Do you have audio sync issues (esp. with TrueHD) on Xbox 360 HD DVD playback? - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Do you have lip sync issues with Xbox 360 HD DVD playback
Yes, but only with TrueHD tracks. 22 8.12%
Yes, but only with Dolby Digital Plus tracks. 12 4.43%
Yes, with both TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus. 39 14.39%
No, I have no audio sync issues at all. 186 68.63%
Other. (Please explain.) 12 4.43%
Voters: 271. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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May 28, 2007 EDIT:

Basically all the significant sync issues with discs I purchased before the Xbox 360 HD DVD Update came out have been fixed. However there is a new one...

The Matrix is out of sync.



Reports are that it's also out of sync with the Toshibas.


Some from Microsoft had said that The Matrix had been tested, but I guess this was overlooked.


-------

So, my brand new Xbox 360 HD DVD drive setup has audio/video synchronization issues, at least with certain discs and audio tracks.

I only have one TrueHD disc, Batman Begins, and it's with that track that I notice it the most. Actually, unless my eyes and ears deceive me, it seems like the audio lags the video (instead of the other way around, which is what is often reported with other hardware).

Could the Xbox 360 be lagging in audio because of the requirement of decoding TrueHD and then re-encoding it DD5.1 is too much via software? Is decoding TrueHD harder than decoding Dolby Digital Plus? I also wonder if I'm getting slight audio sync issues with other DD+ tracks, but if there it's pretty minor.

I have NO audio sync issues whatsoever with anything else, including 360 gaming, 360 DVD playback, WMV trailers on the 360, two DVD players (including one progressive scan one) with either DD or DTS, or my HD PVR.

My setup:

My Toshiba CW34XC2 34" widescreen CRT and Kenwood VR-510 receiver are hooked up to all my components through a Zektor HDS4.1 component & digital audio switcher. The Zektor is hooked up to the receiver and the Xbox 360 both via optical. ie.

DVD 1 (480p) --> Zektor
DVD 2 (480i) --> Zektor
Xbox (1080i) --> Zektor
PVR (1080i) --> Zektor

Zektor --> TV + receiver

Do you also have sync issues, and if so, with what? I note that others have noticed lip sync problems with TrueHD as well, but with different discs (like Constantine) and on Toshiba standalones. I don't see many reports of this problem with the Xbox 360 setup, but I wonder if that's just because it's so new.

Is this a hardware issue, an HD DVD disc issue, or both?

EDIT:

The lag IS definitely there with Dolby Digital Plus tracks too. It's very mild, and I suspect most people wouldn't notice it, but it's real. I see/hear it on Batman Begins DD+, King Kong DD+, and Pitch Black DD+ tracks. I have to pay very close attention to see it, but I'm now 100% convinced of it.

Either my receiver/setup is lagging with decoding 640 Kbps DD, or else Microsoft's implementation of audio output synchronization needs some more work.
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post #2 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 09:06 AM
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None so far, but I have only watched four disks.

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post #3 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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So it's not just me...

Somebody else at the Xbox forums has independently reported the same issue.

"When I put in the Batman Begins HD DVD in the player, it loaded up and played great. Once I switched the audio track to Dolby TrueHD the audio started actually lagging. It is behind by only a fraction of a second, but is very noticable. If I switched the audio track to Dolby Digital Plus there are no sync issues. The same thing happens when running the sound directly to my Samsung LCD TV and through my 5.1 sound system (hooked up using optical), so this definitely seems to be a system-thing, such as the 360 not being able to transcode the TrueHD fast enough. My 360 is hooked up to my TV using component."


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJ.Cone View Post

None so far, but I have only watched four disks.

Do you have any TrueHD discs?
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post #4 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 09:19 AM
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Batman and Phantom of the Opera. I think traiing Day had it as well but I did not watch it yet, just looked at some scenes.

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post #5 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJ.Cone View Post

Batman and Phantom of the Opera. I think traiing Day had it as well but I did not watch it yet, just looked at some scenes.

Yeah, but were you actually using the TrueHD tracks or just the DD+ tracks?

Others at AVS are also reporting TrueHD sync problems with Constantine (on Toshiba standalones). I don't have Constantine so I can't test it.
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post #6 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 09:49 AM
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Yeah, I wanna say I saw a slight sync problem on Batman Begins on the True HD track too.
I was hoping it was my imagination. Damn.
And yes the audio seemed behind the video.

No problems on the DD+ on BB, KK, or MI:3.
OMG, LOL could I use any more acronymns?
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post #7 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottro View Post

Yeah, I wanna say I saw a slight sync problem on Batman Begins on the True HD track too.
I was hoping it was my imagination. Damn.
And yes the audio seemed behind the video.

No problems on the DD+ on BB, KK, or MI:3.
OMG, LOL could I use any more acronymns?

Vote in the poll!

P.S. Those audio lag correcting receivers will NOT solve this problem. Why? Cuz usually the problem is a TV with video lag. As I understand it, these receivers (and standalone boxes) will "correct" the problem by ADDING a delay to the audio.

In the case of the Xbox 360 with TrueHD tracks, that would just make things worse.

I wonder if transcoding to 1.5 Mbps DTS would be less laggy than transcoding to 640 Kbps DD. Amir said they were considering adding DTS output support to the Xbox 360.
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post #8 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottro View Post

No problems on the DD+ on BB, KK, or MI:3.
OMG, LOL could I use any more acronymns?

You forgot "NP"

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post #9 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

Vote in the poll!

P.S. Those audio lag correcting receivers will NOT solve this problem. Why? Cuz usually the problem is a TV with video lag. As I understand it, these receivers (and standalone boxes) will "correct" the problem by ADDING a delay to the audio.

In the case of the Xbox 360 with TrueHD tracks, that would just make things worse.

I wonder if transcoding to 1.5 Mbps DTS would be less laggy than transcoding to 640 Kbps DD. Amir said they were considering adding DTS output support to the Xbox 360.

Yeah, my receiver has a function to correct sync but like you said, it adds delay, that's what sucks...we need the audio AHEAD of the video...
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post #10 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJ.Cone View Post

You forgot "NP"

THX!
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post #11 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottro View Post

Yeah, my receiver has a function to correct sync but like you said, it adds delay, that's what sucks...we need the audio AHEAD of the video...

Since there is no way (obviously) for the receiver to output sound before it gets the signal... I guess one would have to add a delay to the TV set...

Turn all those image processing options on!!
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post #12 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhan View Post

Since there is no way (obviously) for the receiver to output sound before it gets the signal... I guess one would have to add a delay to the TV set...

Turn all those image processing options on!!

I think I'll just enjoy at least 6 beers now before enabling TrueHD soundtracks, that should add the necessary delay in my internal video processing...
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post #13 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


I also wonder if I'm getting slight audio sync issues with other DD+ tracks, but if there it's pretty minor.

The lag IS definitely there with Dolby Digital Plus tracks too. It's very mild, and I suspect most people wouldn't notice it, but it's real. I see/hear it on Batman Begins DD+, King Kong DD+, and Pitch Black DD+ tracks. I have to pay very close attention to see it, but I'm now 100% convinced of it.

I note some other people who have voted in the poll have also noticed this too.
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post #14 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 07:57 PM
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I just watch Constantine with the 360 HD DVD addon and didnt notice any lag issues.

BTW the Constantine HD DVD video is not as good as the others HD DVD that I picked up (Riddick, Pitch Black, Gran Prix, K Kong, Phantom and Last Samurai). Its just barely better then the DVD version thru my HTPC setup. Not worth to upgrade if you have the DVD.

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You get old because you stop playing.
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post #15 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

The lag IS definitely there with Dolby Digital Plus tracks too. It's very mild, and I suspect most people wouldn't notice it, but it's real. I see/hear it on Batman Begins DD+, King Kong DD+, and Pitch Black DD+ tracks. I have to pay very close attention to see it, but I'm now 100% convinced of it.

I note some other people who have voted in the poll have also noticed this too.

Ok, here's a crazy theory:

Old CRTs are known to have minimal video processing delays, because they do a lot less processing than some newer TVs.

However, many newer TVs do all sorts of processing, and add delay in the video output. Put that very slightly delayed video together with the slightly delayed audio of the Xbox 360 HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus tracks, and the delays cancel each other out. IOW, a modern TV with the Xbox 360 = no significant net delay.

However, on an older but fast CRT like mine the DD+ --> DD audio transcoding delay of the Xbox 360 may become noticeable.

Either way, I hope this is fixable (even with a software transcoder like the Xbox 360).
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post #16 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 08:47 PM
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I tested with my 4 HD-DVD's that have TrueHD tracks - Troy, Batman, Constantine and V4V. The only noticeable issue was with Batman, if there was any with the other discs I didnt see it. I only sampled random scenes with lots of dialog and didnt watch the whole movie through so I'm not sure if this would be a good enough test to confirm but so far Batman seems to be the major culprit.

DD+ seemed fine to me.
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post #17 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efjay View Post

I tested with my 4 HD-DVD's that have TrueHD tracks - Troy, Batman, Constantine and V4V. The only noticeable issue was with Batman, if there was any with the other discs I didnt see it. I only sampled random scenes with lots of dialog and didnt watch the whole movie through so I'm not sure if this would be a good enough test to confirm but so far Batman seems to be the major culprit.

DD+ seemed fine to me.

Thanks. What setup do you have?

Constantine TrueHD has been mentioned as having a problem with Toshiba standalones, but not yet with the Xbox 360 HD DVD. However, that may be because the thread for Constantine TrueHD sync issues is so old. It's a thread that preceded the release of the 360 add-on.
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post #18 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

Thanks. What setup do you have?

Constantine TrueHD has been mentioned as having a problem with Toshiba standalones, but not yet with the Xbox 360 HD DVD. However, that may be because the thread for Constantine TrueHD sync issues is so old. It's a thread that preceded the release of the 360 add-on.

I remember the thread on Constantine, I was expecting that one to have sync issues but didnt see any. I have a Denon 7.1 speaker system driven by a Samsung 6.1 HTIB amp. Optical cables are Audioquest.
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post #19 of 147 Old 11-16-2006, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efjay View Post

I remember the thread on Constantine, I was expecting that one to have sync issues but didnt see any. I have a Denon 7.1 speaker system driven by a Samsung 6.1 HTIB amp. Optical cables are Audioquest.

Actually, I was wondering about your TV. Do you know if it has any video lag?

If your TV has some mild inherent lag, any audio lag may not be as noticeable.
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post #20 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

Actually, I was wondering about your TV. Do you know if it has any video lag?

If your TV has some mild inherent lag, any audio lag may not be as noticeable.

My tv is a Dell 37" LCD, cant say I notice any lag from tv viewing or playing games.
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post #21 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 07:36 AM
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How are you reproducing the TrueHD track with a xBox 360? Does the 360 HD DVD player have a decoder built in for True HD? And even if it does, according to the Dolby report (see link below) in order to receive TrueHD you have to use either HDMI or six channel analog inputs, neither of which the xBox 360 has. So how are you sending the audio to your receiver in order to generate TrueHD? Maybe that is the cause of your problem?

http://www.dolby.com/promo/hd/connector_diagrams.html

I believe that all HD dvd's, either HD DVD or BlueRay, have a HD soundtrack like TrueHD but very few AVR units can reproduce it. Actually, I am not sure that there are any receivers that are able to reproduce it on the market yet. Simply having an HDMI input is not enough, they must be able to decode the signal as well. For this reason, the current generation of stand alone HD players, such as the Toshiba, incorporate the decoding internally and therefore can send the TrueHD signal to the receiver. But they still have to use HDMI or six channel analog to get it there, and the xBox has neither. Maybe your receiver is taking the audio and converting it into DD 5.1 and this conversion process is creating an audio lag? Try it on regular DD or DTS and see if you still have the lag problems.
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post #22 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheel72 View Post

How are you reproducing the TrueHD track with a xBox 360? Does the 360 HD DVD player have a decoder built in for True HD? And even if it does, according to the Dolby report (see link below) in order to receive TrueHD you have to use either HDMI or six channel analog inputs, neither of which the xBox 360 has. So how are you sending the audio to your receiver in order to generate TrueHD? Maybe that is the cause of your problem?

http://www.dolby.com/promo/hd/connector_diagrams.html

I believe that all HD dvd's, either HD DVD or BlueRay, have a HD soundtrack like TrueHD but very few AVR units can reproduce it. Actually, I am not sure that there are any receivers that are able to reproduce it on the market yet. Simply having an HDMI input is not enough, they must be able to decode the signal as well. For this reason, the current generation of stand alone HD players, such as the Toshiba, incorporate the decoding internally and therefore can send the TrueHD signal to the receiver. But they still have to use HDMI or six channel analog to get it there, and the xBox has neither. Maybe your receiver is taking the audio and converting it into DD 5.1 and this conversion process is creating an audio lag? Try it on regular DD or DTS and see if you still have the lag problems.

This has been discussed before. Check out the Xbox 360 HD DVD FAQ thread.

TrueHD support is mandatory in the HD DVD spec (although the minimum spec is that only TrueHD 2.0 needs to be supported for output). The 360 will decode a TrueHD 5.1 track, and then it re-encodes it to DD 5.1 for playback on current receivers.

Yes, it's very possible that this TrueHD --> DD5.1 transcoding (in the 360) is causing a lag in the audio. In fact that possibility has already been mentioned here. However, we don't know if this is really the issue. It's just a theory, since we don't have inside info.

However, I also do hear a very slight lag with DD+ tracks as well but it's minor. As for DD or DTS tracks, most HD DVDs don't have either format. Note though that the DD would still need to be decoded internally IIRC, because the player needs to mix in player sounds and then reencode that to DD before output.
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post #23 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 07:57 AM
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audio sync problems with xbox 360 hd-dvd add-on

I noticed significant lip sync problems with "grand Prix" hd-dvd. To my eyes and ears the voices are delayed compared to video. It was so noticeable to me that i thought i was watching a dubbed foreign film. I can understand, however, how many would overlook it if they were not paying close attention. According to review of this hd-dvd at high-def digest website this movie has "dolby digital plus" soundtrack only. Their review makes no mention of audiosync problems, which makes me suspect that the 360 add-on is the culprit. Unfortunately, I do not possess a stand alone hd-dvd player to do a/b comparison. FWIW i am using official xbox 360 hd/av cable with optical into a yamaha receiver. sony 32" xbr1 lcd.

question:
is this problem evident on stand alone hd-dvd players? implicating the movie itself or hd-dvd platform as the cause? OR is the 360 add-on deficient.
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post #24 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

This has been discussed before. Check out the Xbox 360 HD DVD FAQ thread.

TrueHD support is mandatory in the HD DVD spec (although the minimum spec is that only TrueHD 2.0 needs to be supported for output). The 360 will decode a TrueHD 5.1 track, and then it re-encodes it to DD 5.1 for playback on current receivers.

Yes, it's very possible that this TrueHD --> DD5.1 transcoding (in the 360) is causing a lag in the audio. In fact that possibility has already been mentioned here. However, we don't know if this is really the issue. It's just a theory, since we don't have inside info.

However, I also do hear a very slight lag with DD+ tracks as well but it's minor. As for DD or DTS tracks, most HD DVDs don't have either format. Note though that the DD would still need to be decoded internally IIRC, because the player needs to mix in player sounds and then reencode that to DD before output.

yes, this is what I was talking about. From the posting it seemed that some were under the impression that they were receiving TrueHD soundtracks, instead of a coverted track. ANd yes, this conversion may be the cause of the lag. And since the conversion is being done in the player, as I understand it, this may be the issue. Unfortunately, with the xBox, you have no other option as it is incapable of outputing a TrueHD signal (no HDMI or analog outputs). The same can be said for DD+. For those disc that do have optional DD 5.1 or DTS tracks (if there are any?) does switching to them get rid of the lag problem?
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post #25 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheel72 View Post

yes, this is what I was talking about. From the posting it seemed that some were under the impression that they were receiving TrueHD soundtracks, instead of a coverted track. ANd yes, this conversion may be the cause of the lag. And since the conversion is being done in the player, as I understand it, this may be the issue. Unfortunately, with the xBox, you have no other option as it is incapable of outputing a TrueHD signal (no HDMI or analog outputs). The same can be said for DD+. For those disc that do have optional DD 5.1 or DTS tracks (if there are any?) does switching to them get rid of the lag problem?

Well, like I said, IIRC DTS and DD 5.1 would still need to be decoded internally. The player sounds are mixed in after the decode, and then it would be re-encoded to DD 5.1 before output.

So, there is still potential for lag there. However, my guess is it's a lot easier to decode DD 5.1 than it is 1.5 Mbps DD+.


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Originally Posted by eps3 View Post

audio sync problems with xbox 360 hd-dvd add-on

I noticed significant lip sync problems with "grand Prix" hd-dvd. To my eyes and ears the voices are delayed compared to video. It was so noticeable to me that i thought i was watching a dubbed foreign film. I can understand, however, how many would overlook it if they were not paying close attention. According to review of this hd-dvd at high-def digest website this movie has "dolby digital plus" soundtrack only. Their review makes no mention of audiosync problems, which makes me suspect that the 360 add-on is the culprit. Unfortunately, I do not possess a stand alone hd-dvd player to do a/b comparison. FWIW i am using official xbox 360 hd/av cable with optical into a yamaha receiver. sony 32" xbr1 lcd.

Ouch. So your audio sync issues with DD+ sound even worse than mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eps3 View Post

question:
is this problem evident on stand alone hd-dvd players? implicating the movie itself or hd-dvd platform as the cause? OR is the 360 add-on deficient.

Somebody has reported sync problems with Constantine TrueHD, with the Toshiba standalone (firmware 2.0).
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post #26 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 08:33 AM
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the hd add on is having all kinds of problems with sound, just check the hddvd player forum. DD+ sound tracks sound awful.
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post #27 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSpeed6 View Post

the hd add on is having all kinds of problems with sound, just check the hddvd player forum. DD+ sound tracks sound awful.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with those posts. DD+ --> DD definitely sounds different from TrueHD --> DD. However, if you turn up the volume, some of the differences go away, since it seems some of the difference is due to the volumes. I think I still may prefer the TrueHD --> DD mix over the DD+ --> DD mix, but overall, I think both are reasonable.

Lip sync problems are a much bigger issue IMO, but YMMV.
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post #28 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 08:45 AM
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pop in a SD dvd version of king kong, blows the hddvd version away.
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post #29 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSpeed6 View Post

pop in a SD dvd version of king kong, blows the hddvd version away.

I have SD King Kong. The mix is definitely different, and I might prefer the SD DVD's track, but I wouldn't say it blows it away once you adjust for levels.

But then again, I'm probably not the best to judge, since I don't have my subwoofer connected at the moment. P!sses off my neighbours too much.

Either way, that's a completely separate issue. Even if there is something wonky about the DD+ --> DD mix, it's an issue that doesn't concern me that much, at least with my current subwoofer-less setup.

The lip sync issue concerns me much more, and there is that whole other thread about KK DD+ --> DD transcoding on the 360 anyway.
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post #30 of 147 Old 11-17-2006, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by eps3 View Post

I noticed significant lip sync problems with "grand Prix" hd-dvd. To my eyes and ears the voices are delayed compared to video. It was so noticeable to me that i thought i was watching a dubbed foreign film. I can understand, however, how many would overlook it if they were not paying close attention.

I've watched Grand Prix and didn't notice a problem. That said, it was the first HD-DVD I watched and I might not have been attuned to the problem. I've since watched Firewall and also didn't notice audio lag. But that movie was so extraordinarily bad I may not have been paying close enough attention to it.
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