited/full setting and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Range setting.
It might support x.v. Color if Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr is set to full but I'm not so sure. Very disappointed in the limited video options.
You are correct PS3 supported all of the advanced video setting over time.

I have my Xbox one set to 36 bit w/ full range RGB. You should get some punchy colors w/ those settings. smile.gif
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post #51 of 70 Old 12-30-2013, 11:57 AM
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SO it must just be from the HDMI input and the apps when the surround audio incorrectly comes out of the rear surrounds . Because I know Amazon has the issue it because I was watching that tonight, and the HDMI input from my TiVo has the issue and I watched that today, and Netflix has it too. But I could have sworn a month ago that I ran across the issue from a BD. But I guess not. Sorry for the confusion redface.gif
No worries. Just wanted to confirm we're seeing the same issue before I report it. I'll post back if I hear something noteworthy.

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post #52 of 70 Old 01-09-2014, 07:26 AM
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Currently PS4 has no deep color option. Only RGB limited/full setting and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Range setting.
It might support x.v. Color if Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr is set to full but I'm not so sure. Very disappointed in the limited video options.
You are correct PS3 supported all of the advanced video setting over time.

I have my Xbox one set to 36 bit w/ full range RGB. You should get some punchy colors w/ those settings. smile.gif
Hello. What kind of tv do you have? If you don't mins me asking
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post #53 of 70 Old 01-09-2014, 11:01 AM
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Hello. What kind of tv do you have? If you don't mins me asking

I own Sony's new W900a. The big feature besides very low lag is the Triluminos display (12bit). I highly recommend it if you're in the market for a TV.
Its the best gaming TV you can buy. smile.gif
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post #54 of 70 Old 01-20-2014, 08:17 AM
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I own Sony's new W900a. The big feature besides very low lag is the Triluminos display (12bit). I highly recommend it if you're in the market for a TV.
Its the best gaming TV you can buy. smile.gif
That is the best tv i bought mine yesterday! I love it for gaming! What setting do you have yours on game original or game standard? And i also chose the 36bit which i hope is the better option! I want the best picture with the lowest lag do u have any other recommendations bud you seem to know alot thank you very much
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post #55 of 70 Old 01-29-2014, 11:41 PM
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The guys at HDTVtest report a small gamma anomaly, but don't report which space they tested (8, 10, 12 bit or all). I see evidence of a gamma issue on dynamic range hi/low patterns at 8-bit, but not 12-bit. Trying to confirm what they measured...
The 8-bit gamma issue I noticed is unrelated to what HDTVtest measured. It was a problem with the HDMI switcher I was using, not XBO.

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post #56 of 70 Old 02-10-2014, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone else noticed a bug in the microsoft calibrate program?  I have had my setup on LOW/Low HDMI and the lower eye shows up perfectly ,  today I go in and have to set HDMI to Normal just to get the lower eye to show up when before it was the complete opposite.  Maybe its because I now have color space on my TV set to native now, not sure what it was on before but native is the "game mode" STANDARD mode default.

I recently did a factory reset to my Sammy plasma F8500.

It just blows me away that there are so many inconsistancies, so many different results for different people.  In this day and age of HDTV's it should be pretty simple and straight forward,  set TV to this and Xbox to this.
 

The debate on HDMI black levels and scaler is mind boggling.

 

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=721277     Scaler debate

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=722069    Crushed blacks, HDMI, and RGB Limited vs Full, debate

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post #57 of 70 Old 02-10-2014, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sfumat0 View Post

Has anyone else noticed a bug in the Microsoft calibrate program?

I haven't had time to delve into the TV calibration app yet. I ran through it quickly on one of my own displays; its results seemed reasonably close to my reference settings, so I moved on to something else. I'll look into it when time permits and post anything noteworthy.

My setup of the XBO was done using the BD player, which is currently the only way I can observe and measure patterns that I trust from XBO. On my reference Samsung display, which has been calibrated to D65 using a pattern generator, the 'TV (RGB limited)' setting for XBO and the 'Low' setting for the Samsung produce results that are within acceptable tolerances compared to the pattern generator.

I won't comment on games, because I have no objective way to verify their performance. Suffice it to say that I haven't seen anything overtly ugly using the settings for BD.

I have not calibrated the Samsung input for 'Normal', so I did not test 'PC (RGB full)' from XBO. Honestly, I am content with the results using studio RGB, so playing with PC levels isn't high on my priority list.tongue.gif

Hope this provides some small degree of reassurance amidst the madness!

Chase

Chase Walton
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PMI, Ltd. / MSR, Inc.

Home Theater Design and Calibration Insider

My comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of PMI, Ltd. or MSR, Inc.

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post #58 of 70 Old 08-30-2014, 07:16 AM
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So basically, not really any solid guidelines for 24 vs 30 vs 36 bit, or for TV vs PC colourspace?? All work on my TV (LG plasma) and I currently have it on 36 bit, PC colourspace but haven't done any real tests/comparisons as yet.

As for the audio issue, what seems sorely missing is a "Native" or "Pass-through" output mode. Without that, no matter what you select, the XBOX is the device decoding the source audio. Then, it either outputs that decoded audio as PCM, or *re-encodes* it as plain-jane DD or DTS. As such, if your receiver supports multi-channel PCM (ie, you hear audio with this setting), the DD and DTS output modes would **never** be preferred.
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post #59 of 70 Old 08-30-2014, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyG View Post
So basically, not really any solid guidelines for 24 vs 30 vs 36 bit, or for TV vs PC colourspace?.



Some switchers/routers/displays may look slightly better or worse with 8, 10, or 12 bit. It depends on their processing. This is relatively easy to determine with the right test patterns. TV (Studio RGB) should typically be used for TVs, PC (PC RGB) for computer monitors. If you use PC with a TV, make sure the TV has a PC RGB mode and correctly maps the full 0-255 range. On a correctly calibrated display, TV and PC should look virtually identical.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyG View Post
As for the audio issue, what seems sorely missing is a "Native" or "Pass-through" output mode. Without that, no matter what you select, the XBOX is the device decoding the source audio.

The priority should be correcting the routing error in Uncompressed 7.1 mode, because that is a true error. As for the rest, there is a lot of speculation about what is possible and what is expedient for Microsoft. My sources at Microsoft indicate that improvements are forthcoming, but there is no timetable.

Chase Walton
Technical Editor
PMI, Ltd. / MSR, Inc.

Home Theater Design and Calibration Insider

My comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of PMI, Ltd. or MSR, Inc.

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post #60 of 70 Old 08-30-2014, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyG View Post
So basically, not really any solid guidelines for 24 vs 30 vs 36 bit, or for TV vs PC colourspace?? All work on my TV (LG plasma) and I currently have it on 36 bit, PC colourspace but haven't done any real tests/comparisons as yet.

As for the audio issue, what seems sorely missing is a "Native" or "Pass-through" output mode. Without that, no matter what you select, the XBOX is the device decoding the source audio. Then, it either outputs that decoded audio as PCM, or *re-encodes* it as plain-jane DD or DTS. As such, if your receiver supports multi-channel PCM (ie, you hear audio with this setting), the DD and DTS output modes would **never** be preferred.
Since bluray is 8bit 8 x 3RGB = 24 bit there will be no benefit for higher bit depth. We might see 36 bit in the future for UHD devices but nothing as of yet.
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